Who Do You Say Aslan Is?

Sir Godfrey

Sir Godfrey

Pelegrin Crucis
At the climax of The Last Battle those who behold Aslan at the door into True Narnian react in four different ways. Some run to him in a rush of joy, others are apprehensive due to the deception of Shift and Puzzle (The Anti-Aslan), others hate the very sight of Aslan and want nothing to do with him, and finally ther are dwarves who decided that don't believe Aslan even exists. They decide to be for the dwarves and no one else. (Note: If any of you know the four ways the Narnians react to Aslan's Return verbetum, please post the quote in this thread, It's been a long time since I read the book).

This is powerful allegory of the words Jesus says, "Who do you say I am?" Many respond like Peter, "You are the Messiah, the Son of the Living God." Others respond quite differently. What do you think becomes of those who have been decieved? Lets just take the Narnians who believed in Tashlan. They were duped into beliving a lie and when the true Son-of-the-Emperor-Beyond-The-Sea appears they are hesistant to believe and even some turn their hearts against him. Do you think Aslan would have allowed even those who hate him into True Narnia, knowing that they had been decieved and are now angry at the sight of him?

I think of those people who were subjected to The Roman and Spanish Inqusitions. They were exposed to false-Christ. The image of the crucifix would stir in them much dread, horror, and anger. So that when Jesus Christ should appear to them, they might be hardened and hesistant to even give him a moment of their time. They were exposed to such false image of the Messiah, that seeing his Passion causing them not to be heart-broken and delighted that God paid the price for their sins, but instead it reminds them of dungeons and torture devices. So I wonder how Christ shall judge those subjected to the Inqusition and thus how Aslan would judge those who doubt him because of the lie crafted by Shift (Satan).

Please share your thoughts.
 
I think that God’s judgment is both just and merciful , taking into account both our knowledge (how much we have learned about Him) and culpability (how responsible we are for are actions) when determining our final destiny and whether we have the saving faith in Him necessary for us to spend eternity with Him. I believe that some of the beings who are deceived should know better (have read the Bible, been to church, raised by Christians, have Christians as friends, etc.) and should know better than to fall for the traps laid by the enemy to bring people away from Christ the Savior. The more knowledge one has of Christ, the more responsible one is for believing deception. The less knowledge that one has of Christ, the less accountable for being deceived one is. Of course, the person who deliberately deceives out of malice or to gain power, as with Shift, is the most culpable, and is clearly held accountable for deceiving people about the nature of God.

God calls people to be quick to believe in Him, no matter how much they have suffered, and to never turn their hearts away from Him, but always to love Him. Hardening our hearts against God is never a good path to salvation. However, again, there might still be room for God’s mercy to operate even here. I think it depends on the person’s knowledge and culpability, again here, as well as whether the person feels fear or hatred for God. In terms of knowledge, I think that if the person has more of a chance to believe in the true God as He reveals Himself, the more that person will be held accountable for not believing, and the more chance a person had to soften his heart toward God (and the more he chose to harden it in response) will mean the more responsible he is for rejecting the true God. If a person feels hatred toward God, I think that he cannot go to heaven, where people love God, simply because he has rejected God and will be miserable, not happy, with God. However, it is possible that someone who feels fear of God (based on what people who claimed to believe in God and claimed to be doing God’s will have done to them) might still be able to find peace in Heaven. In LB, some of the animals that end up in Aslan’s country looked on Him with fear, if my memory serves me correctly. Again, I also think that those who, claiming to do God’s will, commit sins that result in people hating God will be held accountable for those sins and for encouraging people to reject God, rather than see Him as their loving Savior.

With people who might have been driven mad by torture, I think that God will definitely reduce the amount of culpability that He assigns to each of their actions, since someone who is crazy cannot be said to be in full control of his thoughts and feelings.

Overall, I know that God’s Judgment will be just and merciful, and that I can’t see into others’ hearts or know exactly how God will judge everyone. I just know that His judgment will be more perfect and more wise than mine could ever be. I also believe that if we can see the nuances in things, He can certainly see them and arrive at a much better answer than we could. I take much comfort in that knowledge:D
 
I take Aslan at face value when he told Mr. Beaver that proper names would be restored to everyone by-and-by. Which means that those who hated the wrong Christ...a Christ that did not exist...would not be held guilty of hating the true Christ. So who is the Christ that does not exist? One some people claim is the true Christ born in the stable in Bethlehem but who demands hateful and vengeful things of them. You must know Christ's true nature in order to truly reject him.
 
