Israel Conflict

[Grey Pilgrim]

that was true and mabye we can help establish a republic in Saudi Arabia

 

[Samwise Gamgee]

Jimi if you want to suport Palistine then that is just fine but some of us suport Israil because unlike the palstine people they are threating to blow the christain people out of the waters into the sky. So that is that.

 

[Grey Pilgrim]

i wish to honestly want to support both of them and hopefully they will live peacefully together

 

[Copperfox]

DOFFEN: When you argue that Western nations have "the same attitude," you show that you must not have closely followed the information provided in past threads about Islam. In Islamic teaching, the whole world is divided into two sections: "Dar es-Salaam" and "Dar al-Harb," meaning respectively "House of Peace" and "House of War." Anyplace where Muslims hold absolute political control is in the House of Peace; everyplace else is in the House of War. For devout Muslims, the precise and ONLY meaning of "peace" IS that Muslims are in unquestioned command.

Now, you said:

>> We all know very well that this has nothing to do with the *religion*
>> Islam. It's about freedom of speech and religion, and sorry to say,
>> Muslim countries are not as developed within this as for example the
>> U.S. If you go back in European history (100 or 200 years f.example),
>> they would not allow Mosques to be built.

It has everything to do with the religion of Islam. The two-houses concept I described IS the religion of Islam. The Christian world has LONG since repented of all efforts to suppress other faiths by force; the Muslims, because they claim to be a new and superior development beyond Christianity, have NO excuse for not having figured out freedom of speech by now.

Why do you suppose the first mosques in Europe were built? Because Muslims logically persuaded the Europeans to convert? No, they were built--or, often, churches were taken and made into mosques--because of unprovoked armed invasion and conquest of European territory. Muslims now pretend that their domination of part of Europe was tolerant; but their "tolerance" came with a price tag--the status of "dhimmi" for all Christians and Jews. It's no wonder that Europeans didn't want any more mosques for a long time. And now that Europe IS allowing mosque-building and open Islamic activity, what thanks are the European societies getting? The thanks they get consist of demands for more and more concessions, more and more favoritism to be shown to Muslims. THAT is why I say that Muslims need to learn that they don't have to be in charge everywhere.

 

[Doffen]

DOFFEN: When you argue that Western nations have "the same attitude," you show that you must not have closely followed the information provided in past threads about Islam. In Islamic teaching, the whole world is divided into two sections: "Dar es-Salaam" and "Dar al-Harb," meaning respectively "House of Peace" and "House of War." Anyplace where Muslims hold absolute political control is in the House of Peace; everyplace else is in the House of War. For devout Muslims, the precise and ONLY meaning of "peace" IS that Muslims are in unquestioned command.

... We have the EXACT same thing. We just call it "west" and the "east". What do you think of when you think "east"? ... I've watched to much television. I see a hooded muslim with a AK-47 or a rocket launcher. And I'm sure there's thousands of others who feels the same way. Where exactly is our house of war, and where is our house of peace? We are divided into two sections.

It has everything to do with the religion of Islam. The two-houses concept I described IS the religion of Islam. The Christian world has LONG since repented of all efforts to suppress other faiths by force; the Muslims, because they claim to be a new and superior development beyond Christianity, have NO excuse for not having figured out freedom of speech by now.

No excuse? Copperfox: You mix up religion and goverment! We don't migrate to the east, they migrate to us! And we both know it's because WE have better terms of living then them. MANY faithful muslims move to the west and loves it there. I believe most muslims would if they could, because they don't like their goverment. All the muslims I know (and I know quite a few) love their religion but will never move back to where they came from!

Why do you suppose the first mosques in Europe were built? Because Muslims logically persuaded the Europeans to convert? No, they were built--or, often, churches were taken and made into mosques--because of unprovoked armed invasion and conquest of European territory. Muslims now pretend that their domination of part of Europe was tolerant; but their "tolerance" came with a price tag--the status of "dhimmi" for all Christians and Jews. It's no wonder that Europeans didn't want any more mosques for a long time. And now that Europe IS allowing mosque-building and open Islamic activity, what thanks are the European societies getting? The thanks they get consist of demands for more and more concessions, more and more favoritism to be shown to Muslims. THAT is why I say that Muslims need to learn that they don't have to be in charge everywhere.

Of course Muslims should be allowed to put more demands on their mosques. THEY LIVE HERE TO! I take my own country as an example, where we build many mosques, and that's because they're BEING USED! You're making a line saying that muslims are not Europeans. Well, THEY ARE! If they're living here, they're Europeans!
When a muslim moves here, he should be shown the same respect as a christian. If there's many muslims, there should be places where they can come together and worship their God, just as there should be places where Christians can do the same.

