The Last Battle vs. Other Works of "Apocalyptic Fiction"

[Narborg]

To long to be united with Christ I can understand, for that's my dream too.

But too long for the end of the world smacks of bitterness to me ... as if you're saying, "This world was a bad idea and good riddance!"

Surely there is joy in this world which deserves it's time to be ...?

I think I agree with inkspot. Yes, there is a lot which is wrong with the world today, but there is also a lot of goodness and beauty in the world. My understanding of God and the end times is that God is not about destroying the world, but redeeming it. Yet, he is working to destroy evil, but not by also destroying good. Romans 8 talks about creation groaning in anticipation of its liberation from bondage. This is what I am looking forward to: the day when all will again be as it should be.

 

[moonspinner]

To long to be united with Christ I can understand, for that's my dream too.

But too long for the end of the world smacks of bitterness to me ... as if you're saying, "This world was a bad idea and good riddance!"

Surely there is joy in this world which deserves it's time to be ...?

Joy? For whom? One thing my tour of duty in DRC taught me is that for a lot of people in this world: this life is literally Hell on Earth. I have seen the graveyards of little children whose hands were amputated as payment for short-falling King Leopold’s gold when Belgium was raping Congo and the rest of the world looked away. I have seen recovered child soldiers whose eyes are older than time and those are the ‘saved’ ones. I have seen women who have suffered such brutality that I still have nightmares over it.

Some of those people still had so much hope that it put me to shame. But most were bitter – bitter at life, bitter at the hand that Fate dealt them, born in circumstances that they had no control over. I’m not quite there yet – bitter – I don’t have the right to feel the bitterness that they do. Nor am I saying that the world is a 'bad idea' because I believe in God even when there is so much in life that puzzles me. But don’t expect me to shed tears when the world comes to an end. Because for a lot of people in it, it would be a celebration.

 

[PrinceOfTheWest]

It's true that many of us in the safe, comfortable, affluent West have a very distorted view of what life is and should be like. We go to sleep and don't really expect the door to be burst down in the middle of the night by thieves or rebels or even the police. We send our children to school and expect them to come home, not be rounded up there, packed into vans, and taken to another country to be sold into a life of slavery.

Yet, for all that, beauty and love endure. I hear missionaries coming back from places like Haiti who speak of children who live in cardboard shacks with mud floors, who consider it a lucky day if they get a meal - and who still radiate joy and happiness. I personally know a priest in East Africa who lost all the males in his family of his generation to persecution, whose seminary was literally attacked by machine-gun wielding rebels who kidnapped some of his seminarians to force them to join the rebel army. Yet he is a many of humble joy, whose messages are filled with praise and thanks to God for the many blessings he has received.

For me, I would be glad if the Lord would return tomorrow. It's true that there is beauty amid the pain, and joy amid the sorrow, but any good of this world is but a shadow and echo of the fullness we shall know in the age to come. That's one thing Last Battle taught me - it's silly to wish for this world and age to continue because of the good that is here. Any good here is only good because it reflects the good of what is to come. The beauty of this frail world is only there because it is a reflection of the True Good that will be.

 

[inkspot]

That's the Catch 22 isn't it? Of course we long for the world to come, the new heavens and new earth -- because in the presence of Christ we'll find ultimate fulfillment.

But if we focus on how much better that time will be -- and how we can't wait for this wicked world to end! -- doesn't it presume that we know what's best, and the sooner this world ends the better?

I think God pronounced this world good, knowing that it would be corrupted, that it would demand the sacrifice of His Son, that evil people would torture and kill innocent people ... yet somehow, He still found it good and set it in motion and gave us our home.

If He called it good, who are we to call it evil and long for its destruction?

 

[Sven-El]

Exactly. I believe when it comes to the end of things we can fall into the same trap that CS Lewis warned us about concerning angels and demons. One is to have an unhealthy interest in it. The other is to disbelieve it entirely.

Another thing to consider is this. In the Last Battle, when the Pevensies look around Aslan's kingdom, they see of all places The Professors old house. Let us consider for a moment, that house. They were sent there for safety as their home was being blown to the ground during the Air Raids in WWII. Winston Churchill even called those raids England's Darkest Hour. We get a small sample of that in the first LWW film, of the fear and terror they must have felt. Also add to it the sadness of being separated from their parents, fearing they may never see them again.

Yet some how the house of the professor, a place from a very dark chapter in their lives, is present in Narnia. Why would that be? I think that it symbolizes that even in the darkest times in our life there is still going to be some thing beuatiful.

