"You come of the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve" - Discussion

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OET_Narnia

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I looked through the old discussions for Prince Caspian and didn't see any discussions about the ancestry of the Telmarines and Aslan's discussion with Caspian after he says, "I was wishing that I came of a more honorable lineage."

"You come of the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve," said Aslan. "And that is both honor enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth. Be content."

I understand the imagery of, "erect the head of the poorest beggar", but I'm not sure the meaning of, "shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor". It seems to me that being a son Adam brings with in honor to "erect the head", but who is experiences that shame? Is it not talking specifically to Caspian but being a son of Adam even the poorest and richest should be content and show honor and respect of their heritage?

Any thoughts on the meaning of this quote?
 
Both should show equal honor and respect, but the pauper and beggar is already on the lowest rung and needs to accept his heritage. The most powerful emperor needs to accept humility and should accept he is on par with those he wants to rule. Bowing his head to them could show shame of accepting he is superior. Also, the greatest (meaning most powerful) emperors have tended to be despotic.

MrBob
 
The gospel of Christ ISN'T the gospel of Christ if ALL it does is to tell us: "Love yourself, you're wonderful!" If we were as wonderful as we want to believe we are, there would not have been any need for Jesus to endure a painful death in payment for our sin-guilt. He did not accept this death merely to "teach" us something; humanity had already BEEN taught plenty, and still did evil. There was a debt to be paid off, as the story-arc of Edmund Pevensie makes evident.

Each and every one of us has, at some time, done wrong ON PURPOSE, not just "by mistake." All of us have at some time consciously chosen to prefer our desires and our pride above the needs and rights of other people. Although the atoning action of Jesus brings forgiveness, it still is proper for us to be ashamed of our selfish deeds. THAT is the meaning of the "bow the shoulders" part, and reading Mister Lewis' non-fiction works will confirm this beyond any possible dispute.

No one on Dancing Lawn is required to believe the Bible, but the Bible makes the existence of the sin problem exhaustively clear.
 
Hello and welcome to the forum :)

Yes, I think this saying is meaning that being human is something highly dignified (because we are made in the image of God), such that even the lowest-status human beings (from a social point of view) have this dignity; but also because of the problem of our sinful nature, which leads us to do wrong, all human beings have done things they are (and/or should be) deeply ashamed of, and also nations and civilisations and the entire human race are involved in collective acts of wrong-doing, which means that even the highest-status people (in social terms), like the greatest emperor, share in this shame. This seems to be Lewis's meaning.

In the context of the story of Prince Caspian, it is also a reminder to humans to know their place. In the Narnian world, the kings of Narnia are to be humans, as the text repeatedly says. However, the text also makes clear that those same humans often abuse their position - the Telmarines had exploited and then suppressed and persecuted the creatures of Narnia. This does not invalidate humans' status and calling to be kings, but it does mean that just because they hold a privileged status, that doesn't mean they are excused for the wrongs they do. This can be applied in our world to any person who holds a leadership position. They should not think that because they hold such a position they are better than others, and nor should they use their position to exploit or mistreat others over whom they have authority.

We might also take it to remind us that as humans we have a responsibility to look after the natural world that God has set us over. (That was not so obviously a problem in Lewis's time as it is today, so it would probably be wrong to read this as being Lewis's main emphasis, but I think there was a growing awareness even then that humans were overexploiting the planet, and I think Lewis would probably have agreed with the interpretation if he were here today.) God put humans on the earth to "work it and take care of it", to "rule over it" as God's agents - but that means that we should rule the earth in a caring way, as God cares even for the sparrows and the lilies of the field, not in an exploitative way such that we can just use it any way we like without thinking of or caring about the consequences and the damage it does to the other creatures of God's creation that God has put under our charge.

(In my copy of the Chronicles there is actually a typo at this point - instead of saying "the Lord Adam" it says "the Lord Aslan"!! :oops:)

Peeps
 
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I am amazed at Lewis's take on Christianity and politics (with some racism mixed in): The Last Battle is the most dystopic, with Narnia in ruins and the enemy cutting down trees. Also, the true Narnians make a last stand and fight to the death. Child militants also get involved, though Tirian did his best to send them back to their own time. There is some very clever political maneouvring involved in the fake Aslan (Puzzle the Donkey in a lionskin) and the way in which the enemy uses a bit of truth to make his lies seem more convincing.
 
If by "racism" you mean the bad guys in "Last Battle" having darker skin than the British-descended Narnian humans: that is the attempted "Gotcha" which was used by militant atheist Phillp Pullman in an anti-Christian essay. But there's a crucial fact which Pullman left out of his essay. He either didn't know this, or PRETENDED not to know it.

Before "Horse and His Boy" was written, let alone "Last Battle," the novel "Prince Caspian" had human villains who were WHITE, of European descent. And the evil Calormenes who turned up later were not in ANY way morally worse than the evil Telmarines.

If one is to be a racist, one has to maintain that one racial group is by its very nature morally worse or intellectually weaker than another. But Mister Lewis intentionally showed that ANY racial group will contain bad AND good people. What was wrong with the Calormene civilization was not the color of their skin; it was the fact that they were deceived by a false god.

The fact-- not opinion, fact-- that one BELIEF SYSTEM can be worse than another, is not a function of skin color. Mister Lewis was not the racist that scoffers want him to have been.

It helps to read his non-fiction. He took pains to credit non-white civilizations, notably China, for their contributions to the world.
 
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Hi Dryad, Welcome to the Forum.

I'm not quite sure what your point is (or how it's relevant to this thread). What point do you think Lewis is making about Christianity and politics?

With regard to 'child militants', I don't think Lewis is advocating this as a general form for our world. It should be understood within the context of the whole story set, in which children from our world play a part in the life of Narnia.

Peeps
 
Mister Lewis' open-mindedness is further demonstrated in That Hideous Strength, when the good guys-- including no less than Merlin the Magician, brought back from hibernation-- are discussing what to do about the Antichrist-style evil organization. Merlin urges inviting NON-Christians, including Muslims, to join in the resistance against the impending tyranny.
 
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