Are the Calormenes metaphorical?

Once a man dies, inkspot, he can no longer make a choice that will suddenly change the course of his future. God has given us this time, the here and now, to make our decisions. If we choose to refuse the call of Christ, after we have heard the truth of the Gospel, there remains no excuse for sin. When we die, our choices will already be set in motion. You can't suddenly choose Christ in the "afterlife."

As for those who, perhaps as in Emeth's case, never heard of the Gospel before, I know that our God is omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent. I believe He has a way to reach them with the message, whether through missionaries or even through the testimony of angels. But I know He is a just and merciful God...we will know with certainty when the time comes.
 
slideyfoot said:
If a major studio can adapt The Last Battle without delivering an enormous affront to Islamic groups, then I'd love to see it. I wouldn't call the desire to avoid insulting a large percentage of the world's population a 'whim', but a rather sensible perspective for a film studio to hold, particularly if they want to turn a profit. As the Narnia films are very clearly 'blockbusters', in the sense that a major studio is releasing them with serious money behind it, I doubt we'll see a direct adaptation of The Last Battle in the cinema. The Passion of the Christ managed it because a wealthy Christian fundamentalist stumped up a significant amount of cash himself; the film was successful, but certainly angered a lot of people, in particular the Jewish community. An accurate adaptation of The Last Battle would be equally if not more offensive to the Islamic community as The Passion of the Christ was to the Jewish.

I think PotW addresses your thoughts very well. While perhaps the majority of Jewish communities were not offended, as PotW points out, there were those who did voice their vehemence against The Passion because somehow they believed this was painting a portrait of them in a negative light: they were responsible for the death of Jesus Christ. To address their unfounded arguments that the movie was anti-Semitic, I will quote their forefathers who stood outside of Pontius Pilate's embassy:

When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: you see to it. Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children. (Mt. 27:24-25)

This was not a movie about anti-Semitism. The Jews made a choice to kill Jesus. If anything, they're calling their forefathers "anti-Semitic."

Also, I'm not saying it's the Jew's fault that Jesus died, because I realize that it is the fault of every living human being, past, present and future. Because of our sin, we put Him to death on the cross.

As far as the idea that Muslims will be offended, I've learned an old proverb: You can please some of the people some of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time. It's not necessarily Lewis intent to bash Muslims, when all he does is paint a portrait of the ancient Persians/Ottomans. After all, they were a bloody people, just as much as the Assyrians, the Chaldeans, the Babylonians, the Syrians, the Greeks, the Romans, and a host of others, were.

slideyfoot said:
Its not impossible that Disney would risk widespread outrage - after all, The Passion of the Christ made money - but I think its unlikely. Nevertheless, I would be interested to see what choices a studio might make in adapting The Last Battle - I'm not a Muslim, so it wouldn't personally offend me either way, although I would be disappointed if a studio felt the Islamic audience was irrelevant. Like The Passion of the Christ, it would certainly produce a lot of free publicity.

When it comes to The Passion, I know the truth of the history is going to offend many. But when it comes to The Last Battle, if there are people who are so shallow as to take personal offense, then it's quite a shame. But it would be an outrage to allow for a liberal film adaptation of Lewis' work: perhaps the Calormenes should be men dressed in pink tutus? That certainly wouldn't offend the said audience you mention.

I am rather struck, though, by your self-contradiction, for you write:

slideyfoot said:
If a major studio can adapt The Last Battle without delivering an enormous affront to Islamic groups, then I'd love to see it.

But, almost in the same breath, you write:

slideyfoot said:
I'm not a Muslim, so it wouldn't personally offend me either way

What choice will you make? You can't be one and the other.
 
Curumo said:
Once a man dies, inkspot, he can no longer make a choice that will suddenly change the course of his future. God has given us this time, the here and now, to make our decisions.
I believe that, of course, but I was curious why Tootsila, who posted on the previous page, was saying that Emeth's coming to Aslan already in the New Narnia didn't imply that a man might come to Christ after death ...
 
