Lecures on Tolkien
- Thread starter Inklet
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Aslan the Wise one
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WOw. Think you for posting the link, I'm going to get them all....
Aslan the Wise one
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Do you know if were are any on Narnia or CSL.....
Though Southern Baptist Seminary is very Tolkien and Lewis friendly, Pearce is an expert on Tolkien. They would have listed the lectures on Lewis if they had them.
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Aslan the Wise one
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I looked around the site and did't find any, And by the way Parthian King i love you SIg, TWHF is a great book i have read it two times and thnking about reading it agian...........
Hey, Joe Pearce! I know that guy. He's the author who wrote that bio of Lewis I keep recommending, as well as a bio of Tolkien! You can find them both at www.ignatius.com, or on amazon or barnes&noble.
I'd love to hear what he has to say on Bombadil, as well as Theoden & Denethor. I've got kind of an interesting connection with him on those topics.
I'd love to hear what he has to say on Bombadil, as well as Theoden & Denethor. I've got kind of an interesting connection with him on those topics.
Aslan the Wise one
New member
The ones i have listend to are really good, I really like the frist one.
I have to say, this is really something. The Gheens Lectures are sort of the plum at Southern Seminary, a very prestigious lecture series held there every fall. The list of invited lecturers read like a who's who of theological scholarship (see the list in the above link). For SBTS President Al Mohler to invite Pearce, a conservative Catholic scholar, at all, not to mention for this impressive lecture series, speaks volumes. Mohler stands at the fore of the culture battles, a mighty general, as it were. (Mohler's personal book budget stands at about $10,000 per year.) The fact that he has Pearce come to one of the premier centers of Baptist and evangelical learning in the U.S. tells us something about where we stand:
1) It is an open recognition that the lines of alliance between Christian groups are being starkly redrawn. The question is no longer Catholic vs. Protestant, or Cessationist vs. Charismatic, etc., but rather genuinely god-fearing vs. secular minded, whatever your religious name tag. The environment is getting too hostile here in the liberal West to see things any other way. What is happening here is what we already see in countries such as Pakistan: Protestants and Catholics share places of worship and comfort each other in the face of brutal persecution.
2) It tells us that Tolkien and Lewis are as relevant in the cultural debate as ever, perhaps more so. SBTS would not have invited a Tolkien/Lewis scholar just because some movies have been made. For them, the stakes are too high for that.
Things are getting interesting...
1) It is an open recognition that the lines of alliance between Christian groups are being starkly redrawn. The question is no longer Catholic vs. Protestant, or Cessationist vs. Charismatic, etc., but rather genuinely god-fearing vs. secular minded, whatever your religious name tag. The environment is getting too hostile here in the liberal West to see things any other way. What is happening here is what we already see in countries such as Pakistan: Protestants and Catholics share places of worship and comfort each other in the face of brutal persecution.
2) It tells us that Tolkien and Lewis are as relevant in the cultural debate as ever, perhaps more so. SBTS would not have invited a Tolkien/Lewis scholar just because some movies have been made. For them, the stakes are too high for that.
Things are getting interesting...
I didn't know that Pearce was a Cathlolic.
As for a common cause that all Christians share, you're right.
Western Europe's done (including Britain, my British friends here). As long as we're afraid to offend anyone, how can we oppose evil?
Piglet has been declared illegal in the UK. Bacon's next. The Anglican church is so concerned about championing the rights of gays, lesbians, and the transgendered that it won't even notice when the muslims execute them all. Better to be killed by followers of Allah than ignored by followers of Christ!
Hey! I know how to make an eden on earth! Let's all beat our swords into plowshares and trust that muslims will do the same!
Who's with me?
As for a common cause that all Christians share, you're right.
Western Europe's done (including Britain, my British friends here). As long as we're afraid to offend anyone, how can we oppose evil?
Piglet has been declared illegal in the UK. Bacon's next. The Anglican church is so concerned about championing the rights of gays, lesbians, and the transgendered that it won't even notice when the muslims execute them all. Better to be killed by followers of Allah than ignored by followers of Christ!
Hey! I know how to make an eden on earth! Let's all beat our swords into plowshares and trust that muslims will do the same!
Who's with me?
The Theoden/Denethor thing:
I never noticed the common element in their names: "Den."
If you allow a stretch, "den" could be French for "of." Even if you don't, look at the other elements in their names.
Theoden: "Theo"
Denethor: "Thor"
Theoden gets a second chance, and Denethor gives into despair (think Thor-Norse gods-Ragnorak).
