Father Time and "Under Me"

~Lava~

~Lava~

Well-known member
I just watched the BBC version of Silver Chair for the first time since I was a little, little kid. While watching it, something in my mind clicked for the first time despite reading the book many many times. Many take the meaning of the saying "Though under the earth and throneless now I be, Yet, while I lived, all Earth was under me." as a possible reference to the White Witch and as proof that the Lady of the Green Kirtle.

I would dispute that thought seeing as the Lady of the Green Kirtle is enthroned in the Underworld, however there is another being that the children came upon in their travels who the saying fits to a tee.

What think you guys, is the Epitath on the stone of the ruinous giant's city that of Father Time?

While not exactly dead, Father Time is not alive in the truest sense (a notion that Lewis discusses in VotDT with the lords at Ramandu's Island). When the children do see the Time Giant, the gnome who is leading them tells them that he was once a King in the Overland but has sunk down into the Deep Realm; in fact, even while sleeping, Time rules the whole world in a manner that the White Witch and the Lady of the Green Kirtle could only wish to do. I think that Father Time is the great king that caused "Under Me" to be written on the stone in the Ruinous City.
 
Possible, but it's a stretch. We know so little about the giantish culture that built and then abandoned the city, and less about Father Time. What we do know is that 1) he was much larger than even the giants, and 2) he seemed (from his looks) to be noble, not cruel or ignorant. I think it unlikely that he would have had such a thing cut as a memorial to himself, but it's possible.
 
Maybe Father Time had nothing to do with its writing but it was written about him. I don't think it is necessarily too common for people to write their own Epitaths.
 
Well, Prince Rilian claims the Emerald Witch told him that the giant king in question "caused this boast to be cut" about him, implying that the epitaph was carved at the king's direction.
 
Though under Earth and throneless now I be,
Yet whiile I lived, all Earth was under me.

That inscription has always puzzled me. They are in the World of Narnia, yet the capitalized name of Earth is used. They are not on Earth and even if Frank and Helen did begin calling the world Earth, would the Giants have continued that tradition?

I agree with Lava. When I first read the book, my thought was also that the inscription was meant for Father Time. Realize that it was Rillian who supposed that the inscription was an epitaph written by a boastful giant. That was never verified one way or the other. It also never states that the person for whom the inscription is dead. It merely states that he is under Earth and throneless, which describes Father Time in SC.

The only question was what kind of throne did he sit upon? In a sense, he was still controlling Narnia and all of Narnia was under his power of time.

MrBob
 
I wonder if this isn't a case of us overthinking. The first time I read the book, I too thought it referred to Father Time, but now I think it is exactly what Rilian said: a boast written by some ancient giant king.

The part that interests me more is the way Aslan used it. He took something that was, presumably, bad -- the after effects of a bad king, and used them for his own ends. The only part that didn't wear away was the "under me", the words Jill needed to see in order to tell Eustace and Puddleglum where to go next. I think Lewis was trying to use it as an example of how he believed God could derive good from bad situations.
 
I think that all the letters were capitalized. Remember that the 'E' in 'ME' was what they fell into during the blizzard.
 
Acknowledged PotW. It still does not explain why they are using the term "earth" for the ground or world. I was merely going by what the phrasing was in the book that Rillian quoted.

Another question is who could it have referred to? No one ever ruled all of the Narnian world. Archenland and Calormen were always free, independent nations. No resident of Ettinsmoor ever controlled Narnia. The closest it came was when Jadis, an ally of the Giants (particualrly the Harfang clan and their ilk), ruled Narnia but I highly doubt Jadis would have ordered an epitath to be carved and set in Ettinsmoor in what became the Ruined City.

If it was just Ettinsmoor that the giant controlled, it still does not make sense to refer to the ground/world as Earth beit a proper or common noun.

Meg, I do like your analysis of Aslan using the final words of an evil leader to guide the three down for such good.

MrBob
 
It still does not explain why they are using the term "earth" for the ground or world.
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Doesn't "earth" just mean "dirt" as well? It seems that's how it's being used in the first line, anyway. I don't think the dead king is boasting that he's underneath the planet of Narnia.

As for the second line, assuming Rilian's words have any truth to them, this was a BOAST, therefore the claim to have ruled all earth has absolutely no credibility. I've always assumed that whoever it was just lied about the extent of his/her power.

I think "earth" is just being used in the more archaeic sense--to mean a piece of ground, rather than a reference to the name of the ground that was being ruled. It's not the first time Lewis has used slightly awkward usages in order to make the language sound more medieval.

Additionally, the OED has an obsolete usage for "earth" that fits really well for the second line:
A country, land; portion of the earth's surface.
Click to expand...

EDIT: Having looked up some of the references in question, Father Time was actually a King of the "Overland" at one point. So maybe he is still an option for the reference in the poem?
 
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"I think "earth" is just being used in the more archaeic sense--to mean a piece of ground, rather than a reference to the name of the ground that was being ruled."

Meg, he actually used it both ways: "under Earth" meaning that he was under the ground and "all Earth" meaning the whole land. But what I am trying to get at is that Narnia was not on Earth. Why would they use a term that came from our planet? Of course, we actually do not know specifically what, if anything, the Narnians called their world.

I know-- this is just analyzing too much. Yes, Lewis just used the term so his audience could understand it better, but it would have been better if he had come up with better terms.

MrBob
 
I think you have point Mr Bob, but I suspect Lewis is being a bit liberal with his usage of Earth as referring the world so that he can construct this wonderful little lingustic jewel.

Being a linguist like Lewis, I love the way he adds things like this in. Obviously there's the switch round of 'under' and 'earth' to make the point, there's so much more hidden in there which is great. Notice the play on the two senses of the word 'under' in each line, as well as 'earth'. Then there's the use of 'be' rather than 'am' at the end of the first line to rhyme with 'me'. I think that adds evidence to why he chooses to use 'earth' in the odd sense. He's happy to break linguistic rules to make the poem work, so I'm sure he'd do the same with semantics. Then you've got the use of the passive to emphasise his dominion over everything!!

I love it :D
 
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