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ForNarnia<3
01-07-2006, 11:47 AM
I heard that Narnia was based off of the bible... can anyone elaborate and explain how and who the characters represent? Thanks so much!!

Aslan's Beloved Daughter
01-07-2006, 03:37 PM
I am perplexed about the same thing, too. I know about Aslan, but the others are all confusing.

Hope96
01-07-2006, 03:43 PM
You guys need to just search around the site more. There are NUMEROUS threads all on this subject. It is a HUGE topic of debate.

WiseEdmund
01-08-2006, 10:43 AM
in case like this i always like to tell people to just pick up the gospels and read them. It' not really that different to reading the narnia books(except for the lack of fantasy.... or at least that's how i find it). i can assure you that you won't be disappointed :)

Stina
01-08-2006, 12:43 PM
Hopefully you know that Aslan represents Jesus Christ, who gave up his life for us all.

Edmund represents mans sinful nature. (Adam and Eve in the garden)

The White Witch represents Satan, the father of all lies, the beautiful deciever.

The beavers represent John the Baptist, who was sent by God to prepare the way for Jesus's coming.

I'm doing reserch on the rest
God bless and I pray you will see that Jesus is the true Lion!!

narnianfoxx
01-08-2006, 04:13 PM
there are many many meanings for the characters...i do not remember them all but i can tell you this much...

alsan is the Christ figure

Edmund is man's sinful nature

the white witch (and also the green lady in SC) is satan

the whole thing with the donkey, ape, ginger, and all of that...that represents the antichrist and false prophet

some like to say that tash is also like satan...

places and events represent other things too

the creation of narnia is also a parallel to the creation of the universe by God

stone table is the Cross of Calvary

the entire last battle is said to portray the final days, like armagedon and such

and there is much more, id be glad to find it and post it later

lamer
01-08-2006, 09:17 PM
But remember, he did not intend for the book to be a complete allegory of the Bible... but it more "seeped in" when he was creating the book.

Don't want to start a debate with that, just saying...

inkspot
01-09-2006, 02:32 PM
Yes, here is what CS Lewis himself said when someone wrote to him asking what biblical characters Nikabrik and Reepicheep represent:

You are mistaken when you think that everything in the books "represents" something in this world. Things do that in The Pilgrim's Progress but I'm not writing in that way. I did not say to myself "Let us represent Jesus as He really is in our world by a Lion in Narnia": I said "Let us suppose that there were a land like Narnia and that the Son of God, as He became a Man in our world, became a Lion there, and then imagine what would happen." If you think about it, you will see that it is quite a different thing. So the answer to your first two questions is that Reepicheep and Nick-i-brick don't, in that sense, represent anyone. But of course anyone in our world who devotes his whole life to seeking Heaven will be like Reepicheep, and anyone who wants some worldy thing so badly that he is ready to use wicked means to get it will be likely to behave like Nick-i-brick.

See, there is no one-to-one correspondence with people in the Bible, except for Aslan/Jesus.

WiseEdmund
01-09-2006, 03:20 PM
See, there is no one-to-one correspondence with people in the Bible, except for Aslan/Jesus.

i agree wholeheartedly.upon reading the books it's very hard to apply any biblical character to anyone except Aslan. What i feel is that each character comes very close to representing a very dodgy form of archetype. It can be seen in all of the books i've read so far. Edmund is the one who follow's the proverbial road to hell filled with good intentions. Then there is Shasta who has discovered new hope and is learning how to cope with his new life. Or else there's Susan whose fearful and over logical. These are all characters we can relate to in some way or another and in the same way you can also find similar traits in some of the biblical personalities. I hope this all helps. :)

narnianfoxx
01-13-2006, 05:06 PM
Yes, here is what CS Lewis himself said when someone wrote to him asking what biblical characters Nikabrik and Reepicheep represent:
Originally Posted by CS Lewis
You are mistaken when you think that everything in the books "represents" something in this world. Things do that in The Pilgrim's Progress but I'm not writing in that way. I did not say to myself "Let us represent Jesus as He really is in our world by a Lion in Narnia": I said "Let us suppose that there were a land like Narnia and that the Son of God, as He became a Man in our world, became a Lion there, and then imagine what would happen." If you think about it, you will see that it is quite a different thing. So the answer to your first two questions is that Reepicheep and Nick-i-brick don't, in that sense, represent anyone. But of course anyone in our world who devotes his whole life to seeking Heaven will be like Reepicheep, and anyone who wants some worldy thing so badly that he is ready to use wicked means to get it will be likely to behave like Nick-i-brick.



See, there is no one-to-one correspondence with people in the Bible, except for Aslan/Jesus.

when you say that, yes of course the whole book wasnt written as an allegory-lewis wasnt writing the Bible-but still, there is significance in the characters and places, so yes, when people try to overanalyze the situation of every character, it doesnt mean that there is a significance behind the character, but yes, some of them are still plain to see, excluding Aslan

Morrigaine
01-17-2006, 12:22 PM
Hi,

I'm new here. I live In Belgium and I don't believe in God, but I have a religion that the Celts handled in the old days and I want to post this because I don't agree that Narnia is Christian:
This is not because I hate Lewis or something, it's just my own opinion.

