Rabadash & Queen Susan/I'm somewhat confused.

M

Minotti

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I'm somewhat confused.

I read MN 3 days ago and loved it immensly. Then I read LWW yesterday. I was wondeing while reading it why there weren't any other humans there since the king and queen from MN were human. I realise that I read the books in the chronilogical order and not release date. Then today I started reading HHB and now i'm even more confused. Why in the South there are towns and villages of humans.
Also I was wondering if I should read PC and put HHB down until I finish that.
 
Frank and Helen were the first King and Queen of Narnia. Their children moved to Calormen and founded that colony. Outlaws from Calormen founded Telmar. The people of Telmar are turned to dumb beasts because of their decadence. Somewhere in between then and the time of Jadis the humans in Narnia die out, perhaps because of Jadis? Humans in Calormen do not. Humans also live in the various islands in the sea while Jadis is in power.
 
I'm not sure that's exactly right.

King Frank and Queen Helen come at the beginning. Their first son (child?) becomes the next ruler of Narnia, and their second child, who was definitely a son, becomes the first King of Archenland. The royal family of Archenland is probably the only family of humans there just as the various royal families of Narnia were the only humans there.

Men in Calormen may have come from the southern line, the Kings of Archenland, but I find it more likely that they were standard humans created at the beginning of Narnia just like the rest of the Beasts, and were of Narnia and not of Earth. This meshes with the Calormenes being more imperfect and prone to evil than the high and noble humans of Narnia and Archenland; they did not need any sort of belief to reach Narnia as they were there from the beginning.

The Telmarines were the result of shipwrecked men from Earth wandering into a cave and beign transported to Telmar, where they first established a kingdom. This fits with the notion above that it isn't only humans, but rather only Earth humans who can rule Narnia - Frank and Helen's line, the Pevensies, and Caspian and his descendants were all from Earth or descended from humans from Earth.
 
only a son of adam or a daughter of eve can rule Narnia. They cannot have intermarried or the bloodline is impure. That's why the kings and queens tend to come from other worlds. We can't exactly marry a faun in our world.
 
Calormen is decended from a colony of outlaws from Archenland. Telmar was originally colonized by Calormens, but they were turned into beasts because they "behaved very wickedly." The pirates would almost certainly have settled in whatever was left of this colony about 100 years later.

Calormen is a completely human city-state. They don't treat the land and animals with the respect that they get in Narnia and Archenland.
Archenland is practically part of Narnia. Its rulers are human and while there are more humans about, they have the same level of respect for nature as Narnia does.
It's always implied in the books that Narnia itself has very little in the way of human inhabitants, although they do have some by the time of Caspian because we know there's a town where the Battle of Beruna took place (that's the one at the end of LWW), and some of the decendents of those original pirates do choose to stay living in Narnia.

And in THHB, Susan is thinking of being engaged to some Calormen guy, so we know that there's no rule (other than the fact that he turns out not to be so nice after all) stopping that sort of thing.
 
mtdman said:
Frank and Helen were the first King and Queen of Narnia. Their children moved to Calormen and founded that colony. Outlaws from Calormen founded Telmar. The people of Telmar are turned to dumb beasts because of their decadence. Somewhere in between then and the time of Jadis the humans in Narnia die out, perhaps because of Jadis? Humans in Calormen do not. Humans also live in the various islands in the sea while Jadis is in power.
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I've only seen one source that holds that the people of Calormen descended from Archenlanders, and that source is suspect. My opinion is that the people of Calormen originated in some pre-Muslim middle asian state, and got into the Narnian world somehow to found the Calormene empire. I have no support from the texts for that, other than the clearly oriental culture and distinctive race - things that would have been impossible to evolve in the limited span of the supposed timeline.

In Nephew, it's recorded that the sons and daughters of King Frank and Queen Helen married wood gods and river nymphs to produce legitimate offspring, so that's where they came from. There's no record of humans being "native" to Narnia, so any that were there had to have come from our world somehow.
 
I always thought they were a part of the telmarines who were pirates in our world. Just a split from them. Didn't King Gale, ninth in descent from King Frank take over Archenland or one of his sons?
 
LOL -- this is why Tolkien looked down on Lewis/Narnia so much! Tolkien would have written an entire history of Calormene and Archenland (The Calorillion) to explain it all. I think PoTW comes closest to the truth: some Persians got in the same way the pirate Telmarines did, and they became Calormenes. May they live forever.
 
PrinceOfTheWest said:
I have no support from the texts for that, other than the clearly oriental culture and distinctive race - things that would have been impossible to evolve in the limited span of the supposed timeline.
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I don't think Lewis was very interested in whether it was possible to evolve those traits over the timespan that Narnia existed in. Bear in mind it was a fantasy world, and a fantasy world for children. As a child I can't say that I ever had qualms about the fact that there was an entire state of people living outside Narnia during the reign of the White Witch. She was a Witch, she probably had no problem making sure those people didn't ruin her plans.

The thing with these sorts of fantasies is that after a while people really do start believing in them, and then we start treating them as if they were real. It doesn't matter where the Calormens came from or why they were there, because it's a story. You have to remember sometimes that maybe the author didn't invest as much time and energy into analysing it as you are.
 