Moving back to an earlier topic, it was mentioned that in the end of the book, most of the characters die in a train crash. Yes, we see Narnia end, but Lewis also establishes a very important and cardinal rule, the end can come at any moment. It doesn't have to be the clouds rolling open, Jesus comes down with fire and brimstone raining down on the streets as a mom runs for cover and abandons her baby, it can be something like a train crash.

 

[moonspinner]

But if we focus on how much better that time will be -- and how we can't wait for this wicked world to end! -- doesn't it presume that we know what's best, and the sooner this world ends the better?

I don't think it presumes. The apostles believed that the Second Coming will happen in their lifetime and they tried as much as they could to spread the Gospel. Heaven will be better than Earth: that's a fact, not a presumption.

If He called it good, who are we to call it evil and long for its destruction?

This might be a question of different doctrines and denominational traditions. Some hold that Heaven will be literally a "better and improved" Earth. Like Sven-El says, in the Last Battle, C. S. Lewis imagined that Heaven will reflect things on Earth that are beautiful. That's one idea. Some hold that Heaven is something completely different, "no eyes have seen, no ears have heard..." something that is beyond human imagination.

Similarly, whether God himself sees the World (as it presently is, and not the Paradise that He intended it to be before the Fall) as good is also a question of doctrine. He tried to destroy the world before, via Flood; and there are many passages in the Bible where Our Lord emphasizes that there is a conflict between what comes from him and what comes from the [corrupted] world that can not be reconciled. 1 Jn 2:16. There is a doctine in certain denominations that the three sources of temptation are: the World, the Flesh and the Devil. i.e. The World is not presented as a positive force. It isn't a universal Christian doctrine (like Jesus being the Son of God and dying for our sins) that God regards the present, fallen world as good and that all Christians should. And when I consider the experience of billions of human beings over the generations of life - people for whom the world is anything but "good" - it would be presumptuous of me to declare that anyone should hold to this belief. At best the world gives us the opportunity to draw nearer to God in our lifetimes.

We go to sleep and don't really expect the door to be burst down in the middle of the night by thieves or rebels or even the police. We send our children to school and expect them to come home, not be rounded up there, packed into vans, and taken to another country to be sold into a life of slavery.

Or turned into child soldiers or raped or used in rituals.

Yet, for all that, beauty and love endure. I hear missionaries coming back from places like Haiti who speak of children who live in cardboard shacks with mud floors, who consider it a lucky day if they get a meal - and who still radiate joy and happiness. I personally know a priest in East Africa who lost all the males in his family of his generation to persecution, whose seminary was literally attacked by machine-gun wielding rebels who kidnapped some of his seminarians to force them to join the rebel army. Yet he is a many of humble joy, whose messages are filled with praise and thanks to God for the many blessings he has received.

These people fill me with hope and with shame - at all the times I have fallen into depression over the most minor of inconveniences - but there are many people who have lived through such circumstances that do not hold this hope, this joy and no one should ever fault them for it.

For me, I would be glad if the Lord would return tomorrow. It's true that there is beauty amid the pain, and joy amid the sorrow, but any good of this world is but a shadow and echo of the fullness we shall know in the age to come. That's one thing Last Battle taught me - it's silly to wish for this world and age to continue because of the good that is here. Any good here is only good because it reflects the good of what is to come.

Yes, this is what I believe as well.

 

[inkspot]

Yet some how the house of the professor, a place from a very dark chapter in their lives, is present in Narnia. Why would that be? I think that it symbolizes that even in the darkest times in our life there is still going to be some thing beuatiful.

Very nice, I like that.

Moonie, I didn't say it was presumption to believe heaven will be better than earth -- I mentioned of course we long for the world to come, because there we'll find ultimate fulfillment in Christ. What I feel is presumption is to pronounce this world bad and declare that should it end, there's nothing worth mourning. I think God sees a good world, and for our to decide it's bad and ought to end ... that I feel is presumptuous.

 

[Sven-El]

Exactly, that's another thing I've noticed on the subject... is that in The Last Battle, ( and for that matter LOTR) as Lucy and co watch as Narnia is destroyed .When Peter says not to, Tirian says it is not a discourtesy to weep for a land they loved so much. In that same vein Tolkien writes, " I will not say do not weep, for not all tears are an evil."

This may not even be an end-times related subject but just the subject of death and pain and seperation. To often we cram it down kids throats that "no you can't cry. They are in heaven. It is a better place."