The 10 reasons, why I don't think that Narnia is Christian:

1) Lewis ate and drank of the wrong table:
Firstly: C. S. Lewis was a dedicated Christian and I have nothing against him. But he ate and drank of the Greek and Roman literature, that pagan gods preaches. And this literature has come into the whole world of creatures and enchantment in his books.

That is not the inspiration of Gods Mind! The Bible says that the God of Israel, the only real God, has nothing to do with all the pagan gods that Rome and Greece (and world-wide) worshipped.

Read what the Bible says about this:

Does exist there an agreement between the temple of God and the gods of the pagans?
Therefore the Lord says:
"Leave them, separate you from them and don't touch anything that is unclean!" "Then I will accept you; I will be your father and you will be my suns and daughters. Said the Lord that has everything in its power."
(2 Turned. 6:16-18)

"...the pagan must bring their offerings at demons and not at God, and I don't want that you to become allies of those demons.
You cannot drink from the cup of the Lord and from the cup of demons; you cannot participate at the meal of the
Lord and at the meal of the demons." (1 Turned. 10:21)

The Bible says clear that pagan gods in fact are demons. Every dedicated Christian, that wants to inspire from a demonic world, will produce an unpurified sound. Even the intention is yet so good!

"Who goes around with it becomes infected with it."


2) Narnia is a world full of pagan gods:
You must understand that the world of Narnia is a world that is inhabited with exclusively mythological beings as gnomes, giants, unicorns, etc. That are not just fabrications. In the occult world these are mindly powers.

Just visit a paranormal meeting. Everywhere arround you, you see images of gnomes, unicorns, etc. Many men, that have been in the occult world, have seen demons that look like gnomes or giants.

They are spiritual beings that existence, but they don't belong to our materialistic world.

For someone who has absolutely no knowledge of the spiritual world, it sounds possibly exaggerated. But someone who has that knowledge, will know what I want to say.

A leading figure in the books is Tumnus, a little creature that proposes the Greek god PAN (half goat, half man, with a flute). Tumnus is a good friend of the children in the film. He welcomes them in Narnia, and is their guide and helper. What you don't get to hear is that PAN in the Greek cult is a god for fertility and plesure! In other words: he is the demon that men seduces to sexual excesses and excessive enjoyment.

There is another Pagan God in Narnia: 'Bacchus', the god of desire, from the old Rome. In Narnia, he is a cheerful celebrating pig, that celebrates with the children in the night in the middle of the woods.

3) Narnia trembles of the enchantment:
All books of Narnia trembles from the enchantment and occult influence. In the books, the children are helped more times by magicians. In a particular book from the series,there is even a sooth-sayer that looks in an old well that saves them .

If a Christian author crams his books full with magic, what kind of spiritual fruits can it have then?

Enchantment is quite powerful. Ghosts exist, dear people! It is so much more than something where you can play with. The Bible do not warns us for plesure!

Read this verse out the bible:

"Permit also no sooth-sayers, fortune tellers, magicians and exorcists, neither persons that call up the minds of dead! The Lord, your God, has occupy a deep horror of all people who practice these occupations!"
(Deuteronomium 18:10-14)

The books of Narnia are named the most enchanted in all times. What do you mean, 'in a christian way'?

4) Narnia do not speak about Jesus Christ:
The reason that many believe that the enchanted books of Narnia are Christian and therefore are "good", is because of the lion Aslan is a symbol of Jesus Christ. He gives his life to break the spell, that the white witch has brought over the land. But nowhere in all of the books is mentioned the name of Jesus Christ.
A not-Christian must guess who in heavenly name is Aslan? Or what?

For they who don't know the gospel: This story is the most beautiful tale in a magic land!

5) Narnia does not bring the real gospel:
It is characteristic about our time to give a 'swoeng' at the gospel so it becomes a positive story, from which you can pull a valueblle lesson.
The real gospel is very sharp and says: "have nothing to do with the world of the occult!"

"They who plays with the occult, will be judged by God."
This says the Bible quite clear, on many places:

“They who commit magic, adore statues of pagan gods, who serves them,Yes, all the ones who lie: their part will be: the sea of fire and
sulfurs, the second dead.” (Revelation 21:8)

That is hard and sharp. But it makes that men who love God are pure. The consequence of this is that God can have uninffected children who can let His light cleary shine. God doesn't have time for a compromise.

God wants authenticity, no rubbish..

6) Narnia good - Passion wrong! :
What is really clear here: is that there is such excited enthousiasm from most Christians about this film, while you give so much criticism on 'The Passion Of The Christ'. 'The Passion' speaks just the truth about the gospel! The passion is at least a film where people discover the true offering of Jesus.

Is it not extremely strange that just the people who had criticisms on 'The Passion' are full of praise of a film, in which the name of Jesus is not named and the Greek and Roman gods are seen as friends and enchantments are be considered as good?

Think about it...

