Does anyone knows what happened between Lion,witch and wardrobe and Prince Caspian?

PunkMaister

PunkMaister

New member
There's a 3000 year gap between the 2 stories and by then there's a strong human presence in Narnia that was obviously not there before, so the question is when and how did all the humans by the time of Prince Caspian got there! Who were the first the Calormen or the Ancestors of Caspian or did both arrive at the same time?
 
I don't know exactly, but the Telmarines *Caspian and his ancestors* came in more than likely after the Calormenes.

my reasoning? in the Horse and His Boy *which is set before the Pevensies vanished back into our world* the Calormenes were firmly established in Calormen. so in answer to your question, I believe the Calormenes were first and that the Telmarines came in later; probably only 200 years or more before PC. Aslan told the Narnians, pevensies, adn TElmarines in PC that the Telmarines were really not from Narnia or Telmar at all; they had *I think* found their way into Narnia by way of portals in our world, which led them to Narnia adn thus a new way of life\civilzation and to a new race of humans. hope that answers your question :)
 
Oh PunkMaister, you do need to take a course in Narnian History.

First, it had only been about 1,000 years (the movie has it at 1,300) between the end of LWW and the beginning of PC.

In the beginning...OK, in Magician's Nephew, it is stated that Archenland, the kingdom in the mountains that separate Narnia and the Desert of Calormen, was founded by the second son of Frank I and Helen I, the first king and queen of Narnia. It is not stated how Calormen was founded, but it may have been by some Archenlanders possibly some years after the founding of Archenland.

If you read Horse and His Boy, you will note that the Calormen civilization is already well established during the time of the Pevensie rule. The Telmarines, who as Aravis stated, were the ancestors of Caspian, came into the world of Narnia (not the country) possibly at some point after the Pevensies left. They came from Earth into a country called Telmar (at least that is what they called it). There were 16 of them who first established it and stayed there for many generations until they discovered the pass into Narnia where they took over. Going by the presumption that all Caspians I-IX named their first-born sons after themselves, and that they all had sons, the Telmarines could have been in Narnia for about 300-500 years. Add a good number of extra generations in Telmar for them to attain a sizeable force to be able to conquer Narnia and it could have been about 600-800 Narnian years since leaving Earth. That puts them at about 200-400 years after LWW that they first got to the world of Narnia.

MrBob
 
I'm surprised to hear that Calormen were there during Jadis rule! Jadis knowing the threat humans posed to her rule, would have had them exterminated! Woudn't she?
 
Mr. Bob said:

That puts them at about 200-400 years after LWW that they first got to the world of Narnia.
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he said it was after Jadis' rule, which would be during the Pevensie's Golden Age in narnia. but yes, if they had been there during Jadis' time, there would probably not have been any more Calormenes by the time of HHB, SC,etc....
 
Aravis Kenobi said:
Mr. Bob said:



he said it was after Jadis' rule, which would be during the Pevensie's Golden Age in narnia. but yes, if they had been there during Jadis' time, there would probably not have been any more Calormenes by the time of HHB, SC,etc....
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Oops :eek: My bad! But for a moment I thought they said it preceeded TLWW but as you said had they been they would have met about the same fate as the 12 colonies of Kobol in New Battlestar Galactica!
 
Where does it say that Jadis eliminated all humans outside of Narnia? She could have just placed impassible barriers, or something, you know.
 
We don't know much other than the Telmarines got there and took over, killing most of the old Narnians and driving the rest into hiding. I'm sure the Calormens were around then and the Archenlanders, but they didn't take over Narnia at the time. It's interesting that they never say much about the relationship between the Calormens and the Telmarines. I'm guessing they didn't like each other much. The Calormens and Archenlanders were probably around during the time of the White Witch but for some reasons never interacted I guess.
 
The Calormene and Archenlanders were both in their respective lands during the rule of Jadis. Jadis only ruled Narnia (and the islands that were a part of it). As long as the humans stayed in their lands and did not stray into Narnia, Jadis had no problems with them.

If you read Horse and His Boy, you will realize that the kingdoms of Calormen and Archenland were firmly established even during the rule of Jadis. From the book:

"Know, O enlightened Prince," said the Grand Vizier, "that until the year in which your exalted father began his salutary and unending reign, the land of Narnia was covered with ice and snow and was moreover ruled by a most powerful enchantress."

