The Early Battles

[TimmyofOz]

I've been getting in an argument with Inkspot about the Prince Caspian movie. We all know that the Raid or Battle at Miraz's castle in the movie was a big failure by Peter and showed his lack of faith in Aslan. But in the book there were said to have been a lot of battles lead by Caspian with the old Narnians against Miraz's army before Caspian blew the horn for the Pevensie children to come. In fact Reepicheep also called for a raid against Miraz's castle and it was then that Caspian called for a war council. So the question is should have Caspian used the horn then before he went on this offensive against Miraz rather than wait till after his offensive failed as in the book. He was told the horn would bring help yet he seemed to doubt it would work.

 

[Copperfox]

In the actual _book_ of "Prince Caspian," doubting Aslan's presence in the woods was the _only_ blunder by Peter. All military errors in Caspian's army happened _before_ the Pevensies reached Caspian's camp; from there, Peter showed his wisdom and salvaged the situation. Andrew A-DUMB-son changed this for the movie because he likes to pull down and ridicule what is noble and worthy. He _wasn't_ making a Narnian movie when he made "Prince NON-Caspian," he was making another Shrek movie, only with a talking lion in it.

As for Caspian IN THE BOOK, it's hard to blame him for hesitating to use the horn. Having no familiarity with the nature of God/Aslan, he must have seen the horn as a magic thing whose use could go wrong in many possible ways, like an unreliable genie in a fantasy. He didn't want, no pun intended, to blow it.

 

[PrinceOfTheWest]

An additional factor was explained in the book: they'd agreed to blow the horn at dawn of the day Trumpkin left for the coast, but Miraz' army attacked them early, leaving them little breathing room. The delay in blowing the horn was due to practical factors, not doubt on Caspian's part.

And indeed, CF is right - all field military actions were performed before the arrival of the Kings. Peter's only tactical move was to challenge and engage Miraz in single combat.

 

[TimmyofOz]

You need to remember also that during the secret council Caspian was about the most reluctant to use the horn. He would say what if things get worse and we have used the horn too early. It was Nikabrik that says, "by that argument your Majesty will never use the it until it is too late." The Badger the one who had the most faith who lead the argument for the use of the horn. And it was Trumpkin who had no faith in the horn and we mustn't let word out of the secret council that the horn is being used.

 

[SunshineRose]

I think ideally Caspian should definitely have blown the horn before all the battles he waged went awry and his army was on the verge of total destruction, but it was my impression that he wasn't necessarily convinced that the horn would work and that if it did work it might only be a one time help thing, so he didn't want to ask for help unless he saw his army in a situation of dire extremity. I see Caspian's refusal to blow the horn being less about a lack of faith in Aslan and more about being part of a journey that would lead him to faith in Aslan.

 

[Copperfox]

It can at least be said that Caspian's actions, or his hesitation to act, was not motivated by a desire to _disobey_ Aslan in any way. Thus Caspian stands in contrast with Nikabrik, who really seemed to _enjoy_ trying to discredit Aslan.

 

[SunshineRose]

It can at least be said that Caspian's actions, or his hesitation to act, was not motivated by a desire to _disobey_ Aslan in any way. Thus Caspian stands in contrast with Nikabrik, who really seemed to _enjoy_ trying to discredit Aslan.

Good point. That's an important distinction between Caspain and Nikabrik.

 

[TimmyofOz]

We know that Caspian is an immature leader even in the VDT. Lewis blames him for the capture of the children on the Lone Islands.

 

[PrinceOfTheWest]

Really? Where does Lewis do this? He certainly attributes inexperience to Caspian, making a narrative comment that if he'd been as mature as he became later in the voyage, he wouldn't have done things as he did, but that's not quite the same as blaming him.

 

[TimmyofOz]

Saying his immaturity lead to the enslavement of the children in VDT is blaming Caspian. Let's be frank, Caspian lacked strategic command skills during the early battles. Here is a person who lived his entire life in his father's/uncle's castle, and was trained in the military skills of the Telmarines and yet according to the book was completely caught off guard on how large his uncle's forces were (this is clearly described in chapter 7 of PC). For centuries the old Narnians have kept themselves secret to the Telmarines, yet as soon as Caspian concentrated his forces the Narnians were discovered, another strategic mistake. You should never concentrate your forces for battle before knowing the size of your opposing army. He was in no means a General George Washington. By dispersing his forces and keeping to guerrilla warfare he could have worn out Miraz's army in a couple of years and sued for peace for the partition of Narnia with the eastern wooded and coastal part being Free Narnia. Because of Caspian's command skills he had lead his Narnia forces to the brink of destruction and it was only saved by the arrival of the old kings and queens and Aslan. What made this failure of a king worthy of Aslan's coronation of his kingship? Only his humility, bravery, and faith. I can find other faults in Caspian if I wanted (just look how he acted when he reached the end of the world in VDT, Aslan sure took him to the woodshed).

 

[PrinceOfTheWest]

Well, I guess that depends on how you define the term "blame". I'd use it more in situations where there was a culpable, deliberate moral failure, as opposed to carelessness due to inexperience.

