Harry Potter- Good or Evil (Demonic)

[NarnianWarrior]

Yea Spanish I hear where your coming from. It is these touchy topics in Harry Potter that made me make this thread.

 

[SeaStar]

I don't think Harry Potter is demonic. I don't think it's particularly Christian, either. I'm equally skeptical of the "hidden Satanist messages" and the "hidden Gospel allegory" theories.

I tend to read it in the same way I would read about superheroes or ancient mythology. Lightsabers, shooting webs out of your wrists, and turning a bird into a drinking goblet by yelling mangled Latin are all things I would never mentally associate with real life. In and of itself, I think Harry Potter (at least the magic issue) is pretty harmless.

But that's just what I took from the series; a lot depends on the individual reader. Not everyone is going to read the same book and take it the same way. The books certainly didn't turn me (or anyone else I know) to the occult, but there is the potential for a different person, with an entirely different mindset, upbringing, and situation, to do so. I'm not saying it's likely, but the potential is still there (as it is in a lot of other books, even Lord of the Rings etc., though definitely to a lesser extent.)

So yeah. I think "pretty harmless" sums it up for most people. In fact, Christians grounded in their faith are least at risk of turning to the occult by reading them.

That said, there was some stuff I disliked about the series, but it wasn't related to the witchcraft debate.

 

[Pardine]

I don't think Harry Potter is demonic. I don't think it's particularly Christian, either. I'm equally skeptical of the "hidden Satanist messages" and the "hidden Gospel allegory" theories.

The gospel allegory isn't exactly hidden. J.K. Rowling made it clear that it's in there, and that there are elements of the final book that are based on her belief in Christianity.

 

[The Spanish Inquisition]

The gospel allegory isn't exactly hidden. J.K. Rowling made it clear that it's in there, and that there are elements of the final book that are based on her belief in Christianity.

Yeah, I don't know how people miss this. The entire series is really about sacrifice....more specifically, sacrifice because of love.

The morality is not quite as black and white as Narnia, but I'd say the Christian symbolism is still there.

 

[Sir Cabbage]

Yeah, I don't know how people miss this. The entire series is really about sacrifice....more specifically, sacrifice because of love.

The morality is not quite as black and white as Narnia, but I'd say the Christian symbolism is still there.

I missed the Christian aspects to the story because such things as giving your life up for someone else, etc. aren't exclusively Christian ideas. So you could easily read it as a not particularly religion considered book - but neither is it anti, if you get what I'm saying... But again I'd say that a lot of stories contain the same kind of things, so I suppose it is a faith thing how much you read into them.

 

[NarnianWarrior]

Giving your lives for others isn't a Christian aspect??? I believe it is. "For no greater love than this; to lay down one's life for one's friend." I mean that's the thing about Harry Potter. It's what makes it the most controversial series of all time. That it has hints of occultism but at the same time it has Christian imagery.

 

[moonspinner]

I missed the Christian aspects to the story because such things as giving your life up for someone else, etc. aren't exclusively Christian ideas. So you could easily read it as a not particularly religion considered book - but neither is it anti, if you get what I'm saying... But again I'd say that a lot of stories contain the same kind of things, so I suppose it is a faith thing how much you read into them.

Exclusively is the operative word there. To reply to the argument above about The Odyssey, the quote also was that a book that does not give credit to God has a limited value, and not no value at all.

Which is what I feel about the Harry Potter books. I don't think they are demonic. From my own perspective at least, I cannot imagine reading the books and being drawn to occultism. Of course, I come from a strong Christian background and culture, so that is my own experience and understanding. On the other hand, I don't think the books have much value beyond entertainment. I don't see strong Christian allegories in the stories. I find the double standards of moral judgment that recurs insidiously throughout the series... troubling. I compare it to books like the Enid Blyton series and Chronicles of Narnia, and I find Harry Potter morally deficient.


That does not mean I do not think the books have no value or are intrinsically harmful.

 

[SunshineRose]

Exclusively is the operative word there. To reply to the argument above about The Odyssey, the quote also was that a book that does not give credit to God has a limited value, and not no value at all.

Which is what I feel about the Harry Potter books. I don't think they are demonic. From my own perspective at least, I cannot imagine reading the books and being drawn to occultism. Of course, I come from a strong Christian background and culture, so that is my own experience and understanding. On the other hand, I don't think the books have much value beyond entertainment. I don't see strong Christian allegories in the stories. I find the double standards of moral judgment that recurs insidiously throughout the series... troubling. I compare it to books like the Enid Blyton series and Chronicles of Narnia, and I find Harry Potter morally deficient.