I can safely say that is the worst thing to tell some one who has lost anyone. I have mentioned in other threads about my friend Kari who died in a car accident. While I knew she was in a better place, I still wept. But not for her, I wept for her husband who was now seperated from her and who would not get to hold their child in his arms. I wept for myself in losing a friend. There really is nothing wrong.

I remember reading in one of the Left Behind books when one of the main characters wife is martyred .He and their son are told not to weep, and in fact they feel barely any sadness at her loss. As a reader when I read this, the death of this character felt about as sad as misplacing your car keys. However the way Tolkien and Lewis wrote, I honestly felt sad to see Narnia end, and to learn that the Pevensies died. I felt sad to see Frodo, Gandalf, Bilbo, Elrond and Galadriel sail away into The West, and sad to see that The Third Age ended. ( then again, maybe that has something to do with their skills as writers. )

 

[Soldier of Aslan]

*jumps back in because suddenly he remembers an example, not bothering to read current thread path*
similar in spirit (though in no way theological, as it has a last minute bitter-sweet ending), 'The Emerald City of Oz', which was Baum's attempt to end his Oz series after 6 bestselling volumes, sees Oz being attacked from underground.
The Gnome King (Oz's main villain) decides that the overly perfect society that Oz is, must fall he gathers together the most strange and sometimes horrific hellions and decides to burrow under the deadly desert that surrounds and protects Oz and take over the Emerald City from the inside instead of the oft tried outer method.
Unfortunately, since everything is underground Ozma, Dorothy , the Wizard, the good witch of the North, and other high officials are at lost at what to do.
Finally, just as all doom is about to happen Glinda appears and suggests Ozma try the same thing that Glinda did to end the War that her Ancestors war centuries ago.
Using her Magic belt (which can teleport things), Ozma manages to shake loose the bottom layer of sand in the tunnel forcing the Armies below to breath in the dust. From there Glinda opens up the private Royal Garden where the Fountain of Oblivion lies. When the Armies emerges through the ground around the city, they find that all water supplies seem to have vanished save for the old fountain in the private gardens. Ignoring signs, they drink from the fountain and suddenly forget every vice and cruelty they had and are convinced to return to their home lands. Afterwards, Ozma and her friends throw a party, and make plans to repair the damage. It's here we learn that Baum has received a letter from Dorothy Gale, stating that in an effort to forestall any other invasions Glinda has rendered Oz invisible and unreachable to the outside world, save for those residing in Oz (and presumably the surrounding countries on Nonestica), and therefor would be unable to tell him of any more of their adventures.

thankfully , partly to public demand and partly to financial need, Baum returned to Oz , his excuse that he had made Radio contact with them.

*Correction, looking at my Books of Wonder fasmile , the Nomes believe that all minerals are their birthright, so the Nome King's wish to take over Oz (starting at the Emerald City) seems to not only stem from jealously but greed and the feeling of social injustice (something that reminds me of the Liberal idea of everyone should have free access to *fill in blank here*, because *blank*).*

 

[inkspot]

I remember reading in one of the Left Behind books when one of the main characters wife is martyred .He and their son are told not to weep, and in fact they feel barely any sadness at her loss. As a reader when I read this, the death of this character felt about as sad as misplacing your car keys. However the way Tolkien and Lewis wrote, I honestly felt sad to see Narnia end, and to learn that the Pevensies died. I felt sad to see Frodo, Gandalf, Bilbo, Elrond and Galadriel sail away into The West, and sad to see that The Third Age ended. ( then again, maybe that has something to do with their skills as writers. )

Yah, I would say it has A LOT to do with the skill of the writers! But also, the LB books were a weird take on the end times -- as if it were a great a adventure to be "left behind" after the "rapture" of all Christians ... kind of freaky premise any way, and then to make these "second-chance" Christians so full of faith that death meant nothing to them, was weird ...

 

[Aravis Kenobi]

Yah, I would say it has A LOT to do with the skill of the writers! But also, the LB books were a weird take on the end times -- as if it were a great a adventure to be "left behind" after the "rapture" of all Christians ... kind of freaky premise any way, and then to make these "second-chance" Christians so full of faith that death meant nothing to them, was weird ...

