Jadis and the White Witch

Euphrates said:
Briefly:

"endless days like a goddess" has nothing to do with youth. In fact, if Jadis was able to die her days would have ended and she would no longer be young because youth relies on life.

If Jadis died in LWW, Aslan would have been mistaken in MN.
Click to expand...

This is a misapplication of Aslan's words in TMN. He said that she would have endless days as a goddess, meaning to say that she would not be susceptible to diseases and to illnesses, or to ageing. He never once implied that she would or was or could ever be an actual goddess, one with equal authority as Aslan. She ate the fruit of life and could live forever. She was as susceptible to being killed as any other being was. In no way did Aslan suggest she could not die (otherwise he would never have killed her, and we would never have read that the Witch "was dead"). Oh, did I mention that Jadis died in LWW? We read that she did. :D

Glimfeather made no rumor. In speaking of LGK as being "of the same crew," he meant to say that she probably had something to do with the White Witch, or had some sort of "investment" in similar goals and/or designs as the White Witch did (i.e. her strong hatred towards Narnia). It was meant, all the same, to say that she was not the White Witch. In no way was he saying that Jadis "had a crew" or anything that could go along those lines.
 
Curumo said:
This is a misapplication of Aslan's words in TMN. He said that she would have endless days as a goddess, meaning to say that she would not be susceptible to diseases and to illnesses, or to ageing. He never once implied that she would or was or could ever be an actual goddess, one with equal authority as Aslan. She ate the fruit of life and could live forever. She was as susceptible to being killed as any other being was. In no way did Aslan suggest she could not die (otherwise he would never have killed her, and we would never have read that the Witch "was dead"). Oh, did I mention that Jadis died in LWW? We read that she did. :D

Glimfeather made no rumor. In speaking of LGK as being "of the same crew," he meant to say that she probably had something to do with the White Witch, or had some sort of "investment" in similar goals and/or designs as the White Witch did (i.e. her strong hatred towards Narnia). It was meant, all the same, to say that she was not the White Witch. In no way was he saying that Jadis "had a crew" or anything that could go along those lines.
Click to expand...

I agree on that

((muhaha you could say I'm Jadis in spirit J/K:D :p hehe I had to say something funny cause that's the way I'am))
 
I'm glad Curumo cleared that point up. I always use to think that Jadis and the Lady of the Green Kirtle were the same person. Guess I was wrong. :)
 
Curumo said:
This is a misapplication of Aslan's words in TMN.
Click to expand...
:D Misapplication :D
I'm only quoting Aslan and explaining in simple terms what that necessarily means. In fact, we see that you are adding meaning to Aslan's words:
Curumo said:
He said that she would have endless days as a goddess, meaning to say that she would not be susceptible to diseases and to illnesses, or to ageing.
Click to expand...
I'll lay it out in a deductively logical way.

1. Jadis has endless days.
2. If Jadis died, her days would end.
C. Therefore, Jadis cannot die.

I see nothing about diseases or ageing or illness in Aslan's words. I never said that Jadis was a real goddess; only that "endless days like a goddess" means that she cannot die because goddesses cannot die.

Curumo said:
In no way did Aslan suggest she could not die (otherwise he would never have killed her, and we would never have read that the Witch "was dead"). Oh, did I mention that Jadis died in LWW? We read that she did.
Click to expand...
Ok. Not only did Aslan suggest that Jadis could not die, but he explicitly stated that she could never die. If she died, her days would have ended. Aslan says that her days cannot end.

I see an account of the White Witch dying in LWW, or (at least) appearing dead to her followers. If we distinguish between Jadis and the White Witch, we can account for both the WW's death and Jadis' endless days. If the WW was only a personality of Jadis, the whole story works out.

Also, it is clear that Glimfeather is not fully informed about the Green Lady, judging by his vague and ambiguous statement.
________
Toyota 2000GT picture
 
Last edited:
I think you guys are making way more out of this than Lewis ever intended. Remember, this isn't Scripture, and Lewis was a casual and inconsistent fantasy writer (as his peers were quick to point out). When he wrote Lion, he thought that was the only Narnia story he'd ever write. The others were add-ons, and Nephew in particular was "backfill" - trying to tie up some ends as best he could. Even as it was, he left some gaping holes (e.g. how did Mr. Beaver know so much about Jadis' geneaology in Lion, that she was descended from some kind of crossbreeding of giants and the descendents of Lilith? Where would anyone learn such a thing?)

From the stories proper, it's clear that Jadis began mortal (remember, she needed special spells to put her in suspended animation in the Hall of Images in Charn.) Though she ate the apple of the garden and thus gained "immortality", this did not mean total freedom from death. Rather it was more like the immortality of Tolkien's elves - they would not sicken or die, but could be killed. When Aslan killed her on the Beruna battleground, she died. This is confirmed in Caspian at Aslan's How, when the point is brought up and not disputed - she died at Beruna. The hag suggests she can be "brought back", but the context is that of a necromantic operation much like a seance. Such things are intended to establish communications, and perhaps invoke the dead as a source of power or guidance, but not to bring the dead back to life (besides, the witch's body was long decayed.)