7) Narnia is part of the mind of time:
We live in a time where is a lot of influence of the occult. The Bible says that we are going in the wrong direction of a stream with supernatural elements that will be false.
In the Bible, Jezus Christ and the apostles have warned us for a time where are 'healings from false wounds', 'false prophets' and 'false christs' would be. They will appear as good and helpfully, but they are from a wrong source. They mislead people.

8) Narnia mixes Jesus with pagan gods:
The characteristic of this time is that the gospel is mixed with other religions. In Narnia it happens quite clear: the Greek and Roman godsworld is the world of Aslan, who represents Jesus.

A Christian message is mixed with the world of pagan gods and magic.


9) Narnia is being welcomed by the occult world:
Jezus said that the characteristic of the real gospel: It will be hated through the world. He said against his pupils:

"As you belonge to the world, you would love the world as something of herself. But the world hate you, because I have selected you from the world and you belong no longer to her ." (Johannes 15:19)

On internet you see that not-Christians and even a lot of occult websites are speaking full of praise about Narnia.

It is a hype by million of people who has nothing to do with Jesus Christ.
How can you be populary in those godless world and at the same time serve the world of Jesus?

10) Narnia, but not the Holly Spirit:
Typicall for many Christians, is that they welcome Narnia, but in the mean while they are quite averse at it if it's about the Holy Spirit. The Bible mentions supernatural works of the Holy Spirit, as necessary gifts that God gives at Christians. Through these, Christians can give stand in these occult times, godless time, they can appear Gods lights strongly .
(1 see Turned. 12-14,Efeze 4, Romans 12,...)

In many Christian circles they speak negative about particular gifts of the Holy Spirit (prophecy, cure, wounds, distinction of minds, tongue language, ...)

A lot of Christian groups have killed people (even Christians) that used these gifts of the Holy Spirit.

Yet the ones who are against the gifts of the Holy Spirit, are often well quite open for the occult books of Narnia. Quite strange.

I have translated this for you guys and set some of my own opinions trough it... from this site
http://www.real-life.nl/lifeletter/2005/onderwijs/narnia.html. I hope I didn't make a lot of faults in my translation.

inkspot
01-17-2006, 01:48 PM
Welcome, Morrigaine!

You might want to check out this link which talks about whether Narnia was a Christian story.
http://www.narniafans.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2208&highlight=christian+allegory

I take you are contending that Lewis himself was even fooled into believing that the Chronicles were Christian stories, and you know better than he what they are?

Parthian King
01-17-2006, 01:59 PM
Thanks for joining, Morrigaine. I love your avatar, being of Welsh descent myself. Your English is just fine! I find it somewhat curious that while you appear to subscribe to a pagan, atheistic worldview, you appear fairly well-versed in some aspects of Christian thought and (even more curiously) have an interest in determining the (non)Christianity of an author and his works who has been known as fervently Christian even by his detractors. I am not put off by this, I just find it curious.

I won't go into a point by point response, but let me answer you generally. Your conclusions (which ironically resemble those of some rather reactionary fundamentalist elements within the Christian community) are built on faulty premises. Within the history and life of the people of God (whether Jews under the Old Covenant or Christians under the New) the idea of a faith that is hermetically sealed from all outside influence is simply non-existent. The Jews accepted many aspects of Greek culture so long as they did not violate the core of Jewish identity. After the process that is known as Hellenization, the Jews came out actually stronger and more self-assured of their identity. Some, in fact, believe Judaism has lasted as it has because it has been flexible enough to grasp those aspects of other cultures with which it comes in contact, discern what is acceptable and beneficial from what will undo them, adopt the former and reject the latter, and move on. (I happen to think it also has to do with God's plan, but then again I am a theist of the Judeo-Christian tradition.)

Christianity is in many ways the crown of this entire process. Christian thought is thoroughly grounded in the Hebrew worldview and therefore rejects the Greco-Roman, pagan worldview. HOWEVER, this does not mean that Greco-Roman thought, language, and imagery are not used in the New Testament as useful vehicles for the Truth. Paul quotes Greek philosophers on three occasions: In Acts 17:28, Aratus Phenomena 5 (the comment about "we are his offspring" there is a reference to Zeus that Paul appropiates to refer to Yahweh); in Acts 26:14, Euripides, Bacchae 794-95 (Christ's comment about "kicking against the goads"); Menander, Thais, Fragment 218 (the comment about "bad company corrupting good morals"). Paul has no problem using Greek philosophy that refers to Zeus to glorify the God of Israel, or with remembering the risen Christ quoting Euripides' Bacchae to him on the road to Damascus, or with using Greek philosophy himself in an effort to get his spiritual children to give up their Greek thinking and accept the resurrection! Think also how Paul uses the image of Christ as triumphator in 2 Corinthians 2:14 and Colossians 2:14-15. The emperors who rode in triumph over foes real or imagined used the ceremony to glorify themselves as the epiphany of Jupiter and sacrifice victims to the gods. Yet Paul says Christ is the one who leads us in triumph! There is also evidence that Christ as tiumphator appears in Mark and Revelation.