The problem is that the GOVERMENT in those countries won't allow churches to be built. ALL the muslims I know have nothing against churchs or Christians. You know as well as me that those countries are not as well developed as our countries, and it has nothing to do with their religion. Two houndred years ago Christians fired up supposed to be witches. They either drowned or burned them. Religion is used all the time to do bad things.

 

[Lady Badger]

Learning All the Time

The problem is a little more complex than that. America was founded by people firmly grounded in the Judeo-Christianic heritage, and many Christians feel that the triumph of Israel is one of the steps that is the inevitability of history and the fulfilment of certain Biblical prophesies.

I have no doubt whatsoever that if it were not for Israel's role in prophesy that the United States would probably disengage itself or at least reduce its role to be conmensurate with what it does in other regional conflicts.

I shan't couch the Israel/Palestinian issue in terms of good and evil. However I shall point out that the Jews consider Gentiles that follow the seven Noahide Laws to be righteous people who shall be saved whereas the Muslims believe strict adherance to the Quaran and acceptance of the Shahada (Allah is the one God and Muhammad is his Prophet) is necessary. This divide of ideologies means that Israel would be more likely to administer people in a modern secular state then would the Palestinians. Except for some foreward thinking countries like Turkey, the majority of Muslim populations regard a return to the "good old days" as the imposition of Sharia (religious law) wherein a woman would never dare leave the house except in the company of a male relative and a man without a beard long enough to protrude through a clenched fist may be beaten and imprisoned until it grows sufficiently long.

Never a need to go to Encarta for history. It's all here in Narniafans. Just ask EveningStar.

 

[Copperfox]

Doffen, you are not understanding what I said about Muslims making demands. They don't just demand to HAVE their religion; they demand that the rest of us be made to accommodate it specially and preferentially. Thus we have schools in America setting up spots for Muslim students to do their mechanical scheduled prayers, when other faiths are not shown as much consideration. And a few years ago, in Florida, a Muslim woman demanded in court that she be allowed to have her face entirely hidden in her driver's license photo!!--which only makes sense if HER VEIL was going to be driving her car all by itself.

>> The problem is that the GOVERNMENT in those countries won't allow
>> churches to be built.

But in Islamist societies, Islam IS the government--the way Maugrim WAS "the police" in LWW.

>> ALL the muslims I know have nothing against churches or Christians.
>> You know as well as me that those countries are not as well developed
>> as our countries, and it has nothing to do with their religion.

It has everything to do with their religion. Look at what the Taliban did to women in Afghanistan: wouldn't let them get an education or have professional careers. This meant that fifty percent of the Afghan population was barred from making any contribution to national progress!

>> Two hundred years ago Christians fired up supposed to be witches.

For professed Christians to do this, they had to move away from what Jesus actually taught and practiced, because Christianity originated in love and kindness. Meanwhile, the many decent Muslims you and I both know are so decent because they also have moved away from something; they've moved away from the example of Muhammad, who did a whole lot more violence than was ever seen at the Salem witch trials.

 

[Doffen]

Doffen, you are not understanding what I said about Muslims making demands. They don't just demand to HAVE their religion; they demand that the rest of us be made to accommodate it specially and preferentially. Thus we have schools in America setting up spots for Muslim students to do their mechanical scheduled prayers, when other faiths are not shown as much consideration. And a few years ago, in Florida, a Muslim woman demanded in court that she be allowed to have her face entirely hidden in her driver's license photo!!--which only makes sense if HER VEIL was going to be driving her car all by itself.

>> The problem is that the GOVERNMENT in those countries won't allow
>> churches to be built.

But in Islamist societies, Islam IS the government--the way Maugrim WAS "the police" in LWW.

>> ALL the muslims I know have nothing against churches or Christians.
>> You know as well as me that those countries are not as well developed
>> as our countries, and it has nothing to do with their religion.

It has everything to do with their religion. Look at what the Taliban did to women in Afghanistan: wouldn't let them get an education or have professional careers. This meant that fifty percent of the Afghan population was barred from making any contribution to national progress!

>> Two hundred years ago Christians fired up supposed to be witches.

For professed Christians to do this, they had to move away from what Jesus actually taught and practiced, because Christianity originated in love and kindness. Meanwhile, the many decent Muslims you and I both know are so decent because they also have moved away from something; they've moved away from the example of Muhammad, who did a whole lot more violence than was ever seen at the Salem witch trials.

