"lipstick, nylons and invitations"

Well reasoned, Hermit and others!

If Mister Lewis had intended such a severe interpretation as you rightly dismiss, his flawed premise would have been something like this:

"Someone who constantly eats candy and ice cream, to the complete exclusion of nourishing foods, will inevitably suffer a decline in health. Because of this, I insist that no one must ever eat any sweet desserts at all."
 
@Copperfox @Specter the recent academic and left-liberal activist attacks on Dr Suess condemn him because "whites risked their lives to speak out and fight racism and segregation" but conveniently leave out that these whites were comparatively neither substantial nor significant in numbers.

They have only been bigged up in retrospect.

If i may quote Tom Baker era "Doctor Who": "where heroes don't exist, it is necessary to invent them".
 
I think it's worth mentioning a few things: first think back to LWW. Edmund, when in the thralls of the White Witch, is just as obsessed not only with his Turkish Delight and being a prince, but as he treks to her catsle alone he thinks of nothing but "trains, and bridges and cinemas". Those things, much like the pursuit Susan is preoccupied are not bad in and of themselves, just the unhealthy obsession to the exclusion of all else.
Further, Lewis himself said in "The Weight of Glory"
“If we consider the unblushing promises of reward and the staggering nature of the rewards promised in the Gospels, it would seem that Our Lord finds our desires not too strong, but too weak. We are half-hearted creatures, fooling about with drink and sex and ambition when infinite joy is offered us, like an ignorant child who wants to go on making mud pies in a slum because he cannot imagine what is meant by the offer of a holiday at the sea. We are far too easily pleased.”
Click to expand...

Next, it is notable that the other person who criticizes Susan is Polly, someone who was an adult through two World Wars and the Great Depression and as a result learned to do without a lot of creature comforts and luxuries as Susan seems fond of.

Finally, one must also take into account "when" Susan grew up. She was a teenager during a good chunk of WWII and as a result of rationing many of the frivolities of her youth would have been denied. We even see Edmund calling her out for trying too hard to "act like mom". Based on further research I've conducted I've learned that it wasn't uncommon for an older child like that who were forced into such an adult role and gone through such a trauma as watching the air raids on London to experience some level of wanting to regain their missing youth. Case in point: up until he fully learned what his mother went through as a Jewish child in Auschwitz, Steven Spielberg admitted that as a boy he perceived his mother as being like a "Peter Pan" type of person who never wanted to grow up, not unlike how Susan appears to be behaving.
 
That is an interesting theory Sven-El. The trauma that Susan experienced may have made more of an impression on her than Ed or Lucy because she was old enough, but not as old as Peter who might be able to understand a little better. I don't know if the trauma 100% accounts for her loss of faith, but if we go back to the thought that Susan was possibly Lewis analog, it is more probable because the war caused him the same issues.
 
~Lava~ said:
That is an interesting theory Sven-El. The trauma that Susan experienced may have made more of an impression on her than Ed or Lucy because she was old enough, but not as old as Peter who might be able to understand a little better. I don't know if the trauma 100% accounts for her loss of faith, but if we go back to the thought that Susan was possibly Lewis analog, it is more probable because the war caused him the same issues.
Click to expand...
Thank you.
And how right you are. Also, remember, Lewis himself provided shelter for evacuees during the air raids and undoubtedly saw many girls behaving not unlike Susan and Lucy wherein the elder sister assumed the matronly role over the younger at risk to her own development.

Further, one must also look at what both Edmund and Susan were desiring. With Edmund's Turkish delight, butter, nuts and sugar, the three ingredients to make Turkish Delight were heavily rationed, and as a result of the war importing the treat from Turkey would have been out of the question.

So too is it with Susan's "Lipstick, nylons, and invitations."

a single tube of lipstick would consist of wax, dyes and a metal canister, all of which were rationed and could have been put to more "practical" uses for the war, such as the wax being used for a candle, the dye for marking a drop site for an airman, or the metal canister for a bullet or an artillery shell.

The nylons could have been used for a parachute, the lining of an infantry man's helmet, or used in making his uniform, or a pair of warm socks.