What is going on here? Well, it is complicated, but simply put (as some scholars say), this is "plundering the Egyptians." It is found all through Scripture that the concepts, words, images, etc. of pagans are sifted through and taken over for God's purposes. Hey, everything belongs to Him anyway, right? In fact, this is a form of counterclaim, of God's people saying "Hey, that is just too solid, too imaginative to belong to false gods, and the only one of whom something so true could be true is the One True God." So to have a faun in the image of Pan singing Aslan's praises, and Bacchus partying for the joy of the Lord, puts Lewis squarely in the biblical tradition as I see it. Lewis, like those before him, surrenders no spiritual truth, but plunders Egyptians left and right. That is just plain cool (to use the technical academic term). :)

As for naming Christ or the issue of magic, those are fairly pedestrian issues and I'll let some others answer as I am getting long here. But look out, Morrigaine, being a Celt you of all people should know that man named Patricius (also known as St. Patrick) did some serious plundering himself in your territory some time back. Who knows what Christian might find some of your thinking close enough to the truth and imaginative enough to be plundered again in the service of the One True Lord. Perhaps you'll see something in Lewis that might make you the very one to do it. :)

Morrigaine
01-17-2006, 02:04 PM
Grab your bible and look it up. The verses are in my reply. True facts...

You are a hypocrite! You say you believe in God,wel as you see -if you are reading the verses in the bible in my reply (and read all of them) You can't believe in Fairy's,unicorns,giants,cyclops,other gods or creature that don't excist... Because God says
"...the pagan must bring their offerings at demons and not at God, and I don't want that you to become allies of those demons.
You cannot drink from the cup of the Lord and from the cup of demons; you cannot participate at the meal of the
Lord and at the meal of the demons."
1 Kor. 10:21

I just don't get it,that you are yelling: I BELIEVE IN GOD,PRAISE THE LORD and so one...
but in the mean while you are interessted in things that God say you can't: You can't eat at the table of God and the table of the Demon.
So I say: Pick your choice,but please,don't eat of the 2 tables!


And I said,that it was my opinion. But: Read your bible again because you don't know what is really in it...

Morrigaine
01-17-2006, 02:06 PM
yes,I agree with you parthian King. but I don't understand the last,from sint Patrick,I think it's because of my english... :) Can you explain it a little...

Parthian King
01-17-2006, 02:11 PM
I have to confess that I look rather dimly upon the practice of calling someone else a hypocrite in a forum discussion. You don't know Inkspot, and seeing that she is a committed Christian and you, Morrigaine, by your own confession one who does not believe in God, I think she is in a better place to judge what is or is not legitimately Christian than you. If I were to lecture you on the tenets of your Celtic faith and the writings of its foremost proponents, surely you would resist me as one who speaks as a foreigner. Until you "repent and are baptized," you speak as an outsider to Christian truth.

And incidentally, though you say you agree with me, you cannot and hold to the cogency of your first post.

Patrick evangelized the Celts of Ireland about 1500 years ago.

Einherjar
01-17-2006, 02:46 PM
Oh boy... I register to a forum hoping to find some adult and intelligent Narnia fans.... Bad luck I gues...

This is like the first topic I read, and let's face it, most of you here are obviously wannabe's that just run along without using their brain (if they have one of course). I see "dedicated" Christians who don't even know some important parts of the bible are just christian dogs like there are so many (like the whole world was hundreds of years ago). I mean, look at both the Concilli De Nicea of the 13th of october 1307 where lies became truth and the bible became a fact.
But when I start about your "god" Jehova, or Jawhé, opinions start to change. Dedicated but still an opinion? That's good, now if your brains should start working you would know Jawhé isn't "just" a "god" but a metafore and that your opinions are useless. Read your precious bible carefully and you'll also understand that.

Now, about the hypocrite part. Morrigaine is completely right about this, Inkspot is hypocrite. She calls herself christian, but denies the facts of other religions that dwell in Narnia, more then there are christian symbols. I mean HELLOOOOO? BRAAAAAAAINS? WHERE ARE YOU?????????,

Besides, real christians should realize the cross comes from the ankh, hell from the nordic god Helle, heaven from Valhalla and Satan from Shemsu-Hor. Also you should know christianity is hypocrite, for in the bible says (like Morigan already said):

Therefore the Lord says:
"Leave them, separate you from them and don't touch anything that is unclean!" "Then I will accept you; I will be your father and you will be my suns and daughters. Said the Lord that has everything in its power."
(2 Turned. 6:16-18)

"...the pagan must bring their offerings at demons and not at God, and I don't want that you to become allies of those demons.
You cannot drink from the cup of the Lord and from the cup of demons; you cannot participate at the meal of the
Lord and at the meal of the demons." (1 Turned. 10:21)

At the other hand, Christianity is about loving the other man, helping him and blablabla*charity*blablabla*friendship* you know the whole story, witch is like 100% the opposite of what's standing here above?

Wait wait, a litle test: Genesis1:26 go read that and start asking yourself questions. ;)

(Don't worry, this is for brain-owners, other people shouldn't try to understand) So I suggest this:EVERYONE carefully reads: the bible, the koran, learns the Celtic mythology and buy some brains. Then we maybe could start this discussion over and see that again, AGAIN, paganism overwins the monotheïstical religions."

