Denethor and Theoden

Nikia

Nikia

New member
I was watching the Return of the King special features at my friend's house a few days ago and on one of the featurettes I was struck by what was said. It had to do with Steward Denethor of Gondor and King Theoden of Rohan. Both men were great in their own way and they were very much alike though given their deeds one would not say that. Both ruled great countries and had to decide what to do during the great war of their time. Both lost their eldest/only son and had to choose an heir of a "lesser" man. But each handled the situation differently.

Denethor lost his beloved son Boromir. Who was a great leader and captain, but when faced with temptation was weak of will and paid with his life to be redeemed. Denethor couldn't stand the fact Boromir had died and not his other son, Faramir. He felt Faramir was weaker and not nearly as fit for the job of Steward as Boromir was. Denethor's mind was poisoned by looking into the palantir and so when doom came knocking on his doors he didn't stand and fight, he commited suicide instead. Thus abadoning his city and his people.

Theoden also lost his son and by the whisperings of Wormtongue was told Eomer was unfit and didn't love Rohan enough to be made the heir. Like Denethor his mind was poisoned and he was weakened as doom drew near, but he overcame it. With Gandalf's help his mind was cleared. And then he choose Eomer as his heir, knowing he was as noble and fit to rule as his own son. Also he rode out to meet the doom, against Isengard and Mordor. Like Denethor, Theoden died in the end, but he died defending the good and the just and he knew very well it would most likely be his end. But he went anyway.

I just wanted to know what others thought of these two men. Who was the greater one in the end? Who do you like more?
 
Considering Tolkien's Catholicism, I have to see both men in a kind of religious light. They are both people who were tempted from the true path by evil -- the way Christians would say Satan or "the world" would tempt us away from God's path, and then they were both hit with the terrible loss of their beloved child.

We were discussing this in another thread: the longer you indulge yourself in a sinful action, the less likely you will be to cry out to God for help and seek His forgiveness. Because of the Palantir, Denethor was so steeped in the enemy's evil, when his opportunity for redemption came, he no longer had the power to grasp it. He could have defended his city at the end; possibly even survived and been the one to welcome the true king ... but the evil he had indulged robbed him of the ability to choose that destiny.

So I will say A prefer Theoden. He had been led astray by Wormtongue, but when Gandalf placed his sword in his hand, he accepted it. He realized his need for redemption, and he took it! This is the example I am sure JRRT would want us to follow: when we realize our need for a Savior, to turn to Christ and accept what he offers, and not let the evil of the past overcome the hope in our future.
 
I prefer Theoden by far. Denethor's mind was so susceptible to the shadows that he couldn't find a way to get out of it anymore. He died because of his grief, his pain and his wounds. Some of them were imaginary but others were not. Theoden was also susceptible to shadows, but he took the chance to get rid of them. He led his followers into battle without a care for whether he'd live or die.

This is the choice life presents to us as well. Will you choose the easy way out, like Denethor, or will you stand your ground and fight for everything you hold dear, much like Theoden?
 
I once wrote a paper on Denethor. His primary problem was despair - he gave up hope and could only see the loss of all he saw beautiful and good. He did not see the possibility of another, greater good. Ironically, he could have seen it - the reign of King Elessar - but because he chose despair, he did not see it.

Fortunately, Faramir was rescued.

Theoden, choosing to follow Gandalf's wisdom, chose hope. Even though he died in the process, he gained it for his heirs and his people, and so fulfilled his life.
 
I just wish that PJ had chosen to portray Denethor in a more sympathetic light. In the book, he was a very learned man and of course had much more depth, not this crazed lunatic ( although wonderfully portrayed by John Noble) who was beaten up more than a few times by Gandalf's staff.
 
I thought PJ's portrayal of both Denethor and Faramir was one of the biggest shortcomings of the movie. True, Denethor gave way to despair, but he was a great captain and leader of men (which made his fall all the more tragic). Faramir was the noblest man in the entire story, save for Aragorn. Both portrayals fell far short.
 
IceMaiden said:
I just wish that PJ had chosen to portray Denethor in a more sympathetic light. In the book, he was a very learned man and of course had much more depth, not this crazed lunatic ( although wonderfully portrayed by John Noble) who was beaten up more than a few times by Gandalf's staff.
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Yes, Denethor was very much differnt in the movie than the book. PJ should have done abatter job of portraying him.

but I like Theoden more than Denethor.
 
IceMaiden said:
I just wish that PJ had chosen to portray Denethor in a more sympathetic light. In the book, he was a very learned man and of course had much more depth, not this crazed lunatic ( although wonderfully portrayed by John Noble) who was beaten up more than a few times by Gandalf's staff.
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The only thing that PJ concentrated on was how much Denethor judged Faramir. I felt bad for book Denethor movie, but I loathed the movie version, the same with Faramir. Though I feel Theoden was done well, though he was too reluctant in The Two Towers movie, but all that was made up for in the Return of the King movie.
 
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