That does not mean I do not think the books have no value or are intrinsically harmful.

Good post, moonspinner. You basically describe how I feel, and I agree that the double standards of moral judgements is one of the ideas I find most troubling about the series. I actually find the double standards in terms of morality more disturbing than the traces of occultism.

 

[inkspot]

Sorry for the long post!

It is surprising to me when Narnia Fans fault the HP series for not "giving credit to God" in some way -- when God is never mentioned in the CON, and especially because the HP series is such a clear Christian allegory. We used to have a thread about this subject a few years back when the books and films were still being released -- and I know I made an extensive list of all the Christian symbolism in HP there ... but I think the thread got locked because some people got so passionate about it that feelings got hurt!

I do still have a a lengthy thing here I wrote to my sister after reading DH because she wanted to know what it was all about (she only ever read Philosopher's Stone and none of the others). If you can read this, and still think HP to be demonic and JKR to be anything but a Christ follower ... then you are bringing something to the table with you which isn't in the books.

*** DEATHLY HALLOWS SPOILER ALERT***
OK, by the end of Deathly Hallows, Harry has discovered what happened the night his parents were killed. The power of his mother’s love which caused the killing curse to rebound against Voldemort actually fractured the evil wizard’s soul, and a tiny piece of it was implanted within Harry. Thus, as long as Harry lives, Voldemort cannot be killed. Harry comes to realize that he must allow Voldemort to kill him and not even raise a hand in his own defense. It’s the only way to make it possible for others then to defeat Voldemort because it will kill V’s escape valve of having part of his immortal soul living in Harry (although V has not yet realized he is indestructible because of this -- he had hidden little pieces of his soul in other common objects, but Harry and friends have tracked these down and destroyed them).

Harry’s school is under siege by the Death Eaters, Voldemort’s forces, and Voldemort himself is in the woods outside the school, waiting for Harry. There is this incredible scene where Harry knows he has to go and allow himself to be killed, and he is walking alone into the woods. He has in the course of the book become the recipient of the legendary “resurrection stone,” which is supposed to allow you to bring dead people back, only Harry realizes now that in fact the dead are calling to him. He uses the stone, and his mother, father, god-father and one of his friends who died that night in the fighting come to him, as if to help him cross to the other side. They walk with him and give him the courage to face Voldemort. It was such an amazing portrayal of that verse about being surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses ... I was crying my eyes out.

So he meets Voldemort who levels the killing curse at him, and Harry awakens to find himself in a heavenly Kings Cross train station, with dead Dumbledore who explains that because he voluntarily laid down his life, V’s curse only killed the small part of his own soul which had been implanted in Harry. Now Voldemort can be killed, and Harry has the choice to return to the fray or wait there and “take the train” to the next dimension as it were. Of course, he chooses to go back, and he is the one who finally vanquishes Voldemort. But the symbolism was just tremendous, and if any Christians who railed against the series would read it, I don’t see how all the metaphors can escape them. Deathly Hallows is as blatantly Christian as The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe. Harry’s mother laid down her life for him, Harry lays down his life for his friends and takes it up again — even the place where he goes after the killing curse hits him is “King’s Cross” ...

***END OF SPOILERS***

It’s just a shame Christians made such a fuss about the series to begin with, because now they really don’t have a leg to stand on. I did read where the Church of England, in England, is publishing a series of Sunday School type lessons based on Harry Potter.

And just off the top of my head, a few of the Christian symbols/allegorical things we can find in HP:

* All the rejoicing when Harry is a baby is like the angels welcome Jesus? All the magic world rejoiced when HP (as a baby) defeated Voldemort, and I thought it could be seen as a hearkening to the way the angels rejoiced (and encouraged the shepherds to rejoice) when Jesus came as a baby to defeat the devil here? You know, on that day in the HP world, the magic people were joyfully embracing the muggles, and you could see it as kind of the way the angels broke out of heaven to sing for the shepherds?

* Harry's lightning scar as a result of his battle with Voldemort could be a reference to the way Jesus said he saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven (Luke 10:18)? If lightning is associated with Satan in the Bible, maybe JKR associates this scar with a mark left by Satan’s evil touch in Voldemort?