For me, on a personal level, Aslan (Jesus) has always represented our Faithful Friend, always there in time of need. He is revered and respected by many as King, but it is His interactions in the quiet places that seem to speak loudest to me. Aslan is a close friend, in Who's Mane we can bury our head when we need a hug, like Lucy did. He is compassionate and aquainted with our sufferings, as is demonstrated when He listens to Shasta's sorrows. Aslan is a place of refuge when we are weary after the battle. Aslan is Someone Who knows and believes in me even when I do not necessarily know or believe in myself. What more can I say? He is everything to me and more.
 
I know not everyone will agree with this, but I feel that God has created many different worlds, and some of them would no doubt resemble Narnia. They might not be called Narnia...in fact it's highly unlikely they would. And in such worlds the immortal, invisible God would choose a form that best represents him to the locals.

There's that awful tendency of the human being to stress God's limitless mind and omnipresence yet balk at the idea that he can handle more than one world at once. The very definition of omnipresence, omniscience and omnipotence is that it is NO HARDER to manage a million worlds than it is to manage one, and NO EASIER to manage one world than a million. Why this frightens us is that it makes it much harder for us to imagine God as an old man in a pink toga and sandles.
 
I agree with you guys there but when it comes to me I would have to say that I think of Aslan as a graceful and majestic living being that cares for friend ship love and peace and that fighting amongst each other solves nothing.
 
I also think of God as a graceful and majestic living being that values love. Your point being? :eek:
 
My point is that I know that we have troops over in Iraq and Afghanastan but really do we really need them to be there like I know that there fighting to protect us but also I've been thinking is it really neccicary for us to be fighting amongst each other you know like we are all humans aka living being with the same purpose of life. So what if most people didn't like the way that god made this world. Those people should've just went their own seperate ways and live their own ways by their own beliefs.
 
Sir Godfrey said:
What do you think becomes of those who have been decieved? Lets just take the Narnians who believed in Tashlan. They were duped into beliving a lie and when the true Son-of-the-Emperor-Beyond-The-Sea appears they are hesistant to believe and even some turn their hearts against him. Do you think Aslan would have allowed even those who hate him into True Narnia, knowing that they had been decieved and are now angry at the sight of him?

I think of those people who were subjected to The Roman and Spanish Inqusitions. They were exposed to false-Christ. The image of the crucifix would stir in them much dread, horror, and anger. So that when Jesus Christ should appear to them, they might be hardened and hesistant to even give him a moment of their time. So I wonder how Christ shall judge those subjected to the Inqusition and thus how Aslan would judge those who doubt him because of the lie crafted by Shift (Satan).
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EveningStar said:
I take Aslan at face value when he told Mr. Beaver that proper names would be restored to everyone by-and-by. Which means that those who hated the wrong Christ...a Christ that did not exist...would not be held guilty of hating the true Christ. So who is the Christ that does not exist? One some people claim is the true Christ born in the stable in Bethlehem but who demands hateful and vengeful things of them. You must know Christ's true nature in order to truly reject him.
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I agree with ES, people who have believed a lie about Jesus get a chance to know the truth about Him, or judging them for their ignorance would be unfair, and we know that God can't be unfair. Emeth in TLB is the example from Narnia: he wanted to follow what was good, and when he discovered that Aslan was good, then -- although he was mystified by it -- he gave up Tash altogether and committed himself to following Aslan.

What i think Christians sometimes forget is that anyone who rejects Christ has believed a lie about Him because -- who, in their right mind -- would reject ultimate love, acceptance, peace, joy, etc? No one would if they weren't under the control of some evil that prevents their responding to such an offer of grace. And of course Jesus says in John 6:44, "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him," which would indicate it's not even our decision to come to God unless He enables us to do so ... so the case could be made that those who reject God do so just because the Spirit hasn't moved them to accept Him yet. But would God leave them out forever? Hardly! He loves them. Jesus said when He was lifted up, He would draw all people to Himself.

I think it's plain His desire is to make a way for everyone to come to Him, no matter how they've behaved toward Him in this life, or, so far.
 
inkspot said:
I agree with ES, people who have believed a lie about Jesus get a chance to know the truth about Him, or judging them for their ignorance would be unfair, and we know that God can't be unfair. Emeth in TLB is the example from Narnia: he wanted to follow what was good, and when he discovered that Aslan was good, then -- although he was mystified by it -- he gave up Tash altogether and committed himself to following Aslan.
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I agree with this. I believe that at the resurrection when Jesus returns, everyone will understand truly who Jesus is, and at that moment their true heart will be revealed. There may well be some who never heard of Jesus, or who heard of a 'false' Jesus and rejected him, who see Jesus and say, "Well, it wasn't what I was expecting, but I'm ready to love and serve this Jesus as King." These will experience Jesus' reign as heaven. Equally, there will be some who lived all their lives under the 'Christian' banner who realise with horror that this Jesus is not the Jesus they wanted, as he is not here to serve their own interests but they are here to serve his, and they hate him for it. They will experience his reign as hell. That is why (I think) the lake of fire is called the 'second death' - it is the death of the resurrection body, a perpetual death, from which there is no return because, unlike rejections of Jesus in this life, this rejection was not based on ignorance or deception but on full knowledge of who Jesus is and what they are rejecting.