I never noticed the common element in their names: "Den."
If you allow a stretch, "den" could be French for "of." Even if you don't, look at the other elements in their names.
Theoden: "Theo"
Denethor: "Thor"
Theoden gets a second chance, and Denethor gives into despair (think Thor-Norse gods-Ragnorak).
I never saw that before, Inklet, but I find it remarkably astute, and entirely possible. Good work!
Actually, Pearce makes that point in one of the talks. I'd always thought it an interesting coincidence, but he states it explicitly.
Saruman
New member
Excellent thoughts in comparison between Théoden and Denethor. It never crossed my mind even to think of Théoden in the sense of Theo.
I have given some thought on this topic, and tend to believe that Denethor is the representation of the world governance by man. It is ultimately doomed to failure, that is until the Return of the King.
I have given some thought on this topic, and tend to believe that Denethor is the representation of the world governance by man. It is ultimately doomed to failure, that is until the Return of the King.
Black Jade
New member
Curumo, interesting take on Denethor, though I'm afraid I see him much differently. Rather than being the representation of all human governings, I see him as the example of the most corrupt and evil that find a way to make it in the world because of that corruptness, almost like what I see the US Gov't turning into.
Saruman
New member
To me Denethor was the furthest thing from evil. His heart and intentions were good, but he had lost his mind, in trying to rely on his own wisdom and on his own strength. In wrestling with the Enemy, he failed miserably. In a way, this can be said of any world governing system: men will rely on their own strength and wisdom, and through it they fail miserably. You are right...the U.S. Gov't, along with most every other Gov't in the world, is failing. It is just a sign of the times.
Black Jade
New member
Curumo, you have a point, maybe Denethor's heart was not corrupt/evil, but his actions certainly were, and I do think that the actions are far more important than the heart, but then maybe that isn't what you meant... *yawns* it's late *G*
Denethor Part 1
{Now you guys have me going. I once wrote a paper on Denethor for a literary group I belong to. Here's part of it.}
In The Lord of the Rings, Denethor the Steward of Gondor stands out as one of the few truly tragic figures. Neither a wretch like Gollum nor a traitor like Saruman, Denethor is supposedly one of the “good guys” – in fact, a pivotal figure in the struggle against Sauron. Yet for all that, when we meet him in the narrative he is already burdened by grief and worry. There are interesting parallels between his condition and that of Théoden under the sway of Wormtongue, but there is no Théoden-esque redemption for Denethor. From grief he descends through despair into destruction, finally and defiantly taking his own life in a terrible self-immolation. Despite his strategic role as leader of Gondor, the oldest and strongest foe of Mordor, he never takes part in the great battle outside Minas Tirith – in fact, he never even leaves the Citadel. Without ever facing his foes, he falls to Sauron’s strategies, to the loss and grief of many.
How did this happen? What caused this tragedy? And what might we learn from Denethor to avoid making the same mistakes?
Many factors certainly contribute, but the greatest seems to be this: Denethor thinks he knows more than he actually does. In the end, it is not what he knows, but what he thinks he knows but doesn’t, that overthrows him. He is strategically deceived by his greatest foe, and it is in this deception that the lesson lies.
There is no questioning Denethor’s motives. He is strong and well-intentioned. Like all in Lord of the Rings, he was born into troubled times – something that was much more obvious and weighed more heavily upon him and his land than it did on residents of Bree or Dale. When Denethor was a young man, during the stewardship of his grandfather Turgon, Sauron returned to Mordor, declared himself openly, and Mount Doom erupted again. The stewardship of Denethor’s father Ecthelion was marked by increased hostility on the border between the two realms. Denethor, “foreseeing that the assault of Mordor would come in his own time”[font="][1][/font], was keenly – almost obsessively – aware of Gondor’s place in the ancient battle against the darkness.
In the mounting pressure of these circumstances, Denethor did what no other steward had dared do: he looked into the palantír – the Seeing-Stone – of the White Tower. The reason none of the stewards had done this was that the corresponding palantír of Minas Ithil had come into Sauron’s hands when that city fell over a thousand years before. The earlier stewards had known something that Denethor either didn’t know or knew but ignored: that with one palantír in Sauron’s control, it wasn’t safe to look into the others. But Denethor, feeling that his need for knowledge outweighed the risks, and deeming himself strong enough to contend with Sauron, took that fateful step.
