Susan Is A Downer

I've always seen Susan as someone who fears change--she doesn't want to stay in Narnia in LWW, or leave it, or return....I get the feeling that she throws herself into wherever she is but that it takes her rather longer than the others. She's the logical, practical one, as well (not to mention being the Susan/Ann/Jane character in the books, which is to say the Responsible Older Sister who is a bit of a wet blanket and tries to be like mother), which tends to put her at a disadvantage sometimes. I think she may also be less able to focus on the adventure ahead--remember when they come back in PC and find the chess piece, and Susan almost starts to cry? Everyone else is going, "Oh wait this must be Cair Paravel let us consider the mystery!" but Susan is remembering the people they've lost.

I don't blame her at all for considering Rabadash; the queen of a small country should probably not insult the heir to a much larger one by refusing to even consider him, and Rabadash was apparently much nicer at Cair Paravel [which makes sense; he's a smart man--he comes up with the whole plan to take Archenland and Susan in a couple hours]. And she was probably thinking, too, of an heir to the Narnian throne.

I tend to think that her "While it lasts" line in the movie is a withdrawal from Narnia before she can be hurt again--she's going to lose Narnia and she knows it. (There are people who interpret her actions in LB to this.)
 
honestly, i really don't like Susan, both in book and movie,
because she is just so boring and cautious, and it made the adventures with her a bit complicated, and it also makes me angry.
and as for Susan's line: "while it lasts." i think it is very much like a foreshadowing or a hint of Susan's fate in the end. it makes sense for the scriptwriters to put that up because, aside for her getting hurt once she is withdrawn from Narnia, it also acts as a warning sign that Susan is likely to lose faith in Narnia and in Aslan, so that moviegoers who are not familiar with the chronicles wouldn't be suddenly shocked or confused of Susan's decision later on.
 
It's so sad seeing how many people hate Susan! O_O She's my favourite character in the films and books, as I said before. But she's a TEENAGE GIRL! I can understand where she's coming from when she's "not believing" or whatever. It's the nature of a teenage girl not to believe in faeries and magic and things like that.

And in my opinion, the characters are much better in the films than the books, where they're incredibly flat and generally uninteresting and bland.
 
i didn't think susan was a downer through the whole thinng LWW. i barely noticed in prince caspian!

but now you've got me thinking! :p
 
"But she's a TEENAGE GIRL! I can understand where she's coming from when she's "not believing" or whatever. It's the nature of a teenage girl not to believe in faeries and magic and things like that."

QueenSusan, I got to thinking about that statement and have made a topic in the book section (general, not a specific book) relating this to what Lewis wrote in his dedication. That really got me thinking. The link to my discussion is below:

Susan's fate and the LWW dedication

MrBob
 
QueenSusanofNarnia said:
It's so sad seeing how many people hate Susan! O_O She's my favourite character in the films and books, as I said before. But she's a TEENAGE GIRL! I can understand where she's coming from when she's "not believing" or whatever. It's the nature of a teenage girl not to believe in faeries and magic and things like that.

And in my opinion, the characters are much better in the films than the books, where they're incredibly flat and generally uninteresting and bland.
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Well, one thing is to "believe" in something you haven't seen here on earth, the other thing is to actually trust in what you're experience is. Not believing because she was a teenager is no excuse. Not all teens are like that. She flat out showed her lack of faith. She didn't HAVE to believe, she was there already!
 
BarbarianKing said:
Well, one thing is to "believe" in something you haven't seen here on earth, the other thing is to actually trust in what you're experience is. Not believing because she was a teenager is no excuse. Not all teens are like that. She flat out showed her lack of faith. She didn't HAVE to believe, she was there already!
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We-ell...I know plenty of people who were convinced as kids that they'd had some sort of "magical" experience (seeing Santa's sleight/the Easter bunny/fairies/something magical/whatever) but who realized as they grew up that that memory doesn't mean much, necessarily.