* Harry's mother's sacrifice of herself endowing him with a deep protection from evil could be similar to how Christ's love for His children protects them (and He even sacrificed Himself for us?). Clearly, the idea of a love so strong it demands you lay down your life for the beloved is an idea that originates in the Bible (John 15:13), so that can't be discounted.

* Harry's stag patronus could be a symbol of Jesus: in medieval times St. Eustace saw the crucified Savior in the horns of a stag, and since then the stag has been among the symbols of Christ.

There's lots more, and then remember, while the books were still being released, JKR wouldn't talk much about her spirituality or spiritual theme in the stories because, she said, said if she told us her spiritual values upfront, it might spoil the story for us because we would see clearly where the saga is headed, and we know that she is a member of the Church of Scotland.

They say all good stories tell the One Good Story, right? HP retells the Christ story in just as powerful a way as CON, for my money.

 

[SeaStar]

The gospel allegory isn't exactly hidden. J.K. Rowling made it clear that it's in there, and that there are elements of the final book that are based on her belief in Christianity.

I do think there is some Christian influence in the series, which as you said is due to the author's background. I just don't think it's meant as a flat-out allegory, or comprised of 100% Christian themes. (Which is not a bad thing.)

 

[NarnianWarrior]

I agree Sea Star. The list goes on and one when it comes to Christian allegories in HP, aside from the obvious act in Deathly Halllows.

 

[inkspot]

Friday is the Feast Day of CS Lewis, a saint in the Anglican Church. It got me thinking, about patron saints, and about the patronus in HP. There is another Christian sort of allegory:

We believe in the "communion of the saints," which means all believers, dead or alive, are alive in Christ and able to pray for us. This is one reason we have "patron saints" -- fathers, for instance, can have Saint Joseph as their patron, and ask him to pray for them to be good dads.

In the HP world, a patronus protects you from dementors -- you call on your "patron" for protection, just as a Catholic might petition Peter or St Christopher for protection. Then also: patronuses in the HP world tend to be hereditary. Harry's patronus is a stag, just like his dead father's was -- and Snape's patronus is a doe, just like his dead beloved's was. Patronuses, then, can be seen as a symbol of our departed loved ones who, as saints in heaven, make intercession for us.

 

[NarnianWarrior]

Incredible point inkspot. I never even thought of that. What a wonderful allegory.

 

[Son of Adam]

The arguement by many Christians agains the Harry Potter series is that it will lead young people into witchcraft, primarily Wicca, the leading witchcraft type of its kind.

And interesting fact that Wiccans or their covens will not accept anyone into their group who wants to join them because of Harry Potter, Charmed, or any other witchy type book, movie or tv show. Their view of these films are that some give a very false perception of what Wicca/witchcraft is all about. Secondly, many of those who want to join because of these films and books believe that the type of witchcraft done in them is what Wiccans really do, and real Wiccans and witches find that to be just wrong.

The Harry Potter books and films are pure fiction, and not meant to be taken seriously in any shape, manner or form. As one or more have said already, to classify Harry Potter as something evil would mean we would have to put C.S. Lewis and J.R.R. Tolkein in the same category as the HP books and films. Just because some fantasy books are written by Christians and others not by believers doesn't make one book good and the other evil. Both have elements of magic and non-christian beings in them - dragons, wizards, fauns, witches, magic spells, etc. They also all have one characteristic - all of them have evil characters in them - the white witch, Sauron, and Voldemort with good characters doing everything they can to overcome the evil. And in all three series I have mentioned, the good always triumphs over evil.

So the choice we have to make is to decide whether they are all good or all bad because of the elements contained in all of them.

 

[NarnianWarrior]

Great comment Son of Adam. I agree. There has to be a new low level of morality for such a series to be deemed as evil in my opinion. Like you said, this series is not thing less than triumphant when is comes to the presence of good.

 

[Pardine]

Also, JK Rowling is a christian. If I had a dollar for every time I've seen Christian Conservatives try to claim she's a witch that has a coven, I'd be extremely wealthy. She's NOT a witch/wiccan/pagan/etc. She was raised Anglican and now attends the Church of Scotland (which, is presbyterian by nature.)

She has said, many, many times in interviews that she had thought about placing her religion more in centralized locations in Harry Potter, and writing about it more in the books, but she was concerned that it would foreshadow the ending.

 

[NarnianWarrior]

Your right Paradine. Since the release of the book Deathly Hallows, it seems many people have warmed up to the series. Can't judge by one part of a story!