Minotaurs

[Peepiceek]

Here's something I've been pondering. In the PC and VDT films, minotaurs are represented as being in Caspian's service. In PC (film), Trufflehunter notes that, "A common enemy unites even the oldest of foes." However, this is in contrast to the book. While minotaurs are not mentioned, there is an incident when Caspian meet some black dwarfs, as follows:

"Shall we go farther up for you, up to the crags? There's an Ogre or two and a Hag that we could introduce you to, up there."
"Certainly not," said Caspian.
"I should think not, indeed," said Trufflehunter. "We want none of that sort on our side." Nikabrik disagreed with this, but Trumpkin and the Badger overruled him. It gave Caspian a shock to realize that the horrible creatures out of the old stories, as well as the nice ones, had some descendants in Narnia still.
"We should not have Aslan for friend if we brought in that rabble," said Trufflehunter as they came away from the cave of the Black Dwarfs.

Now, in the books, Lewis seems to represent some creatures as being inherently bad, and that the good characters should have no association with them. I think he would include the minotaurs in that category. In the film, however, these two sides are seen not as good vs evil but more as disputing factions that subsequently overcome their disputes and work together. Neither is inherently good or bad, but can be brought together by a common enemy. The secular message of equality and tolerance rings clear.

Do you think this is a good shift from the book to the film, or is Lewis saying something important that we should hold on to?

Peeps

 

[Captain Holly]

Yes.....? I mean if a giant Minotaur wanted to side with you in a hostile, magical civil war, would you say no to that?

 

[Peepiceek]

Holly

You sound like Nikabrik. To continue the quoation from the chapter I posted earlier:

"I'll believe in anyone or anything," said Nikabrik, "that'll batter these cursed Telmarines to pieces or drive them out of Narnia. Anyone or anything, Aslan or the White Witch, do you understand?"

Surely you have to exercise some discernment about whom you ally yourself with?

Peeps

 

[Captain Holly]

I find that to be a contradiction with him considering he's a Dwarf, known servants of the white witch along with the minotaurs themselves during her reign. The difference is, LWW and PC take place in different times where things changed drastically. This does not exclude change for minotaurs, and obviously, the dwarfs. To brand enemies just reliant on their species and origins, (like Redwall) especially in a time of great need, would prove to be a unproductive and harmful practice. I also enjoyed the addition of the allied minotaurs myself, actually. I thought it was cool!

 

[Peepiceek]

Holly

1) You miss the point that the reason Trufflehunter (film) gives for the inclusion of minotaurs is not because they have changed but because they are now fighting a common enemy.

2) Do you think that Lewis's point in the book was wrong and therefore that the film-maker were right to correct this? (I'm not talking about whether having minotaurs 'worked' or whether it was 'cool', but rather about whether the shift in emphasis from book to film was a good, bad or neutral development on Lewis's themes.)

Peeps

 

[CORIN THUNDERFIST II]

In most fantasy literature and films, certain creatures are represented, rightly or wrongly, as being inherently evil. For example, has anyone heard of good orcs, trolls etc? Trying to be objective (not always easy when one is role-playing a minotaur in 'With Sword, Claws and Teeth Unbared'!) I wonder whether minotaurs might come under that category? Dwarves are, perhaps, different: Mr and Mrs Beaver suggested that they had known some good dwarves, when talking to the Pevensies in 'The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe'. I take the view that in 'Prince Caspian' the minotaurs, hag, werewolf etc were only willing to help Caspian because they hated Miraz and the Telmarines even more. If Jadis had been successfully brought back, after the Telmarines had been dealt with, whose side do you think they would have been on when Jadis turned her attention on Caspian, the Pevensies and their followers? The fact that in the films 'Prince Caspian' and 'Voyage of the Dawn Treader' minotaurs appear to have joined the 'good guys' is possibly done for reasons which C.S Lewis, who wrote the books over half a century ago when society was quite different to what it is now, never intended. Those are my thoughts on the matter, right or wrong.

 

[Hermit of Archenland]

I think a case can be made for both viewpoints.

I do accept Lewis' point that even in the direst emergencies you need to be cautious about who you ally yourself with.

On the other hand I find the implication in the book that certain classes of creatures are inherently evil rather uncomfortable. From a wider perspective we need to consider how creatures like the minotaurs actually came into existence. I don't think Lewis would have found the idea that the witch created them acceptable; that would give her powers comparable to Aslan's. If he even thought about the issue at all it's more likely he conceived of them being originally good but corrupted by the witch. That being so, there's no reason why without the witch's influence and having common cause with the other Narnians they couldn't have been at least partially reformed. But I would have been happier if the film stated that explicitly instead of depicting the alliance as one entirely of convenience. If the portrayal of the minotours as 'good guys' had been done on those lines I would have seen it as an improvement on what Lewis wrote

 

[CORIN THUNDERFIST II]

I agree, the witch could not possibly have created minotaurs or any other race. However, is it not possible that she brought them into existence by carrying out foul experiments on humans and bulls, using dark magic, and what we would call genetics and selected breeding, possibly using a process she had used whilst queen of Charn?

 

[Hermit of Archenland]

I agree, the witch could not possibly have created minotaurs or any other race. However, is it not possible that she brought them into existence by carrying out foul experiments on humans and bulls, using dark magic, and what we would call genetics and selected breeding, possibly using a process she had used whilst queen of Charn?