The ink and paper for an invitation could have been used not only for a leaflet dropped by Allied Forces, but for printing one of the most effective tools for combating Germany's propaganda. The Axis powers would often claim over the radio that "London and Washington, DC" had fallen to break the spirits of the resistance forces and those living in occupied countries like Norway, Belgium, and France. To that end, The Allies had would often resort to dropping copies of American comic books like Superman, Batman, The Phantom, Wonder Woman, Captain America, and Captain Marvel, or the latest installment of a British serialized novel. Thus, in seeing those materials still being published it reassured them that not only were the Axis powers lying through its teeth and that the US and Great Britain hadn't fallen, but it reassured them that maybe, just maybe, help was on the way.

In fact it would not surprised me in the least if that flag raised over Iwo Jima was fashioned from some of those same rationed materials. Let's see...nylon to make the flag, dyes to color the stars and stripes, and metal to make the pole. Sounds about right to me.

Now, getting back to the topic at hand, the sacrifices they would have made through rationing were all very good, noble, and heroic sacrifices in the long run to be sure, but try telling a little boy he can't have candy or a girl she can't have a fancy new outfit, and for them it will only great a greater desire to want what they cannot have.
 
~Lava~ said:
That is an interesting theory Sven-El. The trauma that Susan experienced may have made more of an impression on her than Ed or Lucy because she was old enough, but not as old as Peter who might be able to understand a little better. I don't know if the trauma 100% accounts for her loss of faith, but if we go back to the thought that Susan was possibly Lewis analog, it is more probable because the war caused him the same issues.
Click to expand...
I do disagree with anything already mentioned, but I thought that I would add another thought.

I wonder if it is not so much a loss of faith, but that other "things" overtook her faith.

For many of us, our faith first develops in childhood. Many people (like my dad), try to live as adults relying primarily on that childhood faith. However, in order to develop spiritually, which comes out in all aspects of life, that childhood faith has grow into an adult faith. It needs to be ever growing. It cannot be stagnant.

I suspect that Susan's faith became stagnant. She is the last to see Aslan in Prince Caspian, even admitting to Lucy she wanted to believe that he was there, but could not.

So, with Susan, I believe that, like what happens to a great many people, she got her priorities mixed up. Much of what has already been mentioned contributed to the mix-up.
 
rraym said:
I do disagree with anything already mentioned, but I thought that I would add another thought.

I wonder if it is not so much a loss of faith, but that other "things" overtook her faith.

For many of us, our faith first develops in childhood. Many people (like my dad), try to live as adults relying primarily on that childhood faith. However, in order to develop spiritually, which comes out in all aspects of life, that childhood faith has grow into an adult faith. It needs to be ever growing. It cannot be stagnant.

I suspect that Susan's faith became stagnant. She is the last to see Aslan in Prince Caspian, even admitting to Lucy she wanted to believe that he was there, but could not.

So, with Susan, I believe that, like what happens to a great many people, she got her priorities mixed up. Much of what has already been mentioned contributed to the mix-up.
Click to expand...
I agree that Susan is "the seed choked by thorns" but at the time of "The Last Battle" Susan's faith was so choked by the worldly cares that it is lost. I have long asserted that I have faith that Susan's faith is able to come back. I wrote a fan fiction years ago all about it.
 
rraym said:
I do disagree with anything already mentioned, but I thought that I would add another thought.

I wonder if it is not so much a loss of faith, but that other "things" overtook her faith.

For many of us, our faith first develops in childhood. Many people (like my dad), try to live as adults relying primarily on that childhood faith. However, in order to develop spiritually, which comes out in all aspects of life, that childhood faith has grow into an adult faith. It needs to be ever growing. It cannot be stagnant.

I suspect that Susan's faith became stagnant. She is the last to see Aslan in Prince Caspian, even admitting to Lucy she wanted to believe that he was there, but could not.

So, with Susan, I believe that, like what happens to a great many people, she got her priorities mixed up. Much of what has already been mentioned contributed to the mix-up.
Click to expand...
I apologize. I started this reply incorrectly. I meant to say: I DO NOT disagree.
 