What followed was succinctly explained by Gandalf after Denethor’s fall:
It is easy to understand the lure of the palantír. In a day when travel took months and message delivery was sketchy at best, the ability to see long distances would be a formidable advantage. For a high lord in a time of crisis, it would have taken the sternest discipline not to seek that advantage. Perhaps the prior stewards knew what would happen if they did, or perhaps they merely feared the unknown consequences. Denethor, out of a combination of pride and fear, rejected the wisdom of his fathers and risked what they would not.
It is important to remember why this was such a risk. Since Sauron had one of the palantíri, he could control the others, either by raw strength of will or by dark wizardry or by some combination thereof. When Aragorn sought to use the stone at Helm’s Deep, he first had to “[wrench] the stone to my own will.”[font="][4][/font] Thus when Denethor used the palantír, he was, in some sense, putting himself under Sauron’s control. But as Gandalf states, Denethor was too strong to be directly subdued, so the enemy adopted a more subtle and poisonous strategy. Sauron allowed Denethor to see with the palantír, but retained control of what he saw. Denethor was seeing reality, but a carefully crafted and edited version – something that ultimately proved more damaging than ignorance would have been.
But isn’t knowledge always better than ignorance? The example of Denethor would indicate otherwise, but it is important to understand why. As Gandalf explained after the Battle of the Pelennor Fields:
In Denethor’s case, what he saw was important. As Gandalf explained, he was allowed to see "the great might of Mordor" – the armies of orcs massing along Anduin, perhaps, or the men of Rhǔn or Harad marching to Sauron’s aid. He may have been shown visions of the flying Nazgûl, as Pippin had seen. It is certain that what he saw was intimidating, in the most literal sense of that word. “I have seen more than thou knowest, Gray Fool…All the East is moving,”[font="][6][/font] he sneers at Gandalf in Rath Dínen.
[font="][1][/font] Lord of the Rings, Houghton Mifflin single volume paperback edition, Appendix A, p. 1031.
[font="][2][/font] Ibid, The Pyre of Denethor, p. 838
[font="][3][/font] Ibid, p. 838
[font="][4][/font] Ibid, The Passing of the Grey Company, p. 763
[font="][5][/font] Ibid, p. 860
[font="][6][/font] p. 835
{Now you guys have me going. I once wrote a paper on Denethor for a literary group I belong to. Here's part of it.}
Knowledge worse than ignorance
Discouragement is a good sign. It shows you’ve been trying to do something in your own strength.
Mother Teresa
In The Lord of the Rings, Denethor the Steward of Gondor stands out as one of the few truly tragic figures. Neither a wretch like Gollum nor a traitor like Saruman, Denethor is supposedly one of the “good guys” – in fact, a pivotal figure in the struggle against Sauron. Yet for all that, when we meet him in the narrative he is already burdened by grief and worry. There are interesting parallels between his condition and that of Théoden under the sway of Wormtongue, but there is no Théoden-esque redemption for Denethor. From grief he descends through despair into destruction, finally and defiantly taking his own life in a terrible self-immolation. Despite his strategic role as leader of Gondor, the oldest and strongest foe of Mordor, he never takes part in the great battle outside Minas Tirith – in fact, he never even leaves the Citadel. Without ever facing his foes, he falls to Sauron’s strategies, to the loss and grief of many.
How did this happen? What caused this tragedy? And what might we learn from Denethor to avoid making the same mistakes?
Many factors certainly contribute, but the greatest seems to be this: Denethor thinks he knows more than he actually does. In the end, it is not what he knows, but what he thinks he knows but doesn’t, that overthrows him. He is strategically deceived by his greatest foe, and it is in this deception that the lesson lies.
There is no questioning Denethor’s motives. He is strong and well-intentioned. Like all in Lord of the Rings, he was born into troubled times – something that was much more obvious and weighed more heavily upon him and his land than it did on residents of Bree or Dale. When Denethor was a young man, during the stewardship of his grandfather Turgon, Sauron returned to Mordor, declared himself openly, and Mount Doom erupted again. The stewardship of Denethor’s father Ecthelion was marked by increased hostility on the border between the two realms. Denethor, “foreseeing that the assault of Mordor would come in his own time”[font="][1][/font], was keenly – almost obsessively – aware of Gondor’s place in the ancient battle against the darkness.
In the mounting pressure of these circumstances, Denethor did what no other steward had dared do: he looked into the palantír – the Seeing-Stone – of the White Tower. The reason none of the stewards had done this was that the corresponding palantír of Minas Ithil had come into Sauron’s hands when that city fell over a thousand years before. The earlier stewards had known something that Denethor either didn’t know or knew but ignored: that with one palantír in Sauron’s control, it wasn’t safe to look into the others. But Denethor, feeling that his need for knowledge outweighed the risks, and deeming himself strong enough to contend with Sauron, took that fateful step.