As far as the connection betwen Jadis and the Queen of Underworld - that's a persistent mistake traceable (from what I can see) to the fact that the same actress played them both in the BBC series, and a faulty cover blurb on one printing of the books. There is not one shred of evidence in the texts themselves that they are the same entity. Basing any such conclusion on an offhand comment by Glimfeather or the dwarfs in the cave at the end is an argument from silence: i.e. because Lewis doesn't fill in any details about a "line" of northern witches, therefore there must not be one, therefore Jadis and the Emerald Witch are the same person.

If you're looking for influence on Lewis for the creation of the Emerald Witch, particularly her serpentine form, you're better looking in Charles Williams' Place of the Lion. In the chapter Triumph of the Angelicals, Miss Wilmot gives herself over to the Elemental Power of Subtlety, which manifests in the form of a serpent. She is transformed before the eyes of the protagonist Anthony, and the description is almost identical to the description of the Emerald Witch transforming after her failure to re-enchant the Prince and the travelers. Williams was a strong influence on Lewis, and it seems to me that this is a more profitable interpretation than trying to stretch the stories to fit the hackneyed old "Jadis=Emerald Witch" argument.

I'm afraid we're all going to have to live with the fact that Lewis didn't tie down his fantasy as tightly as we wish he had. Trying to force his mythology into some sort of Procrustean bed wherein every 'i' is dotted and every 't' crossed is a recipe for frustration.
 
PoTW said:
Trying to force his mythology into some sort of Procrustean bed wherein every 'i' is dotted and every 't' crossed is a recipe for frustration.
Click to expand...
I hated my Procrustean bed -- uncomfortable, and hard to make in the morning. :)
 
PrinceOfTheWest said:
Though she ate the apple of the garden and thus gained "immortality", this did not mean total freedom from death. Rather it was more like the immortality of Tolkien's elves - they would not sicken or die, but could be killed.
Click to expand...
I don't see any of this in Lewis' writings. Applying Tolkien's idea of elvish immortality to Lewis' idea of "endless days" is a misapplication. I respect your views very much, as well as your way of supporting yourself, but I'm telling you what Lewis says and you are guessing at what he means.

PrinceOfTheWest said:
When Aslan killed her on the Beruna battleground, she died. This is confirmed in Caspian at Aslan's How, when the point is brought up and not disputed - she died at Beruna. The hag suggests she can be "brought back", but the context is that of a necromantic operation much like a seance.
Click to expand...
I think you are adding the necromantic part into the story, also. The death of Jadis is, indeed, disputed in PC when the hag says something like "who ever heard of a witch that really died?". "Brought back" doesn't necessarily mean "brought back from the dead". You can bring back someone who is alive.

PrinceOfTheWest said:
As far as the connection betwen Jadis and the Queen of Underworld - that's a persistent mistake traceable (from what I can see) to the fact that the same actress played them both in the BBC series, and a faulty cover blurb on one printing of the books. There is not one shred of evidence in the texts themselves that they are the same entity.
Click to expand...
I've heard this before, but it is mistaken. I concluded that Jadis was the Green Lady from the text alone... as have many others. If the note left at Tumnus' house in LWW had not made reference to "Jadis", I am 100% sure that the same people who reject Jadis as the Green Lady would reject Jadis as the WW. The text is clear about the identity of the WW, and not as clear about the Green Lady. But, to suggest that there is no evidence in the texts ignores many of the arguments and observation made by people like me.

If you don't want to look at the texts carefully because Lewis was inconsistent, that's fine. That could simply mean that both sides of the debate have legitimate positions. I'm fine with that. I've offered a theory as to how Jadis could have endless days and the WW could have died in LWW. I think it could make both sides happy. :)
________
buy vapor genie
 
Last edited:
I think he's pretty clear the WW is dead at the end of LWW, and the LGK is someone like her.
 
In an IGN Interview with Skandar Keynes ( :D ), Tilda Swinton says that she suggested that Jadis, as the epitemy of all evil should be like a white supremicist. And that she should be Aerian. Because in WWII, who would have been the epitemy of all evil for the Pevensies? The Nazis.
Thats why she's so light in the movie, I believe.
 
That makes sense, I never thought of that. I like the way she looks, even though it is different from what I pictured in the movies.
 
Tilda Swinton's definitely got that Master Race/Aryan thing going for her and I don't even mean that in a bad way...that fair skin, strong features, and height...enviable!! :)
 
When Jadis mentions these other worlds she destroyed other than Charn, the three worlds of Felinda, Sorlois, and Bramandin, it makes you wonder just where else she'd been. I had thought maybe these worlds she destroyed came before Charn.
 
Back
Top