Once more, superiority of ancienity has been proven, lies have been forsaken, but still, everyone follows the forsaken ones, for everyone is forsaken. The weakness of the race...

For so far my adventure on this forum filled with low lifes. @ Morigain, I really ask myself what you are doing here...

Parthian King
01-17-2006, 02:53 PM
Einherjar, does using your brains include using spellcheck?

Einherjar
01-17-2006, 02:55 PM
(maybe you should stay on the discussion in stead of trying to make pointless combebacks that don't have anything to do with the subject?)

Parthian King
01-17-2006, 02:57 PM
What discussion? Have you read the tenor of your own post? Some things are just not worth the energy, Einherjar, though I'm sure you'll have an all-knowing conclusion to draw from that, too.

Gibby
01-17-2006, 03:03 PM
Einherjar, does using your brains include using spellcheck?

Lol! PK, I think we better bow down to the superior intellect of Einherjar. We are not worthy to be in the same discussion with him; woe to us!

Your post, Einherjar, was one of the quickest walls being built up against other members that I have ever seen. Your first post certainly was a burst out of the gates, now wasn't it?

Charn_Tim
01-17-2006, 03:06 PM
Oh boy... I register to a forum hoping to find some adult and intelligent Narnia fans.... Bad luck I gues...

This is like the first topic I read, and let's face it, most of you here are obviously wannabe's that just run along without using their brain (if they have one of course). I see "dedicated" Christians who don't even know some important parts of the bible are just christian dogs like there are so many (like the whole world was hundreds of years ago). I mean, look at both the Concilli De Nicea of the 13th of october 1307 where lies became truth and the bible became a fact.
But when I start about your "god" Jehova, or Jawhé, opinions start to change. Dedicated but still an opinion? That's good, now if your brains should start working you would know Jawhé isn't "just" a "god" but a metafore and that your opinions are useless. Read your precious bible carefully and you'll also understand that.

Now, about the hypocrite part. Morrigaine is completely right about this, Inkspot is hypocrite. She calls herself christian, but denies the facts of other religions that dwell in Narnia, more then there are christian symbols. I mean HELLOOOOO? BRAAAAAAAINS? WHERE ARE YOU?????????,

Besides, real christians should realize the cross comes from the ankh, hell from the nordic god Helle, heaven from Valhalla and Satan from Shemsu-Hor. Also you should know christianity is hypocrite, for in the bible says (like Morigan already said):

Therefore the Lord says:
"Leave them, separate you from them and don't touch anything that is unclean!" "Then I will accept you; I will be your father and you will be my suns and daughters. Said the Lord that has everything in its power."
(2 Turned. 6:16-18)

"...the pagan must bring their offerings at demons and not at God, and I don't want that you to become allies of those demons.
You cannot drink from the cup of the Lord and from the cup of demons; you cannot participate at the meal of the
Lord and at the meal of the demons." (1 Turned. 10:21)

At the other hand, Christianity is about loving the other man, helping him and blablabla*charity*blablabla*friendship* you know the whole story, witch is like 100% the opposite of what's standing here above?

Wait wait, a litle test: Genesis1:26 go read that and start asking yourself questions. ;)

(Don't worry, this is for brain-owners, other people shouldn't try to understand) So I suggest this:EVERYONE carefully reads: the bible, the koran, learns the Celtic mythology and buy some brains. Then we maybe could start this discussion over and see that again, AGAIN, paganism overwins the monotheïstical religions."

Once more, superiority of ancienity has been proven, lies have been forsaken, but still, everyone follows the forsaken ones, for everyone is forsaken. The weakness of the race...

For so far my adventure on this forum filled with low lifes. @ Morigain, I really ask myself what you are doing here...
HAHAHAHA...

Nice job of trying to get a reaction out of us, but no one is going to take you seriously with this post...Good luck with your next try.

Morrigaine
01-17-2006, 03:15 PM
Americans always think they know better...

Parthian King
01-17-2006, 03:25 PM
Oh come, come, Morrigaine, you're not really cut from the same bolt of cloth as Einherjar, are you? I didn't think you would be. The funny thing is that most Americans stand a bit in awe of Europeans--I certainly admire your ability to log on here and dialogue with us in a second language and do so well. Most of us can only operate in one! So please don't be put out because we had the nerve to go beyond being insulted and land in pure bemusement at someone whose opening remarks insult us in almost everyway conceivable. Or don't we have the right to be insulted even when someone intends it that way? I love dialogue, but calling someone a hypocrite and worse in the first exchange is not an auspicious beginning! I think you bring some things to the discussion that are very valuable, but resorting to name calling and accusations about national superiority isn't going to get anyone anywhere.

Pax.

Gibby
01-17-2006, 03:30 PM
The funny thing is that most Americans stand a bit in awe of Europeans--I certainly admire your ability to log on here and dialogue with us in a second language and do so well. Most of us can only operate in one!