Personally I find the prejudice against Tim Lahaye and Jerry Jenkins as authors really deplorable. Lewis was not an end times scholar; they are (probably accounting for the way the books were written). While my memory of the books is somewhat fuzzy because it's been forever since I read them, Chloe is the person in question in Sven's post. And the reason they probably didn't feel much sadness is because #1, the persecution against Christians was ramping up, and #2, there wasn't a whole lot of time to feel sad about somebody who was better off in heaven than on earth at the time. I also think it's a misperception to say that the LB books encouraged the idea that the end times would be an adventure. Did you even read them? not flinch at some of the grotesqueness in the books? The one point where they lost me was the last two books of the series, in which one was written around the 2nd coming of Christ, and the last was about His Kingdom on earth. I don't feel that you could justly write about such a thing without being corny. However, I also think that every person is given at least another chance to turn to Christ; otherwise, He wouldn't keep knocking on the heart's door. Also, saying that they're "'second-chance" Christians' is somewhat of an implied belief insult to those who currently believe, like me, that after the Rapture, there will be a new generation of Christians. Pretty sure that's in the Bible, but I don't memorize those miniscule passages. If you want to believe that wont' happen, fine. But don't put it in quotation marks because it implies a mocking of what other Christians believe. "So full of faith"? Something wrong with that? I didn't break down and sob when my grandfather died, so...I guess that makes me a heartless person because I wasn't overly upset about it? Sure, I've cried and been upset. But I'm glad he's not here having to suffer anymore. I think people, especially on this forum and other Christians, tend to look at the surface of things instead of looking at the deeper message behind it. I mean hello: I'd almost rather people that I loved die and go to Heaven during that time because they wouldn't have to go through such horrible events! But I guess i can call myself "so full of faith" that I don't need to get any more faith because I wasn't oh-so-brokenhearted over somebody's death.


That all said, I don't seriously think TLB can stand in for a good, solid study of Revelation and other end-times passages in the Bible. I also think it's rather oversimplified and leaves out some important aspects of the end-times, such as the Rapture (due to Lewis' particular beliefs, perhaps?). Younger Christians: it might be a good entry point to understanding Revelation. Older Christians: find a good solid Bible study because TLB won't be able to suffice it all. TLB has never been one of my favorites probably for those reasons.

 

[Arvan]

The Last Battle is not allegory. It is the story of another world's ending, another world with it's own history. It's not meant to be a mirror of our own end times to come.

 

[Soldier of Aslan]

The Last Battle is not allegory. It is the story of another world's ending, another world with it's own history. It's not meant to be a mirror of our own end times to come.

Not a direct allegory, however it does have strong similarities.

 

[Arvan]

Certainly; because if there were other worlds created by the same God, then logically similar things would happen to them.

 

[Soldier of Aslan]

Certainly; because if there were other worlds created by the same God, then logically similar things would happen to them.

Yes, therefore it's not an allegory, but rather a similar happening on another world

 

[The Spanish Inquisition]

Personally I find the prejudice against Tim Lahaye and Jerry Jenkins as authors really deplorable. Lewis was not an end times scholar; they are (probably accounting for the way the books were written).

That may be so, but Lewis is a far better writer. I haven't read all the LB books (only the first two or so), mostly because I found the writing so bad.

"So full of faith"? Something wrong with that?

I think the point was that because they have no fear, they are less human as characters. Sometimes it seems that Christian characters ARE too faithful. It's as if the authors are afraid of portraying flawed Christians. We're all human, and characters in dangerous situations SHOULD feel fear. At least, some of them should.

I didn't break down and sob when my grandfather died, so...I guess that makes me a heartless person because I wasn't overly upset about it? Sure, I've cried and been upset. But I'm glad he's not here having to suffer anymore. I think people, especially on this forum and other Christians, tend to look at the surface of things instead of looking at the deeper message behind it. I mean hello: I'd almost rather people that I loved die and go to Heaven during that time because they wouldn't have to go through such horrible events! But I guess i can call myself "so full of faith" that I don't need to get any more faith because I wasn't oh-so-brokenhearted over somebody's death.

I don't think they should have thrown temper tantrums when the character died, but there's obviously middle ground between fits of sobbing and not being sad at all. Again, you're sad because you miss the person who died, but glad they're in a better place.

 

[Arvan]

I didn't break down crying at my grandpa's funeral either, but I was still sad. Not because he wasn't here, but because I couldn't be with him. There's nothing wrong with being sorrowful because of separation. But it seems unnatural to have no emotion when someone dies!

 

[inkspot]

Thanks SIq and Arvan.

I also think it's a misperception to say that the LB books encouraged the idea that the end times would be an adventure. Did you even read them?

