What is patriotism?

[lieke]

Originally Posted by EveningStar

Another idea, "Annuit coepsis" ("God is pleased by our undertaking"), appears on the back of every $1 bill. Victory in the revolutionary war, the success of the Civil War in preserving the union, and victory in two world wars gave people the sure impression that God was showing his approval of the American experiement of republican democracy. The comparisons to Israel and God's chosen people are obvious. "You were no people but now you are my people". They were led there to form a consecrated nation. God promised them prosperity but they must keep the covenant. Look at the Bible verse on the liberty bell. "Proclaim freedom to the land and to all the inhabitants thereof."

I really don't get what you're talking about? Are you talking about how you think America is the new Holy Land, or about how the people who came there first thought that? I mean, on our 2 euro coins it says 'God be with us' (in Dutch, of course), but that doesn't really mean anything to most people. Lots of countries succeeded in wars, (Canada, France, and England even in the World Wars (and more)), freedom doesn't only exist in the US. And i don't think any country at all will ever take Israel's place.

I don't think i'm getting it.

I agree with you completely, PotW!!

[Ephinie]

I'm not 100% sure, lieke, but I think that what EveningStar is getting at is the idea that the United States as a nation was ordained by God to thrive. Of course we do not think that we are a second Israel, but there is a prevelent thought pattern that dates back to our founding that our form of government, our nation itself has been blessed by God.

It's why we have, "In God We Trust," on our money - as well as the other examples that ES showed.

Back during our westward expansion, there was another term that supports the idea of Americans having this viewpoint - Manifest Destiny. Back then, when we didn't stretch from sea to shining sea yet, there was a strong movement of people in our country that held the absolute conviction that not only WOULD we expand from shore to shore, but that it was our Divine Destiny to do so. Thus, the term, "Manifest Destiny," was used as a catch word to express the belief that it was literally God's will for us to stretch from the east coast all the way to the west.

So basically, yeah, Americans have had the idea that our form of government is ordained by God. Some would go as far as to say it is favored by God. It is kind of a break with the traditional belief that God ordains the King. Yet at the same time, it coincides nicely with the age old belief that government is ordained by God.

[EveningStar]

I'm talking about self-image. To be accurate I only have to put a finger on what Americans believed, not prove or disprove it.

That being said, the United States does appear to have some sort of divine purpose. Had it not existed, BOTH SIDES of two disastrous world wars would have been impoverished almost beyond recovery. I imagine that even now the economic repurcussions of the world wars would have still gripped the world in poverty had it not been for the existance of America. If only to be a buffer zone for the world, America was a blessing to the world. But it went beyond that. Without descending to the drum-beat of 1950s civics textbooks, let me just say that I love my new homeland and God bless it.

[lieke]

Well, we never know what could have happened, right .

I get what you mean. Don't think i agree though. But i get now that at least that's not a topic to discuss in here, so i'll refrain

Back on patriotism: PotW mentioned that Christ was the only one completely worthy of all of our loyalty, and that 'earthly governments and persons' can still deserve our loyalty, but that should all be subordinated to our loyalty to Him. What do you think?

[EveningStar]

Hands down, if God says turn right and the President says turn left, I'm turning right.

[lieke]

Originally Posted by EveningStar

Hands down, if God says turn right and the President says turn left, I'm turning right.

Yeah me too! (unless on the left there are some reaaaallly good chocolate bars, but... no, i'd be going right anyway. I mean, heaven is worth more than chocolate bars... right? ).

I've heard people mentioning (not on the forum or anything) that one needs to obey the government at all times. While i do agree that one should obey the government, i strongly disagree with accepting everything they do if it goes against my beliefs. But then: i believe it's patriotic to do so, since after all God's rules are the best for my (and your) country.

[EveningStar]

Thing is, if there is even a shred of democracy in your country, the government should OBEY YOU, too!

[inkspot]

I love my country a lot, and have a little plaque over my fireplace that says God Bless America ... and I do want God to bless America ... but I also wonder, if our successes cause failures elsewhere, is it right to pray for America-specific blessing?

Originally Posted by Mark Twain

The spirit of Christianity proclaims the brotherhood of the race and the meaning of that strong word has not been left to guesswork, but made tremendously definite -- the Christian must forgive his brother man all crimes he can imagine and commit, and all insults he can conceive and utter- forgive these injuries...

... Patriotism has its laws. And it also is a perfectly definite one, there are not vaguenesses about it. It commands that the brother over the border shall be sharply watched and brought to book every time he does us a hurt or offends us with an insult. Word it as softly as you please, the spirit of patriotism is the spirit of the dog and wolf. The moment there is a misunderstanding about a boundary line or a hamper of fish or some other squalid matter, see patriotism rise, and hear him split the universe with is war-whoop. The spirit of patriotism being in its nature jealous and selfish, is just in man's line, it comes natural to him -- he can live up to all its requirements to the letter; but the spirit of Christianity is not in its entirety possible to him...

Thoughts?

[EveningStar]

Of course it's right to pray for an America-specific blessing. Unless it's wrong to pray for Aunt Ida's problem with Iverson's disease without praying for everybody afflected with Iverson's disease, or better yet anyone that might be sick with anything, anywhere.

[lieke]

Originally Posted by EveningStar

Thing is, if there is even a shred of democracy in your country, the government should OBEY YOU, too!

Of course. But you and i both live in countries where the government is chosen by democratic voting, but the decisions the government makes are not directly democratic. The people are not consulted every time the government makes a decisions (and that would be almost impossible), so there is part of me that obeys the government, while there is a large part of the government obeying me.

Originally Posted by inkspot

I love my country a lot, and have a little plaque over my fireplace that says God Bless America ... and I do want God to bless America ... but I also wonder, if our successes cause failures elsewhere, is it right to pray for America-specific blessing?

Thoughts?

I agree with ES, of course it is right to pray for good things for your country. But with the sidenote that that shouldn't mean bad things for other countries. I mean, you pray for aunt Ida and her getting better, but you don't pray that the disease will go to her neighbour you don't care about anyway. In the same way, i don't think it's really right to pray that your national soccer team will win the world championships, since your country doesn't have 'more right' to win it than other countries. However, it is okay to pray that no one will get hurt in the game.

So i'd say okay, as long as it stays within certain boundaries. And btw, as christians, i don't think that anyone would even think about praying for something that means something bad for others, after all, you don't wish bad on anyone.