You're right, PK. I think any nationality across the globe that can speak their own native dialect and learn English is quite an accomplishment. And because English is such a prominent language, it is becoming quite commonplace accross the globe for people to be taught English. English is hard enough learning as a primary language, let alone a secondary one!

inkspot
01-17-2006, 05:36 PM
Oh, Morrigaine, were you calling me a hypocrite? i didn't understand. Not only a hypocrite, but it turns out I am an imbecile, too. The double whammy, as we dumb bunnies say in the USA.

Now, Morrigaine, I am sorry if my last post seemed cross to you. I seriously did not believe you could be saying Lewis was not Christian, or his Chronicles were not Christian, with all the evidence stacked against you. :p

But as that is what you are saying, let me reply more fully: the Bible does indeed tell us not to partake of pagan shenanigans. No more do I. In a fantasy world like Narnia, Lewis made a place where the real pagan gods may be in place, and yet be serving the one true God. What an idea! it could bever be in this world, because all that business is forbidden in this world. But in Narnia, a fantasy world, it could be true. Because it's a work of imagination, made up in somebody's brain.

That's a reason I can read and enjoy mythology, too: because I don't worship those gods, I just read about them and find them fascinating.

Interesting, isn't it? How something that would be sinful to practice in real life can be not a sin when you read about it in a fantasy story. And yet, this allows me to love the Chronicles and not be a hypocrite, or an imbecile. Sweet.

Now, I encourage you to check out what faith in Christ is all about, personally, and then see if it doesn't bring you even more enjoyment to read the Chronicles, knowing how Lewis felt about them in relation to Christ. I would say to start by reading the Gospel of John -- you can find several good versions of the Bible to read online at www.biblegateway.com.

I agree with the others that your English is great, and I thank you for bringing a new perspective to the thread. Be gentle with us!

PK, Gibby, thank you for your support! :)

Christine~Pevensie
01-17-2006, 05:48 PM
Theres a book that I bought called "Roar: A Christian Family Guide to the Chronicles of Narnia" and it tells you the connections between the bible for each chapter of all seven books. I was really excited because reading about the connections made me want to read the Bible a little more than I used to. They gve you bible verses to look up to see the connections and then have you discuss them with the rest of your family.

inkspot
01-17-2006, 05:50 PM
Thanks for that info Christine -- want to share some of what you have discovered?

underthefryingpan
01-17-2006, 06:25 PM
Americans always think they know better...
and thats because they do

jk, couldn't resist ;)

Christine~Pevensie
01-17-2006, 06:27 PM
Well I have some on the book "The Horse and his Boy"

In Chapter 12, After running for hours to warn the King about Prince Rabadash's attack, Aslan shows up by Shasta's side, and leads him into Narnia. When Shasta arrived at Narnia and he was greeted by all sorts of animals. Three dwarves gave him food and after that he slept and slept.

In Romans 8:28 is says "Come to me all of you who are weary and burdened," Jesus said. "and I will give you rest."

Aslan lead Shasta to his land and gave him time to rest after being burdened with the task of warning the King.

Christine~Pevensie
01-17-2006, 06:32 PM
In Chapter 10, Shasta was safely ahead of Avaris, but he runs back to try save Avaris from the lion.
In John 15:13 it says "Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends."

Christine~Pevensie
01-17-2006, 06:40 PM
In The Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe,
Peter hesitates whether he'd be able to lead the troops. Aslan told him that he believes that he can do it, and so Peter, after he heard of Aslan's death, gathers up his courage and leads the troops to a big battle against the Witch in Aslan's name.

In Joshua 1:9 "Be strong and courageous. Do not be terrified, for the Lord your God will be with you wherever you go."

inkspot
01-17-2006, 07:26 PM
That's cool, Christine! Thanks!

Mozart the Meerkitten
04-17-2009, 04:31 PM
I see most people are doing specific places and lines. Ok.

'But between them and the foot of the sky there was something so white on the green grass even with their eagle's eyes they could hardly look at it. They came on and saw that is was a lamb...

As He spoke his snowy white flushed into tawny gold and his size changed and he was Aslan himself, towering above them and scattering light from his mane.'- The Voyage of the Dawn Treader.

In the Bible it says Jesus is the Lion and the Lamb.

'And as He spoke He no longer looked to them like a lion...

Now at last they were beginning Chapter One of the Great Story which no one on earth has ever read: which goes on forever: in which every chapter is better than the one before.' - The Last Battle

I could put all of the Last Battle from the beginning to end and it all is talking about what will happen at the end of THIS world... Adaptation for kids of Revelation I guess you could say.

inkspot
04-17-2009, 05:35 PM
Excellent, Mozart! :)

In TLB, Tirian , looking into the stable through the hole in the door, says, ‘The stable seen from within and the stable seen from without are two different places.' Digory answers, ‘Its inside is bigger than its outside.’ And Lucy says, ‘In our world, too, a stable once had something inside it that was bigger than our whole world.’

Jesus was born in a stable, see?

shortangel
04-17-2009, 07:19 PM
here's one of the books that might help with some of the allergories & symbols of the narnia charchathers in the stories there are many books out there on this subject

C.S. lewis & narnia for dummies

Copperfox
05-01-2009, 09:12 PM
Aslan/Jesus weeping in sympathy for Digory's grief (TMN), even though He foreknows that Digory's mother _will_ be cured, is like His weeping at the tomb of Lazarus, even though He _knew_ He was about to restore Lazarus to life.