What followed was succinctly explained by Gandalf after Denethor’s fall:
“…as the peril of his realm grew [Denethor] looked into the stone and was deceived: far too often, I guess, since Boromir departed. He was too great to be subdued to the will of the Dark Power, he saw nonetheless only those things that the Power permitted him to see. The knowledge he obtained was, doubtless, often of service to him; yet the vision of the great might of Mordor that was shown to him fed the despair of his heart until it overthrew his mind.”[font="][2][/font]
Much could be said about other aspects of Denethor’s personality and attitudes, the choices he made and why he made them. But let us focus on this particular choice, which Gandalf called “…the way by which [Sauron’s] will was able to enter into the very heart of the city.”[font="][3][/font]
It is easy to understand the lure of the palantír. In a day when travel took months and message delivery was sketchy at best, the ability to see long distances would be a formidable advantage. For a high lord in a time of crisis, it would have taken the sternest discipline not to seek that advantage. Perhaps the prior stewards knew what would happen if they did, or perhaps they merely feared the unknown consequences. Denethor, out of a combination of pride and fear, rejected the wisdom of his fathers and risked what they would not.
It is important to remember why this was such a risk. Since Sauron had one of the palantíri, he could control the others, either by raw strength of will or by dark wizardry or by some combination thereof. When Aragorn sought to use the stone at Helm’s Deep, he first had to “[wrench] the stone to my own will.”[font="][4][/font] Thus when Denethor used the palantír, he was, in some sense, putting himself under Sauron’s control. But as Gandalf states, Denethor was too strong to be directly subdued, so the enemy adopted a more subtle and poisonous strategy. Sauron allowed Denethor to see with the palantír, but retained control of what he saw. Denethor was seeing reality, but a carefully crafted and edited version – something that ultimately proved more damaging than ignorance would have been.
But isn’t knowledge always better than ignorance? The example of Denethor would indicate otherwise, but it is important to understand why. As Gandalf explained after the Battle of the Pelennor Fields:
“The Stones of Seeing do not lie, and not even the Lord of Barad-dûr can make them so. He can, maybe, by his will choose what things shall be seen by weaker minds, or cause them to mistake the meaning of what they see.”[font="][5][/font]
In his desperation, Denethor sought the palantír for knowledge; what he got was propaganda. This propaganda had a very specific intent: to crush any hope in Denethor’s heart and drive him to despair. The narrative never explains exactly how the palantíri work, but Aragorn’s description of his ordeal at Helm’s Deep indicates that they could be directed to show whatever the viewer wished, or had the strength and skill to see. Clearly, if what the stone displayed to a person could be controlled, that control would be a powerful means to manipulate what that person knew – or thought he knew.
In Denethor’s case, what he saw was important. As Gandalf explained, he was allowed to see "the great might of Mordor" – the armies of orcs massing along Anduin, perhaps, or the men of Rhǔn or Harad marching to Sauron’s aid. He may have been shown visions of the flying Nazgûl, as Pippin had seen. It is certain that what he saw was intimidating, in the most literal sense of that word. “I have seen more than thou knowest, Gray Fool…All the East is moving,”[font="][6][/font] he sneers at Gandalf in Rath Dínen.
[font="][1][/font] Lord of the Rings, Houghton Mifflin single volume paperback edition, Appendix A, p. 1031.
[font="][2][/font] Ibid, The Pyre of Denethor, p. 838
[font="][3][/font] Ibid, p. 838
[font="][4][/font] Ibid, The Passing of the Grey Company, p. 763
[font="][5][/font] Ibid, p. 860
[font="][6][/font] p. 835
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Denethor Part 2
{This is more, though it isn't the whole paper. If anyone's interested, I can send them the full thing.}
But what was ultimately most important was what Denethor didn’t see. He didn’t see the Ringbearer creeping steadily toward his goal. He didn’t see the courage of the Rohirrim at Helm’s Deep or the strength of the Ents at Isengard. He didn’t see the seedling of the White Tree sprouting in the hallow on Mount Mindolluin. And – in perhaps the second greatest irony of the tale – he didn’t see that the corsairs sailing up Anduin contained not foes, but allies who would turn the tide of the battle. “…even now the wind of thy hope cheats thee and wafts up Anduin a fleet with black sails. The West has failed,”[font="][7][/font] he taunts, taking bitter satisfaction in knowing – so he thinks – more than those around him. Some of the things Denethor didn’t see were because Sauron didn’t know them himself, such as the location of the Ringbearer. Other things, such as the defeat of the forces of Umbar at Pelargir, Sauron wasn’t about to let Denethor see.