They knew about Jadis because they lived in Calormen during that time. They simply knew not to go into her domain where they would have been killed.

As I said, Archenland was founded by the second son of Frank I and Helen I in about the year 30. Jadis took over in about the year 900 with her defeat and the Pevensie rule in 1000. Humans were always in Narnia (the world) and did not disappear after Jadis' rise to power.

The others I was talking about who came about 200-400 years after LWW were the Telmarine ancestors, a group of 16 humans who came into Telmar (a land west of Narnia) who eventually, led by Caspian I, invaded Narnia and took over.

MrBob
 
MrBob said:
The Calormene and Archenlanders were both in their respective lands during the rule of Jadis. Jadis only ruled Narnia (and the islands that were a part of it). As long as the humans stayed in their lands and did not stray into Narnia, Jadis had no problems with them.

If you read Horse and His Boy, you will realize that the kingdoms of Calormen and Archenland were firmly established even during the rule of Jadis. From the book:

"Know, O enlightened Prince," said the Grand Vizier, "that until the year in which your exalted father began his salutary and unending reign, the land of Narnia was covered with ice and snow and was moreover ruled by a most powerful enchantress."

They knew about Jadis because they lived in Calormen during that time. They simply knew not to go into her domain where they would have been killed.

As I said, Archenland was founded by the second son of Frank I and Helen I in about the year 30. Jadis took over in about the year 900 with her defeat and the Pevensie rule in 1000. Humans were always in Narnia (the world) and did not disappear after Jadis' rise to power.

The others I was talking about who came about 200-400 years after LWW were the Telmarine ancestors, a group of 16 humans who came into Telmar (a land west of Narnia) who eventually, led by Caspian I, invaded Narnia and took over.

MrBob
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Are you telling me that a megalomaniac like Jadis left the rest of the Narnian world alone? Seems unatypical for her character. It sounds like Hitler getting conformed with just annexing Chekoslovaquia before WWII!:eek:

I always thought she ruled all of it, not just the main countryside...
 
All the dates and years in question are approximate, unless you want to buy into the much-published "Narnian timeline" (which I don't). We also don't know exactly how many Telmarines came through the portal into Telmar - it could have been 16, but it's never explicitly stated in any of the books.

Lewis never makes clear just what happened. It's obvious that Calormen existed, and Archenland. There was certainly turbulence in Narnia when the Kings and Queens vanished "without issue" (i.e. without heirs), though it needn't have been the same turbulence that provided an opportunity for the Telmarines.
 
I still find it near impossible to believe that someone like Jadis would have left the rest of the narnian world nations alone being the megalomaniac that she was!
 
Well, keep in mind a couple of things. First, the land of Narnia occupied a special position in the Narnian universe. It was the heart, the center. All the surrounding lands like the Northlands, the Western Wastes, the hot South, were all peripheral and occupied later by default. Narnia was where the creation of that universe began, and it was specially prized by Aslan. It was that land that Jadis coveted most, since the first day of its existence - I think partly because to dominate and enslave it would be a special blow against Aslan.

From the writer's perspective, remember that Lewis write Lion never envisioning any further Narnia stories. Then he added Caspian and Dawn Treader, and brought the series to a close (or so he thought). Then he added Horse and followed it with Silver Chair (though he published them in reverse order to keep the Caspian books together), and finally tidied up with Nephew and Last Battle. The story literally grew in the telling, and Lewis ended up with anomalies and inconsistencies that he never envisioned from the start.

One of these would have been the question of Jadis' imperial ambitions: having conquered Narnia, wouldn't it have been very much in her nature to expand her reign to Archenland at least? Very probably - but it's likely that when writing Lion, Lewis hadn't even thought up Archenland yet.

From "within", one could postulate that the Witch's power had limits. I think I read somewhere that she maintained eternal winter in Narnia by rebuking Spring when she came to relieve Winter of his reign over the land. Possibly she wasn't strong enough to do that any further than Narnia's borders.
 