Truman
05-02-2009, 12:37 AM
I dunno... Lewis explained in a letter in 1959 (as well as other various letters) about how he never intended any of the books to be allegory (he in fact denied it). He claimed they were more of a "comparision." We've got to be careful not to compare every detail of the books to be Christian. Most of the books were just pure fantasy, according to Jack himself.

Many people "find" their own interpretations of the Narnia series, but no more than you can "find" such interpretations in the Dune Chronicles. From Dune to Children of Dune there are all kinds of references and allusions to other works and beliefs throughout, including supposed "Christian" references. But this, however, doesn't mean they were intended to point toward Christianity itself, though it might seem to do so in many passages in the three main novels. Herbert was a Buddhist.

Jack was a Christian, no doubt about that. But according to many of his letters he has denied over and over that his books are allegory. He does say the series is "Christian" in its nature, but nothing more. They are merely "comparison" to that of Christian moral principles and beliefs. LWW and TLB do indeed seem very much to be allegories, and even though I know Lewis didn't mean it to be so, I still hold that belief. If others still believe that the most miniscule references in the Narnia series are allegory, I beg to differ, and would challenge those to show what evidence they have to prove it to be so... with an exception: that it be a declaration from Lewis himself. You can find anything you want to find if you look hard enough and see it as you wish, but I contend that Lewis thought differently about such things.

PrinceOfTheWest
05-02-2009, 07:42 AM
There's actually a word for what the stories are: anagogical. An allegory is a very precise form of fiction where each character explicitly and consciously equates to some person or principle. Bunyan's Pilgrim's Progress and Lewis' Pilgrim's Regress would be examples of this. An anagogical work is one where there's no such simple character-to-character connection, but the characters point beyond the story to greater principles or parties. In this sense every story is somewhat anagogical, but some are more clearly so.

inkspot
05-04-2009, 06:21 PM
Lewis explained in a letter in 1959 (as well as other various letters) about how he never intended any of the books to be allegory (he in fact denied it). He claimed they were more of a "comparision." We've got to be careful not to compare every detail of the books to be Christian. Most of the books were just pure fantasy, according to Jack himself.
But Lewis himself said the stories definitely did have clear spiritual references, as he wrote to a fan:
"The whole series works out like this:
• The Magician's Nephew tells the Creation and how evil entered Narnia,
• The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe - the Crucifixion and Resurrection,
• The Horse and His Boy - the calling and conversion of the heathen,
• Prince Caspian - restoration of the true religion after a corruption,
• The Voyage of the Dawn Treader - the spiritual life (especially in Reepicheep),
• The Silver Chair - the continuing war against the powers of darkness,
• The Last Battle - the coming of Antichrist (the ape). The end of the world
and the last judgement."


So, yah, since the author himself assigned each book a spiritual/Christian theme, I don't think we can go wrong in finding biblical comparisons in each of the books.

Truman
05-04-2009, 07:22 PM
But Lewis himself said the stories definitely did have clear spiritual references, as he wrote to a fan:
But Lewis himself said the stories definitely did have clear spiritual references, as he wrote to a fan:
"The whole series works out like this:
• The Magician's Nephew tells the Creation and how evil entered Narnia,
• The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe - the Crucifixion and Resurrection,
• The Horse and His Boy - the calling and conversion of the heathen,
• Prince Caspian - restoration of the true religion after a corruption,
• The Voyage of the Dawn Treader - the spiritual life (especially in Reepicheep),
• The Silver Chair - the continuing war against the powers of darkness,
• The Last Battle - the coming of Antichrist (the ape). The end of the world
and the last judgement."

So, yah, since the author himself assigned each book a spiritual/Christian theme, I don't think we can go wrong in finding biblical comparisons in each of the books.
That "letter" is currently in question, as it was just "discovered" about a decade ago by UK officials. I personally think it's a forgery, because this letter would be contradicting his letter written to Sophia Storr in December 1959, which I quote to say,
"But it [the Narnia series] is not, as some people think, an allegory."
Or the letter written to Patricia Kiln in June 1960 where he's quoted to say, "All your points are in a sense right. But I'm not exactly 'representing' the real (Christian) story in symbols."
This isn't the first time Walt Hooper (the man who "found" the letter) has been accused of creating forgeries attributed to Lewis. Look into The Dark Tower and various essays. He constantly exaggerated his connection with Lewis, though the only time he ever met him was briefly in 1963. There is much controversy surrounding Hooper already, and I'd look more into such a "letter" that came out of his estate, because it simply doesn't add up when you contrast it to the other letters Lewis really did write to people.