This is what I think Lewis is portraying with the division of the creatures at the door in TLB. Note, incidentally, that the Emeths were few and the lost Narnians were many. While I believe it is possible that some in other religions may be saved, I believe they will be few and far between, and so evangelising them is necessary and urgent. Equally, while nearly all those who will be saved will have been Christians in this life, 'being a Christian' is not a guarantee of salvation... it is our attitude to and relationship with Jesus that matters. We need to make sure we get that right. He is King, I'm not!

What i think Christians sometimes forget is that anyone who rejects Christ has believed a lie about Him because -- who, in their right mind -- would reject ultimate love, acceptance, peace, joy, etc? No one would if they weren't under the control of some evil that prevents their responding to such an offer of grace. And of course Jesus says in John 6:44, "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him," which would indicate it's not even our decision to come to God unless He enables us to do so ... so the case could be made that those who reject God do so just because the Spirit hasn't moved them to accept Him yet. But would God leave them out forever? Hardly! He loves them. Jesus said when He was lifted up, He would draw all people to Himself.
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I wish I agreed with this, but I just can't see it in the Bible or in my experience. Actually, the truth is that many people reject Jesus in full knowledge of who he is because, like Lucifer, they want to usurp God's throne. Anyway, we've had that argument several times elsewhere, so we won't rehearse it again here ;)

Peeps
 
If they, like Lucifer want to usurp God's throne, doesn't that mean they aren't in their right mind because they're under the influence of Lucifer? Just saying ... :)
 
I have a thought on this. What God has always been after is our hearts, and it is the heart Jesus was always dealing with. Many people who didn't know the Truth were shown grace by the simple fact that Jesus constantly preached and performed miracles, to demonstrate God's love to us all. After being exposed to that Truth, it is then up to each person to decide if they will choose God or reject Him. To me, to reject God after having knowledge of Truth is to be out of one's mind, and God in His love will never force anyone to choose Him.
 
Interesting. So do you think Lucifer will be saved one day as well?

Peeps

(PS If I've gone off-topic, feel free to move me over to 'hijacking'!)
 
Peepiceek said:
Interesting. So do you think Lucifer will be saved one day as well?

Peeps

(PS If I've gone off-topic, feel free to move me over to 'hijacking'!)
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I don't think so. It says in the bible that :

"And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever." Rev. 20:10

I think it's pretty clear that the devil will fight God up until he is condemned to eternal punishment. I think that even if he were given the chance to repent, he wouldn't take it because he wouldn't want to be subservient to God. That was the reason he was kicked out of heaven in the first place. Those are just my thoughts. :)
 
Eustace, I agree with you (as, I think, will most people here). However, I am intrigued to know what Inky thinks on the matter, as well as how she will justify it biblically if she thinks Lucifer will be saved.

Peeps
 
Peepiceek said:
Interesting. So do you think Lucifer will be saved one day as well?

Peeps

(PS If I've gone off-topic, feel free to move me over to 'hijacking'!)
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Eustace C. Scrubb said:
I don't think so. It says in the bible that :

"And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever." Rev. 20:10

I think it's pretty clear that the devil will fight God up until he is condemned to eternal punishment. I think that even if he were given the chance to repent, he wouldn't take it because he wouldn't want to be subservient to God. That was the reason he was kicked out of heaven in the first place. Those are just my thoughts. :)
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I think this is way off topic, so I will answer over in the hijacking thread presently.

http://www.narniafans.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26552&highlight=hijacking
 
I fear that many in America and abroad are in the disposition of the Dwarves. Many seem to want to believe that there is no Aslan, that they are fending for only themselves. They don't even fall into the antagonistic group who loath the Great Lion. These disbelieving dwarves are like the humanists and trascendentalists. They fear not the Aslan or the Emperor-Beyond-The-Sea. They in their unbelief shall be consumed by the fires of the flying drakes and the rising oceans. Tis a shame, their fate tis a shame.
 
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