Yah, I read them. The heroes were these folks who didn't know Jesus, then after He came and took away all the Christians and the Antichrist took over, they decided to fight for Jesus after all and had these great shoot-em-up adventures. As for LaHaye and Jenkins being end-times scholars, I don't get that at all, especially if they felt they were faithfully portraying what the Bible says will happen in these end times (struggling not to use my offensive quotation marks!). I think TLB comes much closer to the spirit and events of the end times as best we can see them in the Bible than the LB books did, and Lewis is, of course, a much better writer.

 

[Arvan]

So we've got TLB and the LB books... both pertaining to end times. Confusing.

 

[Sven-El]

here's nothing wrong with being sorrowful because of separation.

Exactly, and that was part of the point of my post. I feel that children especially need to hear that it is OK if someone they love dies. Part of the fear children have of death and the Rapture is that it plays into their innate fear of abandonment. Ever seen a child lost at a zoo, or a park, or a store? They honestly think their parents abandoned them, even though their parents ( at least any sensible parent) are probably already looking for them.

It's even worse for a child at a funeral. You can't say "don't worry, mommy will be right back" because she can't come back. It's the final abandonment. While I would hope to have the faith and strength to tell a child "stop crying, grow up, mommy is in a better place." I know the better thing to do is take them in my arms and let them cry.

Lewis I feel tells children there is nothing to fear in death if you are ready, with out resorting to scaring them half to death and making them sleep with the lights on.

And yes, I read the Left Behind books. All 12 of them, plus the prequel trilogy, the sequel set during the Millennium, and all 40 "kids" ( kids is in quotations as the way I see it, if a kid under the age of 11 isn't ready for The Diary of Anne Frank or Corrie Ten-Boom's The Hidding Place, then they are not ready for Left Behind: The Kids.) novels. Now lets stop a moment. That is a total of 56 books, 57 if you count the nonfiction book they wrote on the subject. I can admit that is an impressive feat. Lets look at some of the so called "greats" of literature and their output-

William Shakespeare-36
Charles Dickens-20
Jane Austen-17
Mark Twain-14( not counting individual short stores)
Dante-12
Jonathan Swift-10
John Milton-27
Nathaniel Hawthorne-1
Herman Melville-20
Chaucer-10
John Bunyan-2
CS Lewis-37
JRR Tolkien-13. ( my numbers wer off in my first post. I ahd to check my self again, and I count LOTR as one book as he intended.)
Homer-2
Sophocles-7

Even I can admit that 57 books is impressive. In terms of output alone, LaHaye and Jenkins win. However even they admit that there was some speculation on their part of a few of the details and some aspects that were poetic licensing for dramatic narrative purposes. Also, after a point author fatigue was setting in, but at least they stuck to it.

Not only did I read Left behind, for a long time, all I wanted to read was Christian End-Times fiction and studies on eschatology ( which included both pre-trib and post-trib rapture views.) In fact it got to the point that I all but abandoned Narnia, and my mom had to practically twist my arm around to get me to even pick up LOTR. I had decided at that time, "what is the point of reading about made-up fantasy worlds when it is more important to be prepared for the end of this world." ( I eventually found my way back to reading fantasy books). In fact it was because of this obsession I finally read 1984, Brave New World, Fahrenheit 451, and oddly A Tale of Two Cities all because of references to these books in End-times stories ( though for some odd reason I kept expecting some one to offer Sidney Carton the Mark of the Beast in Tale of Two Cities. I think it had something to do with the guillotine).

In reading all the end-times novels I noticed that no two series were the same. Many of the details were different from book to book, almost too many to name here in this post. Namely none of the scholars can agree on the whole Rapture thing (so it is probably for the best that Lewis didn't delve into it). They all seemed to favor the guillotine though ( thankfully that is absent in Lewis' book. I doubt kids would have been able to handle seeing Eustace Scrubb, Jewel the Unicorn and a few of the good dogs beheaded like Marie Antoinette.) Certainly I agree with AK that The Last Battle should not replace a thorough study of Eschatology, any more then I believe any of the fictional series should replace such a study.

I have the feeling when the real Last Days happen, and I believe it will, it will most likely not look like how it did in any of the books or films I saw. In fact I venture to guess that when the curtain is drawn and the last page is written on the book of history, the real thing will make all the fictional books I read on the subject look like how Indiana Jones and Captain America: The First Avenger look next to say Schindler's List, The Hiding Place, or The Diary of Anne Frank.


And for the sake of clarity lets just call the Last Battle CON:LB to differentiate.