Correction, there were 12 original Telmarines, not 16. PotW, Aslan does specifically tell the history of his people at the end of PC. Six pirates and their wives were chased by the other pirates after a major disagreement and found a chink that brought them to Telmar. I am assuming the pirates only took one wife.

I do agree with you, PotW, when you proposed why Jadis did not try to take any other land. Her power may not have been strong enough. But she was allies with the Northern Giants as well, so going after he would mean incurring their wrath as well.

MrBob
 
There were around 1000 years between the opening of "Prince Caspian" and the close of "The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe". The turbulence at the time the Telmarines invaded Narnia could have been caused by the strange disapearence of the Kings and Queens. the Tisroc(calormen king) could have seen that as an oppurtunity to attack Narnia, but gave up when the Telmarines invaded because they had nothing to do with the old Narnian magics.


Lewis wrote Lion as a stand-alone story, the he wanted to go back and explain how the lampost got there and other things so he started Nephew. He gave up at that time and wrote Caspian and Voyage instead.
he then went back and tried to write Nephew but because it worked with things from his childhood he wasn't reconciled with yet, he couldn't finish it. He then wrote Horse and Chair, then he tried again to finish Nephew but couldn't. So he wrote Battle and then changed some details relating to Digory Kirke and finished Nephew.

He made revisions to the first American printings, but decided to wait to add them to the British ones unitl he went back to work out inconsistencies he made when writing the sequals. But he passed away before he got the chance, and now for some reason the American publishers no longer publish the revised versions.
 
This inconsistencies are very troubling storywise speaking they just sort of break the continuity and in doing the very suspension of disbelief which is so important for this kind of material. Given the facts I think the movie version should just explain that the humans in Narnia came in only after Jadis was gone at some point during the rule of the Pevensies and so on. It is a far simpler more elegant and easier to understand explanation than having to somehow limit Jadis powers to just an area of the world of Narnia which even then does not satisfactory explain why would she allow humans to even live in the world of Narnia at all. Anybody like that would have at least sent raids and assasins until no human which we know were a totally direct threat to her rule would remain. I mean the way she ruled was thru fear and intimidation not unlike dictators such as Joseph Stalin and Saddam Hussein and Saddam even tried to assasinate George W Bush Sr! See my point?
 
PunkMaister said:
There's a 3000 year gap between the 2 stories and by then there's a strong human presence in Narnia that was obviously not there before, so the question is when and how did all the humans by the time of Prince Caspian got there! Who were the first the Calormen or the Ancestors of Caspian or did both arrive at the same time?
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3000 years is only a rough estimation of the time that passed. But anyway....
In the book Prince Caspian, it mentions an ancestor of Caspian, called Caspian the Conquer.(sp) He led a Telmarine army an took over Narnia cause there had been a famine in Telmar.
 
Catherine said:
3000 years is only a rough estimation of the time that passed. But anyway....
In the book Prince Caspian, it mentions an ancestor of Caspian, called Caspian the Conquer.(sp) He led a Telmarine army an took over Narnia cause there had been a famine in Telmar.
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Well still as I said the problem is that there way too many inconsistencies when it comes to this issue of humans in Narnia. Which is way it would be prefferable for the movieverse version to assume simply that humans only came to Narnia after Jadis rule and not before.
 
The estimate of the time between the disappearance of the Pevensies and the start of Prince Caspian ranges from 1000-1400 years. There were (obviously) ten generations between the Telmarine conquest and Prince Caspian, which only accounts for part of that time. What else happened we can only guess, though Lewis hinted to a young fan that he hoped that others would fill in that history.
 
PrinceOfTheWest said:
The estimate of the time between the disappearance of the Pevensies and the start of Prince Caspian ranges from 1000-1400 years. There were (obviously) ten generations between the Telmarine conquest and Prince Caspian, which only accounts for part of that time. What else happened we can only guess, though Lewis hinted to a young fan that he hoped that others would fill in that history.
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Hmmm.. Then the movieverse has already departed from that because in the movie is 3000 years not 1000 or a 1400. Which probably also mean that in the movieverse humans came in to Narnia only after Jadis was gone which makes far more sense than she ever letting humans live anywhere in the narnian world regardless of how far her permanent winter powers reached or not.
 
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