I only wish Lewis had actively sought out women to look over how he had written the girls in his Narnia books. it would have caught some difficulties apparent to even girls and women who understand that Lewis was only human.

FYI: I am intersex, not female in real llife - much of me is female but a crucial part is not. I doubt my situation would have been understood by Jack.
 
Princess Frances said:
I only wish Lewis had actively sought out women to look over how he had written the girls in his Narnia books. it would have caught some difficulties apparent to even girls and women who understand that Lewis was only human.
Click to expand...
As I stated much longer ago... how do we know that he didn't? We have zero evidence that he did not even have conversations with his wife about this. Thought today is, decidedly different than thought 70 years ago, no? I think he had. And he, when writing these books was still older than most of us here, thus had more life experience, and would have known more examples of people from his own life who probably went through the same things. We need only look at The Screwtape Letters for examples of his abilities to understand the human condition with regard to everything. And I believe your position that Jack would not understand your situation is probably untrue, but we can't know that without a time machine, or speaking to Jack in the Afterlife.
 
Specter said:
As I stated much longer ago... how do we know that he didn't? We have zero evidence that he did not even have conversations with his wife about this. Thought today is, decidedly different than thought 70 years ago, no? I think he had. And he, when writing these books was still older than most of us here, thus had more life experience, and would have known more examples of people from his own life who probably went through the same things. We need only look at The Screwtape Letters for examples of his abilities to understand the human condition with regard to everything. And I believe your position that Jack would not understand your situation is probably untrue, but we can't know that without a time machine, or speaking to Jack in the Afterlife.
Click to expand...
Agreed
 
Specter said:
As I stated much longer ago... how do we know that he didn't? We have zero evidence that he did not even have conversations with his wife about this. Thought today is, decidedly different than thought 70 years ago, no? I think he had. And he, when writing these books was still older than most of us here, thus had more life experience, and would have known more examples of people from his own life who probably went through the same things. We need only look at The Screwtape Letters for examples of his abilities to understand the human condition with regard to everything. And I believe your position that Jack would not understand your situation is probably untrue, but we can't know that without a time machine, or speaking to Jack in the Afterlife.
Click to expand...
Over the years, the perception of women has obviously changed. I would like to point out the even the perception of women about women has changed. The women that Jack may have spoken with in the 1950s would almost certainly have a different perception/expectations about women in comparison to women of the 21st century.
 
Specter said:
As I stated much longer ago... how do we know that he didn't? We have zero evidence that he did not even have conversations with his wife about this. Thought today is, decidedly different than thought 70 years ago, no? I think he had. And he, when writing these books was still older than most of us here, thus had more life experience, and would have known more examples of people from his own life who probably went through the same things. We need only look at The Screwtape Letters for examples of his abilities to understand the human condition with regard to everything. And I believe your position that Jack would not understand your situation is probably untrue, but we can't know that without a time machine, or speaking to Jack in the Afterlife.
Click to expand...

Also, not only would he have had conversations with his wife, but we are negelectinga key member of Jack's inner circle, Dorothy Sayers, the unofficial Inkling. By all accounts he valued her insight and input into his writing as much as that of Barfield, Dyson, Williams, or Tolkien. But given that she was a writer of mysteries, and the "lipstick, nylons, invitations" crowd usually end up dead in a mystery she probably wasn't bothered either.
 
How many authors contact someone of the opposite sex when trying to decide how their characters should behave? Did Rowling ask other men in her life how preteen and teen boys act when she was writing Harry Potter? I do not care if Lewis didn't talk to girls or women to decide how his female characters should act. They are all both creations and extensions of him after all.

MrBob
 
Y
Princess Frances said:
I'm sorry for getting emotional. Many guys writie women pretty badly in ways that indicate that they think women are only good for the bedroom.
Click to expand...
You are fine. Just because we disagree about one point or another doesn't mean that we do not try to look at your opinion with empathy. There is a little disconnect when debating online between the words written and the feelings of the author. No amount of emojis will fix the disconnect.
 
Back
Top