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Jacksie said:
I don't think Lewis was very interested in whether it was possible to evolve those traits over the timespan that Narnia existed in.
The thing with these sorts of fantasies is that after a while people really do start believing in them, and then we start treating them as if they were real. It doesn't matter where the Calormens came from or why they were there, because it's a story. You have to remember sometimes that maybe the author didn't invest as much time and energy into analysing it as you are.
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You're absolutely right. Isn't this why Tolkien was annoyed with Lewis's writing style? Not in a hostile way, but more because Tolkien went into a huge amount of detail, working out histories, languages, correct phases of the moon etc; while Lewis just whacked together a world in his holidays. Beavers with sewing machines? Animals without opposable thumbs leaving notes? Feasts in a 100 year winter?

I say just enjoy the fantasy!
 
NiceOrc said:
You're absolutely right. Isn't this why Tolkien was annoyed with Lewis's writing style? Not in a hostile way, but more because Tolkien went into a huge amount of detail, working out histories, languages, correct phases of the moon etc; while Lewis just whacked together a world in his holidays. Beavers with sewing machines? Animals without opposable thumbs leaving notes? Feasts in a 100 year winter?

I say just enjoy the fantasy!
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Here here!! I completely agree. While I love this series it is fiction and sometimes because we love it so much we tend to forget that. Who cares? What matters is that we have this lovely set of books and a wonderful story we all enjoy.
 
Rabadash and Queen Susan.....

Umm... I'm assuming the Tisroc is almost like a Sultan-esque character of Calormen, and Rabadash is the future heir right? What I don't get is why does he honestly think he can get Susan as his wife, when he totally insults her and tries to take her and King Edmund, Tumnus, etc as his prisoners!

That's... oh, gee, I don't know: obsessive and weird! :D Then again.. who said Rabadash was sane to begin with.... I mean, Queen Lucy, King Edmund, and King Lune totally own him in the battle of Anvard anyways.

So, Rabadash.... obsessive nut or what?
 
Gondor Knight of Narnia said:
Yep, not to mention he was obnoxious,power hungry and stubborn. :D
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and you arent???:D;):p

yeah he was definatly possesive....just remember that the culture that Rabadash grew up in the men always got their way, no matter what, so he didnt really care what Susan said, he figgured he would get his way no matter what! so thats probably why he thought he could insult her and still expect marriage, women had practically nooo voice!!
 
You should bear in mind that when Rabadash first visited Narnia he was the very model of decorum and chivalry, and conducted himself very well on the tournament field - we know that, despite his faults, he was no slouch as a warrior - and at least to begin with Susan found him quite attractive.

And yes, once he gets them to Tashbaan and finds things don't seem to be going all his own way, he figures he can get what he wants by force. Once Susan was safely shut up in his harem, it's unlikely that Narnia could have got her out again (so far as Rabadash knew, at any rate; Narnians backed by faith in Aslan are dangerous to underestimate). And if he couldn't manage a love match in the end, he'd settle for a trophy wife - and after the first few years, who knows but what Susan might have come to accept the situation? Stranger things have happened.
 
rabadash behaved the same wasy all powerful young men do when they don't get want they want..stamped his feet and shook his fist..the adult version of lying on the floor of a supermarket and screaming (anyone else ever do that as a toddler?!)

Oh the arraogance of youth. He did learn his lesson though, eventually. Often it seems to take a little humiliation to make a selfcentered ass (geddit!!) learn his true place.
 
Malacandra said:
You should bear in mind that when Rabadash first visited Narnia he was the very model of decorum and chivalry, and conducted himself very well on the tournament field - we know that, despite his faults, he was no slouch as a warrior - and at least to begin with Susan found him quite attractive.
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I think this is one of Lewis' comments on the difference between "manners" and true courtesy. Rabadash put on a show of manners, as one might put on a tuxedo, as a means to an end (Susan). But this was an affectation - it did not reflect who Rabadash truly was. At the Cair, he was eyeing his surroundings and adjusting his behaviour to suit what he (correctly) judged people were expecting to see. Being truly courteous, the Narnians took him at face value. Almost certainly Susan was flattered at being paid court by the crown prince of the most militarily powerful empire in the Narnian world.

I wonder what Peter and Edmund thought about this venture to Tashbaan? Hmm - I sense a one-pager coming on...
 
I should imagine they viewed it with some suspicion, but after all, there had been no animosity between Narnia and Calormen for a mighty long time (since, as we know, the Tisroc and presumably his fathers before him had known very well that there was a dangerous sorceress on the loose there, and the whole country was a sub-Arctic wasteland not worth conquering), and any overture from the mightiest country in the known world was worth taking seriously. And indeed it seems as though Susan found Rabadash's overtures by no means hateful, and by this time in their lives they had to be giving meaningful consideration to the possibilty of a diplomatic marriage for one or both of their sisters. Naturally they hadn't grown up with the notion, but then they hadn't grown up with the notion of being warrior kings over a nation of fabulous talking animals either.
 
Yeah Malacandra, I think you are right, it would be to Narnia's advantage to have Calmorenes on their side...and so Rabadash was probably not suspicious. Also the children were still children, yes they knew that people were no always as they seem, but they had not been growing up with that, people betraying them, (except Ed, but he came around).
 
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