Ithilien said:
Do you think the Calormenes represent the Muslims? (Assuming the Narnians are the Christians) After all, the two cultures bears certain resemblances. Who then, is Tash. As described in the novel, is Allah then the antithesis of Jesus?

I don't know if any one informed u about Allah, but I will tell u: Allah is one of the names of God....
 
Allah is the name of the Muslim God, right? But Christians or Jews would never call their God Allah, as I understand it ...
 
adibmuhammad88 said:
Hullo there.

I personally think that each religion has its own God, and each God are as different and unique from one another. So, I don't see why Waterhogboy would think that Allah is actually the Christian God.
...
hi...may be its an old topic but I agree with u about what u have written except ur ideas which is written above...I mean in fact all religions has the same God, and God is one...But by the time passes some peple changed some rules of God and that made differences between some beliefs.The other eason of some differences is the people who lived in the time the prophets lived.For example Muslims or Christians don't have the 10order(I am not sure if in English it's told like that-I know it's Turkish-, if it is wrong sorry...)while the Jewishs have...But the basic rules r nealy the same in all religions...
have a good day...
 
[Inkspot:] "Allah is the name of the Muslim God, right? But Christians or Jews would never call their God Allah, as I understand it ..."

Christian Arabs do call God "Allah," because it's the Arabic word for God. It is used in Arabic Bibles. The Aramaic word, "Elaw," is very similar. Look under "Christianity and Narnia" at the thread on "Islam." Post number 78 by Samven582 contains detailed information on the word "Allah," written by a Christian Arab.
 
Nur said:
hi...may be its an old topic but I agree with u about what u have written except ur ideas which is written above...I mean in fact all religions has the same God, and God is one...But by the time passes some peple changed some rules of God and that made differences between some beliefs.
I don't think this is so. All religions don't have the same God ... as I understand Islam, the idea of a God crucified and dead on the cross is abhorrent to them, so obviously they cannot worship the same God as Christians, as we believe Christ did indeed die on the cross. And Hindus, I think, believe God is a sort of higher consciousness or super-soul who will receive our little souls into itself (like a drop of water into the ocean) and so this is very different again from the Islamic or Christian Gods. Perhaps I misunderstood what you said?
 
Curumo said:
I am rather struck, though, by your self-contradiction, for you write:

slideyfoot said:
If a major studio can adapt The Last Battle without delivering an enormous affront to Islamic groups, then I'd love to see it.

But, almost in the same breath, you write:
slideyfoot said:
I'm not a Muslim, so it wouldn't personally offend me either way

What choice will you make? You can't be one and the other.

It's not self-contradictory at all, Curumo. Though slideyfoot would not personally be offended by a version of the film that did affront Islamic groups, he himself would prefer to see it made only if it didn't. I take his point to be that one should not offend Muslims; whether through good manners or pragmatism is beside the point. I'm inclined to agree. Mind you, I don't believe that Calormenes are Muslims at all, or at any rate no more Muslim than, say, Aladdin's wicked uncle.
 
In which case it would become much of a contradiction, since he declares it wouldn't offend him either way but then again he wouldn't want to see the film made exactly as the book was written, apparently because it then would be offensive. It is clear it concerns him and he cares about it a great deal, otherwise I do not believe he would have even bothered creating a large, long post about it. I don't know, this just appears to be a non sequitur in my opinion.

I am glad you do not believe the Calormenes are representative of Muslims. I agree. Then I think it would be most appropriate to present them exactly as the author originally intended.
 
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I don't see the problem here, Curumo. I can declare that something doesn't offend me but know very well that it will be offensive to others, and prefer that it not be done in order not to offend them, surely?