No question that Caspian was immature and inexperienced, and others suffered for that. But that may have been one reason Lewis so loved the character, and we can relate to him so easily. He's Exhibit A of the principle that "apart from Me, you can do nothing." He didn't start with any pretensions of being king - he was just a fugitive from his murderous uncle. It was the Old Narnians who talked him into kingship. And you're right: in his own abilities, he was going nowhere fast, and taking his "kingdom" down with him.

But here's what I see as the lesson: he was giving it all he had, and it wasn't enough - but then Aslan stepped in to make up the difference. Even in his youthful inexperience, he didn't shirk the task before him, though he ultimately didn't have the resources to succeed. That's what Aslan expected of him. Caspian needed to get to the point where he knew he wasn't enough, which he did when facing rebellion among his commanders in the form of Nikabrik's little coup attempt. That's when help arrived in the form of the Ancient Kings. Notice the immediate action of the (more experienced) High King: to do whatever they could while awaiting Aslan's actions.

So if you want to call that "blaming" Caspian, I see your point - it just wouldn't be the wording I'd choose.

 

[inkspot]

In the actual _book_ of "Prince Caspian," doubting Aslan's presence in the woods was the _only_ blunder by Peter. All military errors in Caspian's army happened _before_ the Pevensies reached Caspian's camp; from there, Peter showed his wisdom and salvaged the situation. Andrew A-DUMB-son changed this for the movie because he likes to pull down and ridicule what is noble and worthy. He _wasn't_ making a Narnian movie when he made "Prince NON-Caspian," he was making another Shrek movie, only with a talking lion in it.

As for Caspian IN THE BOOK, it's hard to blame him for hesitating to use the horn. Having no familiarity with the nature of God/Aslan, he must have seen the horn as a magic thing whose use could go wrong in many possible ways, like an unreliable genie in a fantasy. He didn't want, no pun intended, to blow it.

An additional factor was explained in the book: they'd agreed to blow the horn at dawn of the day Trumpkin left for the coast, but Miraz' army attacked them early, leaving them little breathing room. The delay in blowing the horn was due to practical factors, not doubt on Caspian's part.

And indeed, CF is right - all field military actions were performed before the arrival of the Kings. Peter's only tactical move was to challenge and engage Miraz in single combat.

I think ideally Caspian should definitely have blown the horn before all the battles he waged went awry and his army was on the verge of total destruction, but it was my impression that he wasn't necessarily convinced that the horn would work and that if it did work it might only be a one time help thing, so he didn't want to ask for help unless he saw his army in a situation of dire extremity. I see Caspian's refusal to blow the horn being less about a lack of faith in Aslan and more about being part of a journey that would lead him to faith in Aslan.

I agree with all of this.

Over in the other thread, Timmy's point is that the producers of the film took Caspian's mistakes and put them on Peter's character, but that is not, in fact, the case. Caspians' only "mistake" as other have pointed out, is in not blowing the horn sooner, but he did seem to think it must be used only when all other hope failed, so the fact that he waited is excusable; also, he had fully intended to blow it at the appointed time, but was prevented by the ambush. To say that Caspian's character was blighted, and that all the producers of the film did was take his failures and transfer them to Peter is nonsense; Caspian's errors are owing to his inexperience, not to his being a spoiled brat, which is where film-Peter's errors seem to come from.

 

[Jadis-the-White]

Well, I guess that depends on how you define the term "blame". I'd use it more in situations where there was a culpable, deliberate moral failure, as opposed to carelessness due to inexperience.

No question that Caspian was immature and inexperienced, and others suffered for that. But that may have been one reason Lewis so loved the character, and we can relate to him so easily. He's Exhibit A of the principle that "apart from Me, you can do nothing." He didn't start with any pretensions of being king - he was just a fugitive from his murderous uncle. It was the Old Narnians who talked him into kingship. And you're right: in his own abilities, he was going nowhere fast, and taking his "kingdom" down with him.

But here's what I see as the lesson: he was giving it all he had, and it wasn't enough - but then Aslan stepped in to make up the difference. Even in his youthful inexperience, he didn't shirk the task before him, though he ultimately didn't have the resources to succeed. That's what Aslan expected of him. Caspian needed to get to the point where he knew he wasn't enough, which he did when facing rebellion among his commanders in the form of Nikabrik's little coup attempt. That's when help arrived in the form of the Ancient Kings. Notice the immediate action of the (more experienced) High King: to do whatever they could while awaiting Aslan's actions.

So if you want to call that "blaming" Caspian, I see your point - it just wouldn't be the wording I'd choose.

Caspian was a Boy and in Aslans How he was still a boy if you remember it was Peter and Edmund who stopped the revial of the white witch and not Caspian. Tell me who are these ancient kings, Frank was the first then Peter was made High King so who are these old kings?

 

[MrBob]

Actually Jadis, Caspian had already rejected your namesake. Peter and Edmund deliberately waited outside the chamber to see what would happen. They rushed in when the fight started.

But I agree that Caspian's youth is what caused problems. He was about 14 when the events of PC took place. That is far from old enough to understand military strategy. In LWW, Peter led the Narnians to battle at about the same age, but in that case, it was Aslan who was responsible for most of the strategic planning.

They tried a guerilla campaign, but it wasn't going as good as it could have gone. The biggest battle went wrong due in large part to Giant Wimbleweather's mistake.

As for the horn, Caspian imagined it to be a one time help for the situation only and that to use it too early when they were not in enough need, they wouldn't have that help when they were in dire need.

MrBob