I stand by my guns. There are various other criticisms of the letter which basically all say Lewis would never write in such simple language to a child about "...the Crucifixion and Resurrection, the calling and conversion of a heathen..." Other parts of the letter are also criticized, saying Lewis would've never given away the ending of LWW to Ann before she read it. Another criticism expounded on the name of the child being written to,
"The name Ann Jenkins seems to echo some of the previous Lewis forgeries. In 'Forms of Things Unknown' the protagonist's name is John Jenkin. In Ed Brown's manuscript version of 'The Man born Blind' the wife's name is changed from Mary to Anne. And in the bogus opening of The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe on the back of page 1 of the Dark Tower manuscript, the name Susan has been changed to Ann: 'This book is about four children whose names were Ann, Martin, Rose and Peter.'"

inkspot
05-04-2009, 08:14 PM
I don't know about Hooper. The quote is from my CS Lewis Letters to Children book which I've had since the 1980's, so I don't know when it was first printed, but more than a decade ago.

PoTW has already explained why Lewis said the books aren't an allegory: because they're not. In order to be an allegory, each character would have to represent someone or something actual, like there would be a one-to-one correlation between Peter Pevensie and the Apostle Peter, and clearly there is not.

But the biblical symbolism Lewis readily acknowledged. He said "Suppose the Son of God came to Narnia as a Lion just as Jesus came to earth as a Man." So, the biblical themes are present, and acknowledged by Lewis. What he didn't want was for people to think CON an allegory.

Truman
05-05-2009, 12:38 AM
But the biblical symbolism Lewis readily acknowledged. He said "Suppose the Son of God came to Narnia as a Lion just as Jesus came to earth as a Man." So, the biblical themes are present, and acknowledged by Lewis. What he didn't want was for people to think CON an allegory.
I know, and I agree. But some people, especially Copperfox, and a few others, I fear are going a bit too far. Comparing Jesus' weeping Lazarus' death with Aslan mourning Digory's dying mother? Isn't that a big allegory comparison? Same goes around for other people in the forum as well as earlier comments on this topic given way back in '06.

True, there are obvious Biblical truths and moral principles present in the series, but there are some here who still take it to the next level, actually saying the stories are equal in some way, as well as mirroring to real Bible events, which isn't so. That's all I'm against. And that supposed quote by "Lewis" clearly contradicts his other letters he wrote. If the series isn't allegory, which he says time and again, why would he turn around and say LWW is allegorical to the New Testament's re-telling of Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection? It doesn't make sense.

EveningStar
05-05-2009, 10:41 AM
I always like to say "the truth is in the middle".

You say some people like Copperfox go way too far in comparing Aslan weeping over Digory's mother to Jesus at Lazarus' tomb. In some ways, no doubt. However it is as risky to say there ARE NOT ANY small comparisons in the book as to say there are DOZENS of them.

The two reasons why we'll never know for sure is (1) the author died without leaving a detailed set of footnotes, and (2) even Lewis himself probably added significance in his head or forgot things over the course of his lifetime. It's like the Sci-Fi author who has heard so many times "That scene with the lady of light is beautifully symbolic of the resurrection" that he eventually starts saying, "Yeah, it is, kinda, isn't it?" And deep inside they wish they had meant it because once it was pointed out they like it.

inkspot
05-05-2009, 01:59 PM
I know, and I agree. But some people, especially Copperfox, and a few others, I fear are going a bit too far. Comparing Jesus' weeping Lazarus' death with Aslan mourning Digory's dying mother? Isn't that a big allegory comparison? Same goes around for other people in the forum as well as earlier comments on this topic given way back in '06.

True, there are obvious Biblical truths and moral principles present in the series, but there are some here who still take it to the next level, actually saying the stories are equal in some way, as well as mirroring to real Bible events, which isn't so. That's all I'm against. And that supposed quote by "Lewis" clearly contradicts his other letters he wrote. If the series isn't allegory, which he says time and again, why would he turn around and say LWW is allegorical to the New Testament's re-telling of Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection? It doesn't make sense.
No one here is saying the books are allegorical, that I know of -- not even CF. In order to be an allegory, as I said, each character would have to correspond one-to-one to something else in our world, like the old Pilgrim character in Pilgrim's Progress was allegorical to a Christian pilgrim in this world. Lewis didn't want people trying to make those connections, is why he says the book is not an allegory, and we all believe him.

But if we see bibical symbolism in the books, as Lewis acknowledged that there was such symbolism, ("Suppose the Son of God came to Narnia as a Lion...) then that isn't the same thing as saying the book is an allegory. It's just saying that it relates to the Bible. And I agree with ES, whether or not Lewis critically reflected on Aslan's weeping with Digory in comparison with Christ's weeping over Lazarus, it certainly does evoke the same set of circumstances.

Liz
05-09-2009, 05:40 AM
This is what's clear to me:

The creation of Narnia represents the creation of this world.
Alsan represents Christ, which to me is very clear in LWW with Aslan's sacrifice and resurrection.
Eustace becoming a dragon and then helped by Aslan represents the Christian conversion.
The last battle is the end of the world.

There are lots of other moral and ethical points being made, which relate to Christianity and being a Christian. But I'm not concerned with making everything fit into certain passages of the Bible.
I want to read the books as good litterature, and to me it would be spoiled a bit, if I should try to figure out every little detail.
I'm certain that the books are more about Christian ideas than Christian allegories.

It's also great that non-christians can read them and enjoy them as well.
The books are certainly good and enjoyable litterature, which at the same time make good moral and ethical points.