You and I know that Calormenes are not Muslims, and can advance reasoned arguments to that effect, but wouldn't it be naive to hope that everyone else will see reason or even listen to the arguments? I would very much like to see LB filmed, and I hope it will be, of course. I particularly like Emeth's declaration that it would be worth dying a thousand deaths to look even once upon the face of Tash (whom he conceives, of course, as being holy and utterly admirable, not the horrid demon he is in reality). I can well see why Aslan claimed Emeth as one of his own.
 
Calromenes

Maybe Calormenes are people that believe in power, and that is why the God they worship exists. They don't believe in faith, which is invisible. It just doesn't take a spiritual person to state that a certain religion is bad. I think there are innocent and good people in every religion. The ones that escaped to Narnia did not want to deal with the material world which depends on politics, and were hoping for something better, more iternal.
 
magic1 said:
Calormenes r not muslims...I'm muslim got questions don't hesitate just pm me... calormenes r Hindus(Hinduisme)
What on earth gives you the impression Calormenes are Hindus? This is something I have not heard before.
 
Old thread, I know, but a topic that seems to never die out even though it actually should have been cleared decades ago.

People in Narnia (the world, not the country) are not people of a certain religion in general. Narnians (now I am talking about people from the country Narnia) are not to portray "the Christians". Aslan is there, we know he is Jesus, they believe in him (some do not, that's another thing) some even know him, they know he is the son of the Great Emperor and people are lucky. Mainly because of Frank and Helen, who were from our world, they apparently know about Christianity and Christian beliefs (see Adam and Eve) but they never referred to Aslan as God. And to that I will come back later in my post.

Thinking of Calormenes as Muslims is a very stereotypical thing to do - only because their culture is very loosely based on some cultures in our world, that doesn't mean they have to follow the religion most people of those cultures in OUR world follow. Lewis apparently wanted to have another culture in his books and he obviously was fascinated by the Oriental World (think of the Turkish Delight or simply the name Aslan). So he created the Calormenes, simply children's book culture with an "Arabian Nights" flair for the excitement. Considering many Calormenes are seen as "bad" that was a clumsy thing to do from today's view, but I think CSL NEVER intended thar as racist - he just needed an enemy and there are several white villains and good Calormenes in Narnia.

If the Calormenes were meant to portray Muslims, they would not believe in or worship Tash. They would believe in the Great Emperor and consider Aslan not his son, but consider him a Prophet or (in case Lewis wouldn't use that word) at least respect him very much. If the Narnians referred to Aslan as God (which they do not) they would disagree, which might range from pity to fights, depending on the individual Calormen. The Islam is a monotheistic religion, the Calormenes believe in various gods. Also, the Calormenes are the only beings in the world of Narnia who use the term "god". The Calormenes are definitely not Muslims, there are no similarities at all. The culture and religion in that case have to be seperated.

But WHAT are they? Some people point out similarities to the old Persian religion. But how should the old Persian religion get to Narnia? Narnia was created when in our time it was teh turn of the 19th to teh 20th century, when the old Persian religion was long dead. Of course, some individuals might have somehow kept that faith, as some people claim to believe in the old Greek or Roman gods, but that's highly unlikely. Personally, I think the Calormenes are either native to the world of Narnia or they come from a completely different world - remember, there are endless worlds.
Obviously, Tash exists. He is a demon, if not the devil. The Calormenes knew about him, believed in him, worshipped him and the other demons as gods. And that's it. While the Narnians follow Aslan and with that God, the Calormenes follow Tash and with that the devil. In both cases, there are exceptions - not all Narnians choose to follow or believe in Aslan. Not all Calormenes believe in Tash, and some of those who do, think they would do something good, because they don't know who Tash really is - see Emeth.

However, the last part is just my personal idea. There are lots of other possible theories. However, the Calormenes do not portray Muslims at all and that is a fact.
 
It cracks me up when people want to minimize evil. I haven't read through most of the previous posts and I'm certainly not directing this at any one specific person...but YES, the Calormenes represent Muslims. DUH!