This crafty strategy of revealing certain things and hiding others had two notable effects upon the Steward of Gondor. The first was to convince him that he knew things that he didn’t really know. He knew that the Black Fleet was full of enemies. He knew the West had failed. He even knew what Gandalf was thinking – “Do I not know thee, Mithrandir?…I have read thy mind and its policies.”[font="][8][/font] Of course, he knew no such thing – he was wrong on all these counts, as well as several others – but the fascinating effect of the palantír had deceived him completely.
The other effect of the selective vision of the palantír was something that dovetailed tragically with Denethor’s psychology. Raised as he was in the twilight of a great realm, in the shadow of a growing threat from the ancient enemy, the only good he could see was the good that was passing away. In part he was correct – the good that was Old Gondor was passing away; even Gandalf admits as much (“…so pass also the days of Gondor that you have known; for good or evil they are ended.”[font="][9][/font]) But what he was unable to do was see any possibility of good beyond that loss. Consider the following exchange:
[font="][7][/font] Ibid.
[font="][8][/font] Ibid.
[font="][9][/font] p. 836
{This is more, though it isn't the whole paper. If anyone's interested, I can send them the full thing.}
But what was ultimately most important was what Denethor didn’t see. He didn’t see the Ringbearer creeping steadily toward his goal. He didn’t see the courage of the Rohirrim at Helm’s Deep or the strength of the Ents at Isengard. He didn’t see the seedling of the White Tree sprouting in the hallow on Mount Mindolluin. And – in perhaps the second greatest irony of the tale – he didn’t see that the corsairs sailing up Anduin contained not foes, but allies who would turn the tide of the battle. “…even now the wind of thy hope cheats thee and wafts up Anduin a fleet with black sails. The West has failed,”[font="][7][/font] he taunts, taking bitter satisfaction in knowing – so he thinks – more than those around him. Some of the things Denethor didn’t see were because Sauron didn’t know them himself, such as the location of the Ringbearer. Other things, such as the defeat of the forces of Umbar at Pelargir, Sauron wasn’t about to let Denethor see.
This crafty strategy of revealing certain things and hiding others had two notable effects upon the Steward of Gondor. The first was to convince him that he knew things that he didn’t really know. He knew that the Black Fleet was full of enemies. He knew the West had failed. He even knew what Gandalf was thinking – “Do I not know thee, Mithrandir?…I have read thy mind and its policies.”[font="][8][/font] Of course, he knew no such thing – he was wrong on all these counts, as well as several others – but the fascinating effect of the palantír had deceived him completely.
The other effect of the selective vision of the palantír was something that dovetailed tragically with Denethor’s psychology. Raised as he was in the twilight of a great realm, in the shadow of a growing threat from the ancient enemy, the only good he could see was the good that was passing away. In part he was correct – the good that was Old Gondor was passing away; even Gandalf admits as much (“…so pass also the days of Gondor that you have known; for good or evil they are ended.”[font="][9][/font]) But what he was unable to do was see any possibility of good beyond that loss. Consider the following exchange:
[Gandalf:] “What then would you have, if your will could have its way?”
[Denethor:] “I would have things as they were in all the days of my life, and in the days of my long-fathers before me: to be Lord of the City in peace… But if doom denies me this, I will have naught, neither life diminished, nor love halved, nor honor abated.”
Notice the narrow scope of Denethor's vision: he yearns for the "good ol' days", but he can not or will not see the possibility of any other good. Furthermore, if he can’t have that, he’ll take his marbles and go home – which he does, and nearly takes Faramir’s marbles with him. His terrible suicide is possibly the greatest irony of all. Gondor was on the threshold of the greatest Golden Age of its history – the reign of King Elessar. Had Denethor but the hope, or the courage, or even the simple sense of duty of a common guard like Beregond, he could have had a part – indeed, a place of honor and power – in that new order. But because he despaired, he lost all of it, and his son Faramir fell (deservedly) heir to what should have been Denethor’s. [Denethor:] “I would have things as they were in all the days of my life, and in the days of my long-fathers before me: to be Lord of the City in peace… But if doom denies me this, I will have naught, neither life diminished, nor love halved, nor honor abated.”
[font="][7][/font] Ibid.
[font="][8][/font] Ibid.
[font="][9][/font] p. 836
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