Look what every single religion has done through the years. As far as you may hate it, Christianity has evolved, just as Islam. Christianity is more evolved at the time. Christianity has been cruel aswell. The muslims I know have NOT moved away from the prophet Muhammed. My best friend is a well practicing muslim, and he's not stoning women.

 

[~Sunnyromance~]

I must say I agree with Doffen 100%
I learned about the witch trials and the descriptions I heard very tragic and NOT pretty and those trials were often controlled by Christians.

And yes women have been treated horribly in the name of Christianity. For one thing the witch burning and secondly the way in which females were kept down for thousands of years. Just like the Talbians didn´t allow women education, so were women often in old times in Christian countries forbidden from education, for one thing that was the case in my country.

And I don´t see anything wrong with making amandments in public school in order to let people be able to practise their religions. This is a world with many religions and we ought to respect that!

I am a Christian and I favour my God, but I know that many bad things have been done in his name by other fellow Christians and that does not make me proud

 

[Copperfox]

Doffen: Have any of your Muslim friends married nine-year-old girls? If they haven't, then there's one point already in which they have departed from the example of Muhammad, and good for them.

Sunnyromance: You need to get a better grasp of the difference between actions that are motivated by a belief system, and actions that falsely carry the system's label while directly disobeying the actual teaching. All violations of human rights practiced by those who say they are Christians (and anyone can SAY he's a Christian) are, by definition, in disobedience to the teaching of Jesus--which means that the Christian faith is NOT the cause of those wrong deeds. But there are all sorts of cruel and wicked actions that a Muslim can do and correctly say that the Koran approves of them.

Have you read any of the Koran? I have. In the Fourth Sura, it says that not only is a husband allowed to beat his wife if she is disobedient...he's even allowed to beat her if he's just worried that she MIGHT be disobedient!

It's not my opinion that the Koran says this, it's a verifiable fact.

 

[Grey Pilgrim]

well before this gets any worse all i have to say is i just hope for peace between Muslims christans and jews in the holy land and all over the world

 

[Doffen]

Doffen: Have any of your Muslim friends married nine-year-old girls? If they haven't, then there's one point already in which they have departed from the example of Muhammad, and good for them.

Muhammed never stated that to be a real Muslim you'd have to marry a nine-yearold girl, even though he did it himself. In the same way, I can say that you're not following Christ as you're not walking on the water. Completely pointless.

I'm pretty sure Muslims knows Muhammed better then you and of his teachings. My best friend has just been here for 4-5 years, completely Muslim, and he of course follows the word of his prophet. He was raised in Pakistan so please don't come and tell he doesn't know what it's like. He knows, and he loves his religion, and I have no idea why you take such a angry view on muslims. Bad experiences maybe, no idea, but you're not fair.

 

[Samwise Gamgee]

Andyou know all about Christians Doffen do you not? I will tolerate a muslim when they tolerate the chirstian population in this nation. They come over here and expect every one to be muslims and when they aren't they atomatically hate or don't like them. My friend's school all most couldn't pray in thier class room because of a musilm mum who didn't like it that her child was exsposed to christ's followers.So when they tolerate and learn to live with us since we were here first then I will learn to tolerate a muslim who came third into this country.

 

[lieke]

Have you read any of the Koran? I have. In the Fourth Sura, it says that not only is a husband allowed to beat his wife if she is disobedient...he's even allowed to beat her if he's just worried that she MIGHT be disobedient!

It's not my opinion that the Koran says this, it's a verifiable fact.

I just read the fourth Sura, could you name the verse number, please? Because i couldn't find it. (I could find that a man is 'higher' than a woman, but we also see that in the Bible, right?).

I have a few things to add:

First: i'm a christian, and i think that the Jews, the people of Israël, are the chosen ones by God. Therefore i do support them, and (as pointed out a few times) i really hope that there will be peace (at least more than there is now).
But that i support them doesn't mean that i think that everything they do is right.

Second: i do not think that all muslims are bad people/terrorists/etc. There are certain groups that are (i think everyone agrees on that), but there are lots of them who are just normal people.

Third: i have to agree with Doffen a bit. Christianity has done things 'in the name of God' that were not right. I don't agree with the Islam, and if it was up to me the religion itself wouldn't exist. But that doesn't mean that i dislike muslims as persons. And i think that, because we have freedom of religion, they should be allowed to built mosques. On the other hand i want to say the same thing about building churches in other countries. There are lots of countrys, muslim countries, that do not allow christianity/churches. That is of course most of it an issue of the government, but they should allow that too.