There's also some evidence that their memories of Narnia might have dimmed; it's difficult to believe dream-like memories, you know?
 
Susan was not a little kid when she first went to Narnia; she had already reached the age that most people will start realizing that maybe they never did see Santa's Sleigh (though Susan definitely did when she was in Narnia). I am not sure exactly when a female of the 1940's first went to boarding school in England, but I doubt that it was before the age of 10. We know that Ed had already been in boarding school for a while at least and that Lucy went the year after LWW. We also know that Susan was older than both Lucy and Ed.

I think there is a difference between Susan and what would be a typical teenage female now; there is no comparison.
 
~Lava~ said:
Susan was not a little kid when she first went to Narnia; she had already reached the age that most people will start realizing that maybe they never did see Santa's Sleigh (though Susan definitely did when she was in Narnia). I am not sure exactly when a female of the 1940's first went to boarding school in England, but I doubt that it was before the age of 10. We know that Ed had already been in boarding school for a while at least and that Lucy went the year after LWW. We also know that Susan was older than both Lucy and Ed.

I think there is a difference between Susan and what would be a typical teenage female now; there is no comparison.
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How does that help? That puts Narnia squarely in the age when she's growing out of magic but still wants to believe--it almost makes it worse. And the issue is compounded if she's surrounded by reasons not to let herself remember, and I think it's probably fair to say that was the case: Susan was the only one alone after LWW (the boys were at school together and Lucy would have stayed with the Professor), and she's always been the most sensitive one, the most likely to look back at what they have lost or will lose instead of toward the adventure (she doesn't want to stay in LWW for the danger--she doesn't want to leave her country in LWW--she's the only one in PC remembering the people who've died instead of trying to figure out the adventure); add to that that remembering Narnia must have been confusing (because a young girl cannot remember everything a woman can and still pass for normal) and difficult (imagine thinking that you've lost your home, all your friends, your god, *and* that you've deserted your country, possibly without an heir!), and...I just can't blame her. If someone uprooted me right now from my home and world and life and placed me back into the body of my eight-year-old self (only, I dunno, somehow changed that life--made it so I didn't move, maybe?) I don't know what I would do.

/ramble. I just can't find it in my heart to blame her for trying to be happy, especially since we don't even know what she thought--we just get Jill's and Polly's accounts.

(I think the comparison to a modern-day teenager is a decent one, actually; there's not that much difference.)
 
I think Susan got sad after all... that's why she stop believing in Narnia so she didn't got hurt, Imagine yourself had lived in a wonderfull country and later said that u can't go back anymore... I just can imagine when Lucy and Edmund came back from Narnia to their home and told Susan and Peter they had been in Narnia, I think that that could hit her a lot.
 
BarbarianKing said:
Well, one thing is to "believe" in something you haven't seen here on earth, the other thing is to actually trust in what you're experience is. Not believing because she was a teenager is no excuse. Not all teens are like that. She flat out showed her lack of faith. She didn't HAVE to believe, she was there already!
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Hm. I see your point.
Perhaps, then, she was so consumed by growing up that she pretended to lose faith in Narnia, or tried to forget it. It makes sense.
 
I was sad when I read that Susan had lost faith and she was no longer a friend of Narnia. I really was. But you have to understand that people (everyone) make choices. No one is forced to do one thing or another. Susan made the choice not to believe and trust in Aslan anymore.
 
what a great thread!
well, susan was a teenager and i think her mind was different comparing with lucy. in the film, her 'sadness' isn't caused because her, but because she was confused or afraid. i fell so sorry for she didn't comeback to narnia..! :p
 
QueenSusanofNarnia said:
Perhaps, then, she was so consumed by growing up that she pretended to lose faith in Narnia, or tried to forget it. It makes sense.
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BarbarianKing said:
Susan made the choice not to believe and trust in Aslan anymore.
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Well, technically I think QueenSusanofNarnia is right--she may still have believed. The lines from the book are:

"My sister Susan," answered Peter shortly and gravely, "is no longer a friend of Narnia."
"Yes," said Eustace, "and whenever you've tried to get her to come and talk about Narnia or do anything about Narnia, she says, `What wonderful memories you have! Fancy your still thinking about all those funny games we used to play when we were children.'"
"Oh Susan!" said Jill. "She's interested in nothing nowadays except nylons and lipstick and invitations. She always was a jolly sight too keen on being grown-up."
"Grown-up, indeed," said the Lady Polly. "I wish she would grow up. She wasted all her school time wanting to be the age she is now, and she'll waste all the rest of her life trying to stay that age. Her whole idea is to race on to the silliest time of one's life as quick as she can and then stop there as long as she can."
"Well, don't let's talk about that now," said Peter. "Look! Here are lovely fruit-trees. Let us taste them."

That doesn't actually tell us enough to conclude Susan's thoughts. Does "not a friend to Narnia" refer to her memory, or to her refusal to come? How seriously can we take the talk about nylons and lipstick, coming as it does from a tomboy some four or five years younger than Susan (and how well does Jill even know her?)? Does she laugh Narnia off to her siblings or only to her cousin and Jill? And where is Polly getting that idea from--how well does she even know Susan? Does Peter change the subject because it's too painful, or because it's not quite true/fair, or because it's disrespectful, or because he really wants to eat that fruit? I think it's very much left open to interpretation--and it's difficult to drag anything about Aslan in because we don't know whether she was going to church either.

[There's also the fact that Susan is the only one who obeys Aslan in the end about the rings--what part of "As soon as you can, take from this Uncle of yours his magic rings and bury them so that no one can use them again" is unclear, Friends of Narnia? That, combined with Aslan's command to find him in their own world, makes me curious about just how well the rest of them were doing.]
 
Animus Wyrmis said:
Well, technically I think QueenSusanofNarnia is right--she may still have believed. The lines from the book are:

"My sister Susan," answered Peter shortly and gravely, "is no longer a friend of Narnia."
"Yes," said Eustace, "and whenever you've tried to get her to come and talk about Narnia or do anything about Narnia, she says, `What wonderful memories you have! Fancy your still thinking about all those funny games we used to play when we were children.'"
"Oh Susan!" said Jill. "She's interested in nothing nowadays except nylons and lipstick and invitations. She always was a jolly sight too keen on being grown-up."
"Grown-up, indeed," said the Lady Polly. "I wish she would grow up. She wasted all her school time wanting to be the age she is now, and she'll waste all the rest of her life trying to stay that age. Her whole idea is to race on to the silliest time of one's life as quick as she can and then stop there as long as she can."
"Well, don't let's talk about that now," said Peter. "Look! Here are lovely fruit-trees. Let us taste them."

That doesn't actually tell us enough to conclude Susan's thoughts. Does "not a friend to Narnia" refer to her memory, or to her refusal to come? How seriously can we take the talk about nylons and lipstick, coming as it does from a tomboy some four or five years younger than Susan (and how well does Jill even know her?)? Does she laugh Narnia off to her siblings or only to her cousin and Jill? And where is Polly getting that idea from--how well does she even know Susan? Does Peter change the subject because it's too painful, or because it's not quite true/fair, or because it's disrespectful, or because he really wants to eat that fruit? I think it's very much left open to interpretation--and it's difficult to drag anything about Aslan in because we don't know whether she was going to church either.

[There's also the fact that Susan is the only one who obeys Aslan in the end about the rings--what part of "As soon as you can, take from this Uncle of yours his magic rings and bury them so that no one can use them again" is unclear, Friends of Narnia? That, combined with Aslan's command to find him in their own world, makes me curious about just how well the rest of them were doing.]
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Concurism. ;)
 
"Does "not a friend to Narnia" refer to her memory, or to her refusal to come?"

