What is patriotism?

[Sopespian]

Originally Posted by dawnpatrol

Patriotism as it's being defined today by many in the U.S. media works this way: If you support the current administration's policies and hope for their success that is patriotic because conversely we are being told that if you oppose the current administration's policies on their substance and therefore hope for them to fail then you are 'unpatriotic' ... among other things.

Interesting.

I knew this was one step away from getting into politics.

[lieke]

Whatever you may call it, that doesn't matter so much to me. What matters is: patriotism is good, as long as it's guided. If i would go to America for a holiday and i would take a friend, and my friend would get crazy and start raping American girls, it would be baaaad patriotism to say that my friend can do so, because he's Dutch too. I mean, come on! Patriotism (or emphasis on it, i don't care) can NOT be the only thing you're judging something by. As long as you can see it in the bigger picture, it can be a very good thing.

I don't think patriotism has that much to do with the 'current government' (whichever government it may be), after all, governments change every four years or so, and in the US's system, it usually changes quite drastically (since you have two main parties). So it would be impossible for someone to always love the way the government is in one's country.

It has something to do with caring for your country, but still seeing its flaws. I mean, i really care for my country, but i can point to at least ten things i think are horrible. I don't support some stuff, i dislike some other things, something i do like. The care i have for my country is the care for the country itself, which is my home, and the care for the people. Not my care for the policies. After all, many people in other countries have the same policies as we, or just the opposite. But there is no country in this world that is home to me as the Netherlands is. It has nothing to do with how 'good' our country is compared to others. It's more like loving a family, you are born into it, and you love it because of that.

(Having said that, i do love my family more than my country It is a Dutch thing to be fairly critical to their own country, but since this is an international forum, i need to defend it anyway )

[Driad54]

No, Sopespian, it has everything to do with our understanding of Patriotism. Can Patriotism be manipulated around to promote agendas? Can Patriotism be manipulated around to encourage oppression?

[lieke]

Patriotism cannot be manipulated, as long as it is controlled by our other morals. In fact, C.S. Lewis calls it 'the Law of Human Nature' that controlls our actions, it is, so to speak, the moral law that we ought to obey. Patriotism is part of that, but not the only part. If your love for your country is controlled by your ethics, you know how to distinct good things from bad things within your country.

Having said that: of course in patriotism, you always want the best for your country. In my country there is a politician that wanted to be elected for the European parliament, so that he could 'bring it down from the inside' (quote). I would never vote for him, since that isn't a very constructive attitude.

I agree very strongly that it is NOT unpatriottic to say where you think there are faults, and things should change, even if that is against the government. What i do think is unpatriottic, if the only thing one can do is say 'away with the government' without being able to bring in something constructive to the debate. (Has nothing to do with US politics, i don't care very much for them, and i don't want to share opinions about your current administration, since it's not allowed.)

[EveningStar]

We won't even consider the effects of manipulation here because EVERYTHING has been manipulated by someone, somewhere. Even sexuality has been harnessed to sell Body Wash and love of family harnessed to sell Electronic Monitoring systems.

So returning to the actual stated topic of the thread ... what IS patriotism (not what it's portrayed by the media to be) ... I suggest it is the shared vision, priorities, and heritage of the people forming a nation.

[Copperfox]

That....and the willingness actually to sacrifice something for the sake of one's country.

The ancient Athenians looked at life in their city-state as a tension between the POLIS, i.e. the community toward which patriotic sentiment was felt, and IDIA, the small-picture concerns of the individual. Anyone can see that the words "politics" and "metropolis" both derive from the first of these terms. As for deriving something from the second term: just as a person full of zeal is a zealot, so any Athenian who focussed always on his IDIA at the expense of his nation's needs....was an IDIOT. That's where we get that word.

[lieke]

It's like caring 'for the greater good' and not just caring for your own personal desires and wishes. I agree that that's important. But for me personally, 'caring for the greater good' doesn't mean 'caring for the country'.

A country is the place where things can be arranged that take care of the greater good. Just like a family can take care of the greater good and just like a whole continent can take care of it, or a church, or a school, or whatever.

I agree that decisions you make should be based on the greater good. That's why i don't go and rob a store just because 'i'm hungry'. But i disagree that decisions you make should be for your countries good. If my country has some policies that help the world's 'greater good', then okay. But if a policy would be 'kill all non-Dutch' or even 'kill everyone in this country shorther than 1.60 meters' i'd rather focus on the real greater good.

[EveningStar]

Governments in this world are merely imitations of the Heavenly Kingdom. They should be respected only to the degree that they aspire to reflect their role model.

According to Thomas Jefferson, it is to secure human rights that governments were instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. This tells us three things.

FIRST that not all powers a government can wield are necessarily just. There are also unjust powers and those should be hunted down and destroyed.

SECOND that the purpose of the government was to free people, not to enslave or even TAME people.

THIRD that government is subject to consent, and it is through elections, the justice system, and oversight bodies that this consent is made informed consent with effective powers to change or abolish that which is wrong.

[MrBob]

A love of one's family is equivalent to the feeling of patriotism. Whiloe you may not exactly be equally happy with each member of your family, and not approving of everything yor family has done in the past, you are equally proud to be a part of the family and will do everything to make your family proud.

So it is with your country. Patriotism is the acceptance of the good and bad of your country and the need to improve her with your actions.

"Can Patriotism be manipulated around to promote agendas? Can Patriotism be manipulated around to encourage oppression?"

Yes, Driad, I believe it can and necessaril is. Each side wants to convince a group of citizens each election to vote for them. They feel they can make the country better with their own ideas and use that love and pride of country to attempt to get enough others on their side.

Copper, ccording to the online etymology dictionary, idiot comes from the Greek word idiotes which means "layman, person lacking professional skill".

MrBob

[TimmyofOz]

Originally Posted by dawnpatrol

Patriotism as it's being defined today by many in the U.S. media works this way: If you support the current administration's policies and hope for their success that is patriotic because conversely we are being told that if you oppose the current administration's policies on their substance and therefore hope for them to fail then you are 'unpatriotic' ... among other things.

Interesting.

Dawnpatrol isn't that far off unfortunally. Patriotism should be love of country, flag and those who fight for them. I don't see any problem with a Christian being a patriot. Love of country should mean love of your fellow man.

Though I don't support nationalized health care or President Obama's foreign policies, I love my country and want to see our military succeed on the field. Thus I am a patriot.

Remember a patriot who lived in Germany in the 30s and 40's would not have supported Hitler. Being a patriot is a good action and what Hitler did was evil. So part of being a patriot is opposing evil doers. You also need to know that war and a military are not evil. If they were God wouldn't sent His angels to do battle with the forces of evil. God would need to make a peace treaty with Satan at the end of times if war was evil. I know some of you might think that is overly simplified, but seeing the difference between good and evil shouldn't be so hard. It is sin and living by the flesh that makes it hard to stand for good.