Fourth:

And now that Europe IS allowing mosque-building and open Islamic activity, what thanks are the European societies getting? The thanks they get consist of demands for more and more concessions, more and more favoritism to be shown to Muslims.

I do get what you mean here. We see that too: if someone says something bad about a muslim, everyone is like 'HEY, YOU!' and really mad, and if someone says something bad about a christian no one pays any attention.

I am pro-tolerance, the respect should come from both sides.

 

[Copperfox]

Lieke, my copy of the Koran is still packed away someplace after the move to Colorado; but I can assure you that the part about beating wives IS there; I've seen it in more than one translation.

Doffen, when Jesus walked on water, He was using His divine POWER, which I could never do unless He lent it to me. But when Muhammad molested a child, he was exercising the moral free will that ALL men have. And just as not all Civil War Southerners OWNED slaves, yet most of them APPROVED of slavery, so modern Muslims don't have to be molesting children themselves to be in error for admiring a man who did do so.

I have stated over and over, with great clarity, that I know there are many decent Muslims. But they have to DEPART from Muhammad's personal example to be so decent--whereas Christians have to depart from Jesus' example if they are to be wicked! That is a colossal difference.

 

[inkspot]

Hallo, let's get back on topic here. If we are discussing the Israel conflict, let's try to keep the discussion there. I think we can all concede that some Muslims are terrorists, but there are plenty who are not. That's not really relevant to this discussion. There is a thread on Islam somewhere in the archives where we can go to discuss Islam in general.

Let me ask the Christians here, are any of you familiar with "replacement theology," which says that when the Jews crucified Jesus, they broke their covenant with God, and so now the covenant is no longer with the people of Israel, but actually with, and ony with, those who follow Jesus the Messiah?

Some of the mainstream churches follow this theology, the Episcopal church does, I believe, and the Lutherans and Presbyterians. My church does not believe this; we still believe God's covenant is with the Jews, and specifically with Israel.

If anyone believes this "replacement theology," can you tell me which scriptures it is based upon? I do not find it in my reading of the Bible, and I have been wondering what Scriptures tell us that God has now rejected Israel and transferred His covenant with them to Christians.

 

[Copperfox]

I'm familiar with replacement theology. Its proponents have to dig around for justification--like the incident when Paul and Silas gave up talking to unresponsive fellow Jews and announced that they were going to concentrate on evangelizing Gentiles.

One convenient aspect of replacement theology is that it relieves you of responsibility to sympathize with the surrounded, outnumbered underdog of the Middle East, and lets you feel righteous while siding with the aggressors. ("Bad, bad Israel, picking on those poor little forty million Arabs!") This in turn reveals why belief systems DO matter in the Middle East as in all scenes of geopolitical tension.

Islam did not reach the land of Israel in Muhammad's lifetime; so Muslims had to make up the story of his supernatural "night flight" to Jerusalem in order to lay their bogus claim to that city and contradict Israel's claim. Actions come from beliefs, so beliefs matter.

 

[inkspot]

Of course I am a Christian/Zionist, but I think you are right about the way replacement theology seems to work. The mainstream denominations which embrace it seem to take public anti-Israel stances, which to me is quite odd. Even if you, as a denomination, thought for whatever reason that God had rejected Israel, why would a denomination have a stance at all as regards Israel? China would be one thing because they have this historical track record/evidence of Christians being persecuted in China, so I can see how a denomination might take a public stance condemning China ... but Israel? Christianity may not be on the A-list there, but believers are not persecuted they way they are in Muslim countries.

So, what are mainline denominations thinking when they publicly dump on Israel? How are they relating such a public stance to their mission as a church?

 

[~Sunnyromance~]

*clpas for Lieke* excellent post dear and I must say I agree with you on most points

 

[Samwise Gamgee]

GUYS! Be real! The Muslims are cruel to the women in thier cultral. The bible never never never says to hit women or to abuse let alone be cruel to them. Yes the man is the head of the house hold but God is the phead of the man and it says in 1Corth. that the woman and man should submmint to each other and love each other. It says No where in the bible that a man should be curel or unjust to his wife. Not even in the old testment so don't even say that. Jesus showed us in Matt. and Mark with the Woman and the well to be compaasonate towards the women no matter. And I will tell you this! There is no way on this earth will I ever live like those Muslim women. It would be a cold, dark day in July before I do.