Animus, I took the "not a friend" comment to be that she refuses to talk about her experiences and her insistence that Narnia was just a childhood game.

"How seriously can we take the talk about nylons and lipstick, coming as it does from a tomboy some four or five years younger than Susan (and how well does Jill even know her?)?"

I don't question what is written in the book in this regard. No one contradicts Jill or Polly so there must be some veracity in it. The nylons and lipstick comment seems to be more about her over indulgence in her own vanity for the purpose of socialization rather than focusing on her spirituality.

As for how well Jill or Polly know Susan, that is hard to tell. We don't know when they first started to meet and whether Jill knew her before she got too far down the path of dismissing Narnia. I would imagine that Polly would have met them later than Jill. At the least, we can assume that they have met Susan on more than one occasion for them to have such first-hand knowledge of Susan but again, whether that was before or after Susan really started to dismiss Narnia is impossible to know.

"Does Peter change the subject because it's too painful, or because it's not quite true/fair, or because it's disrespectful, or because he really wants to eat that fruit?"

He may have changed the subject for a number of reasons including that it was a hard subject to discuss because it was true, but also the idea that it just wasn't an appropriate time to discuss it. The rest of the Friends had just met Tirian. Your first meeting with someone is not the right time to air dirty laundry or speak badly about someone else. Your first meeting should preferably be positive.

MrBob
 
MrBob said:
Animus, I took the "not a friend" comment to be that she refuses to talk about her experiences and her insistence that Narnia was just a childhood game.
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That's definitely one way to think about it, but it's not specified.

MrBob said:
I don't question what is written in the book in this regard. No one contradicts Jill or Polly so there must be some veracity in it. The nylons and lipstick comment seems to be more about her over indulgence in her own vanity for the purpose of socialization rather than focusing on her spirituality.
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It seems to be, yes. But what I'm seeing here are two younger children who we cannot even be sure ever knew Susan particularly well passing judgment about what she liked to wear, and a woman who we don't know ever even met Susan talking about how silly she is, while her younger siblings stay silent and her older brother changes the subject. It actually sounds a lot to me like this may be an argument they've had before, with the non-Pevensies convinced Susan is stupid and shallow and her siblings not agreeing but not knowing how to convince them otherwise. ::shrugs:: The problem is that this is just not enough to draw any conclusions about what Susan was really up to.

MrBob said:
We don't know when they first started to meet and whether Jill knew her before she got too far down the path of dismissing Narnia. I would imagine that Polly would have met them later than Jill. At the least, we can assume that they have met Susan on more than one occasion for them to have such first-hand knowledge of Susan but again, whether that was before or after Susan really started to dismiss Narnia is impossible to know.
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We don't even know if it is based on firsthand knowledge, or if this is based on a casual acquaintance (can't you picture Susan breezing through the Pevensie home and Jill going "What's that?" "That's Susan," Eustace explains, "she never comes to these things, there's always a party") or even what the others have said.

I mean, there are a hundred thousand ways to take each of their statements (and the silences from Lucy, Edmund, and the Professor), and that in turn leads to a hundred ways to take Susan's absence. I am very hesitant about equating belief in Narnia with belief in Christ, because they are two very different things and we have no way of knowing how any of them felt about Christianity. I do find it curious, given "take from this Uncle of yours his magic rings and bury them so that no one can use them again" and "Indeed, don't try to get there at all... And don't talk too much about it even among yourselves" and "you must begin to come close to your own world now"* that Susan is the only one of the kids who seems to follow all these--it's possible, I suppose, that the practical Susan was trying to get her family out of Narnia, and couldn't figure out how.

*How does the Professor know any of this anyway? He only went in the once!
 
I never really thought about how they really are disobeying Aslan's commands...which is fascinating. It surprises me that Susan - the character we all see as being "wrong" - really did follow the edicts set down for them.
 
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