Yes, it is possible I suppose. That would be similar to Tolkien where the Orcs were bred by Morgoth from captured Elves.

This raises of course the vexed question of nature vs nuture. Dogs can be bred for qualities such as aggression, but is it possible to genetically manipulate humans to make them inherently evil, incapable of redemption? I don't beleive it is and I doubt Lewis would have either.

Remember in Narnia Talking Animals and other intelligent species have to some extent the role humans have in our world as stewards of creation. The scene in TMN where Aslan breathes on the animals he selected to turn them into Talking Beasts is a clear parallel to the account of human creation in Genesis. So if it's not possible with humans it shouldn't be possible with the other Narnians races either.

Basically my view on this it that it's not at all inconsistent with Lewis' vision of Narnia and his overall theology to think that some former allies of the White Witch might have reformed. I just wish the film had managed it better

 

[Peepiceek]

So could a hag or ogre have reformed, in Lewis's view, do you think?

Peeps

 

[Copperfox]

So could a hag or ogre have reformed, in Lewis's view, do you think?
Peeps

I like to think that Lewis would agree. After all, he himself was a bitter enemy to God for many years, and God still did not begrudge him grace.

Many fans of Tolkien fail to think through the implications of the Middle-Earth wars pitting whole races against whole races. Hippies of the Sixties, who would curse the United States for doing ANYTHING military, delighted in reading Tolkien's accounts of a TOTALLY MERCILESS war of absolute extermination. As far as Tolkien encourages us to think, either EVERY Troll and Orc in the world had to be killed, or else EVERY Dwarf and Elf in the world had to be killed.

Objections against this no-prisoners, no-mercy view of good against evil are THE chief reason for my writing my rather unconventional fanfic novels, "Emmett and Queenie at Narnia's End," and "Emmett and Queenie at the Cleansing of Mordor." These tales, the second still in progress, can be found on a shared thread in Writing Club.

 

[Peepiceek]

Well, I think he would agree in a metaphysical sense, but I can't imagine him ever having written a good hag, ogre or minotaur into his Narnia stories.

Peeps

 

[MrBob]

We know there were good dwarves and bad dwarves, good giants and bad giants, good humans and bad humans.

But what should also be considered is that Truffle knew Nik. Nik was a black dwarf, possibly descendant of the dwarfs favorable to the White Witch, and yet Truffle and Trumpkin both allowed him into the inner circle. There may have been good hags, but no one went to find them.

MrBob

 

[Peepiceek]

Are you really suggesting that that is was Lewis intended us to understand?

Peeps

 

[Hermit of Archenland]

Well, I think he would agree in a metaphysical sense, but I can't imagine him ever having written a good hag, ogre or minotaur into his Narnia stories.

Peeps

Probably not, but Lewis was writing for children and in each book was exploring limited moral and theological themes. Having creatures normally considered evil as good would introduce a degree of moral sophistication into stories he wanted to keep simple and straightforward. Perhaps he was underestimating his audience but exploring such themes would probably have made the books longer and more complex than he wanted them to be

 

[Peepiceek]

But I would have been happier if the film stated that explicitly instead of depicting the alliance as one entirely of convenience. If the portrayal of the minotours as 'good guys' had been done on those lines I would have seen it as an improvement on what Lewis wrote

So, given that the film didn't make this clear, do you think the shift of emphasis was a good development from Lewis or a bad one?

Peeps

 

[Hermit of Archenland]

So, given that the film didn't make this clear, do you think the shift of emphasis was a good development from Lewis or a bad one?

Peeps

Oh dear, you're really putting me on the spot here!

it's hard to answer that but overall I would probably say good, because I understand their motives, even though they weren't as clear as I'd like

 

[Peepiceek]

Fair enough. I'm not sure I agree, but I accept your reasoning.

Peeps

 

[Sir Tom the Dragon Knight]

I like to think that Lewis would agree. After all, he himself was a bitter enemy to God for many years, and God still did not begrudge him grace.

Many fans of Tolkien fail to think through the implications of the Middle-Earth wars pitting whole races against whole races. Hippies of the Sixties, who would curse the United States for doing ANYTHING military, delighted in reading Tolkien's accounts of a TOTALLY MERCILESS war of absolute extermination. As far as Tolkien encourages us to think, either EVERY Troll and Orc in the world had to be killed, or else EVERY Dwarf and Elf in the world had to be killed.

Objections against this no-prisoners, no-mercy view of good against evil are THE chief reason for my writing my rather unconventional fanfic novels, "Emmett and Queenie at Narnia's End," and "Emmett and Queenie at the Cleansing of Mordor." These tales, the second still in progress, can be found on a shared thread in Writing Club.

I've often pondered these things. I've considered what it may be like if a goblin were to convert to being a good guy and run away from his evil kin. I also figured unless he was well-protected or clever, he'd likely be shot down by unwitting good guys before he made it very far, unfortunately.

 

[Xenithar]

I thought putting the minotaurs on the side of good in the movies added an interesting dynamic to the world of Narnia. As a fantasy buff, I like the kinds of stories that have different races, and I like how they portrayed them as not being inherently bad.

As for Lewis' theme, he may have been portraying some things as being absolutely bad or good to teach a moral lesson, especially for younger readers, but I don't think it's a problem that they changed that a bit in the movie. People can change from bad to good, and as I don't consider the minotaurs as animals and as sentient beings, why can they not change?