Prince Rabadash, for example, represents a radical Islamist.

Lewis' writings are prophetic and Narnia represents the free Western world.

Lewis lived during a very different time. Perhaps he was aware of the alliances formed between Muslims and Hitler, who both hated freedom.

The Last Battle is profound in several regards. One strikingly resonant aspect is how the friendly forest animals wake up to Calormenes among them...they're just there, among them, as might be expected. The next thing you know their scimitars are drawn and the animals are enslaved. Would that ever happen here in the free west? I don't know any Muslims who speak out against terrorism, though they claim that's not what Islam is about. As a Catholic, I speak out against someone killing a doctor who performs abortions. That is wrong. My young naive professor of Social Psychology has taught the class that there are "probably only 1,000 radical Islamists in the world and that people overreact." Wow, a lot changes in 14 years. A lot! Shift teaches the Narnians that Tash and Aslan are the same. Tirian is troubled by how a god that feasts on the blood of his people could be the same as the great lion who sacrificed his blood on the stone table. For years now in public universities, professors teach young Americans that the god of Islam is the same God of Christianity and Judaism. Well, that's certainly a matter of perspective, isn't it?

Yes, the Calormenes represent Muslims. It is interesting that they conquer Narnia only right at its end. They get what they want, but most of them don't make it through the stable door. They are left to rule a world that is now disolved.

I'm not afraid of Calormenes and I'm not gonna baby them. I'm not afraid of Muslims either.
 
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READ MY NOVEL "SOUTHWARD THE TIGERS"!

In it, I drew upon a fact of anthropology that Mister Lewis may have known. In Islamic Central Asia, there actually was a tribe or clan called KALOR! For my novel, I imagined about a hundred Kalor people finding a dimensional gateway and entering the Narnian world early in its history. To become worshippers of Tash, they do indeed have to discard belief in Allah; but they RETAIN their Islamic social customs, like the oppression of women.

Anyone who studies the ACTUAL career of the ACTUAL Muhammad will realize that a society formed around his example could very easily generate the tyranny depicted in the Calormene empire, even if changing the name of its deity.
 
Actually, CF's explanation makes some sense. Although, in this case, they cannot be called Muslims since they have most definitely abandoned that religion since entering the World of Narnia! Still, some Kalor tribesmen entering through a Door and then somehow being drawn into worshiping Tash makes sense.

However, I don't think that the Calormenes are supposed to be direct analogies of Muslims. Their culture is similar, but still pretty different.
 
I suspect Lewis envisioned pre-Muslims, if he gave it much thought at all. They were clearly modeled upon the Ottoman Turks, who were the exotic "eastern" people of his day. (To Europeans, anything east of the Bosporus is "the Orient".) I'm pretty certain he didn't consider them actual Muslims, since he knew well enough that Muslims are monotheists, but his historical knowledge would have reached back to the pre-Islam civilizations of southern Asia.
 
Lewis grew up when India was a part of the British empire. When it came to exotic locales, India was probably a popular go to for writers. He even wrote that Digory's father was in India in the beginning of MN.

The Calormene religion was polytheistic, with a multi-armed main god and with an animal head, which leads closer to the Hindu religion. The Tisroc, the leader of the Calormenes, claimed to be descendant of Tash, which resembles ancient Egyptian Pharoahs.

The title of Grand Vizier was borrowed from the Ottoman Empire and played a similar role in H&HB. It seems that the government was based on the Ottoman Empire, still alive but seriously on the decline when Lewis was growing up.

It seems as if Lewis took aspects of many Middle East and South Asian civilizations of his past and present. While Muslim extremists existed back then (the US has been dealing with or fighting them since our inception as a country), not much of Islam seems to be incorporated into the Calormenes.

As for their name, Narnia Wiki gives a reference to Tolkein regarding a mountain called Kalorme, the second tallest in the Land of the Sun.

MrBob
 
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