Lost Dreamer
New member
Lady Lorien; i personally wouldn't bother changing those verses. It flows just the way it is; 'mistake' or no 'mistake'.
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Lady of Lorien
New member
Thanks, yeah, I think I'm going to leave them as is - because I can't find anything that works so well with the right rhyme. It doesn't matter really. 
Lost Dreamer
New member
Well, normally i'm a stickler for it rhyming. Maybe i thought in some warped, absentminded way my opinion was signifigant.
Copperfox
Well-known member
On the other hand, a strong rhythm can carry you along without any rhymes, as in Milton's "Paradise Lost." Check out this excerpt, when Lucifer has just announced his rebellion against God, and has mocked a good angel named Abdiel who tried to talk him out of it. Abdiel here speaks to Lucifer (note that the word "devoted" in this older English means "doomed")...
"No more be troubled how to quit the yoke
Of God's Messiah; those indulgent laws
Will not now be vouchsafed--other decrees
Against thee are gone forth without recall.
That golden scepter which thou didst reject
Is now an iron rod to bruise and break
Thy disobedience! Well thou didst advise;
But not for thine advice or threats I fly
These wicked tents devoted, lest the wrath
Impendent, raging into sudden flame,
Distinguish not; for soon expect to feel
His thunder on thy head, devouring fire.
Then Who created thee, lamenting learn,
When Who can UN-create thee thou shalt know."
I copied that entirely from memory. I say so, not to brag about my memory; one time I drove all the way to work without ever taking my emergency brake off. But I say it to illustrate that powerful poetry can impress itself solidly on your mind even without the aid of rhyme, though rhyme certainly helps.
"No more be troubled how to quit the yoke
Of God's Messiah; those indulgent laws
Will not now be vouchsafed--other decrees
Against thee are gone forth without recall.
That golden scepter which thou didst reject
Is now an iron rod to bruise and break
Thy disobedience! Well thou didst advise;
But not for thine advice or threats I fly
These wicked tents devoted, lest the wrath
Impendent, raging into sudden flame,
Distinguish not; for soon expect to feel
His thunder on thy head, devouring fire.
Then Who created thee, lamenting learn,
When Who can UN-create thee thou shalt know."
I copied that entirely from memory. I say so, not to brag about my memory; one time I drove all the way to work without ever taking my emergency brake off. But I say it to illustrate that powerful poetry can impress itself solidly on your mind even without the aid of rhyme, though rhyme certainly helps.
Lady of Lorien
New member
Lost Dreamer said:Well, normally i'm a stickler for it rhyming. Maybe i thought in some warped, absentminded way my opinion was signifigant.
Oh no, I didn't mean it that way... As a matter of fact, I'm also a stickler for rhyme and meter. That's probably fairly obvious from my poem.
I don't like 'free verse.' And your opinion is always welcome!
Lost Dreamer
New member
Wow Copper. From memory? Not me...too old English, i think. But i get the point. I have had that happen to me--rarely--where non-rhyming poem was so strong it just stuck in my head.
Lorien; i know you didn't, i was just joking. Its funny because i dislike free-verse myself; and i've only written one poem that way ever. I think free verse has its place, and is too often taken out of thar place.
Lorien; i know you didn't, i was just joking. Its funny because i dislike free-verse myself; and i've only written one poem that way ever. I think free verse has its place, and is too often taken out of thar place.
CONVEYING LOVE
Perhaps the most difficult thing to do in writing is to convey love properly. I'm not talking about attraction.... "Daisy June had called me her 'Honey Lamb' and I could feel my pulse pounding in my ears.."
With love it is better to show it than to tell it. Here is a short exerpt from "The Regatta" in my novelette "Byron on Wells". It concerns Horace and Crystal Beaverlee, a pair of middle aged beavers, talking about the regatta:
Chios looked at Dad. “You’re the aquatic sort. Hard muscle, not a bit of fat on you if I may be so bold. If the badgers and foxes can form a crew, why not the beavers?”
“We’re not known for being team players,” Dad answered with unusual frankness. “Well not sport teams. I must say the Missus is my other half. She completes me.” He felt her paw slip over the top of his and he reached over with the other paw to give it a pat.
See how that works?
Perhaps the most difficult thing to do in writing is to convey love properly. I'm not talking about attraction.... "Daisy June had called me her 'Honey Lamb' and I could feel my pulse pounding in my ears.."
With love it is better to show it than to tell it. Here is a short exerpt from "The Regatta" in my novelette "Byron on Wells". It concerns Horace and Crystal Beaverlee, a pair of middle aged beavers, talking about the regatta:
Chios looked at Dad. “You’re the aquatic sort. Hard muscle, not a bit of fat on you if I may be so bold. If the badgers and foxes can form a crew, why not the beavers?”
“We’re not known for being team players,” Dad answered with unusual frankness. “Well not sport teams. I must say the Missus is my other half. She completes me.” He felt her paw slip over the top of his and he reached over with the other paw to give it a pat.
See how that works?
Yes, my english teacher gave my class an example like that this year. I keep trying to write things but I am always unsatisfied with how they turn out. I can't write anything seriously, it always ends up with some humor twist.EveningStar said:
Copperfox
Well-known member
FERNSHIREHOBBIT: Perhaps you could write a story in which humor arises naturally out of a situation that still is serious. I recall an actual incident that happened to my father in World War Two; it was a life-and-death emergency, but having survived it, my Dad could look back and find one aspect of it funny.
Dad was a transport pilot in the war, delivering "beans, bandages and bullets" to the troops, as the saying was then. Once he was piloting his unarmed, unescorted cargo aircraft over a mountain range in Asia, when a Japanese fighter plane appeared and attacked. The one survival advantage Dad's plane had was that, precisely because it was slower than the Zero, it could change direction faster. So, dodging the machine-gun fire with constant sharp turns, Dad lured his attacker closer and closer to a mountain...until, at last, Dad's plane was SO close that IT could just barely turn in time to avoid hitting the mountain--but the Zero couldn't. The fighter plane exploded against a cliffside, like an Imperial fighter chasing Han Solo in the asteroid field, and Dad got away with all of his crew alive.
What was funny--what all the transport crewmen could laugh about after the danger was past--was that, during the Zero's attack, one crewman had been firing a pistol out a hatch at the Zero, his bullets doing exactly as much damage to the enemy plane as his furious cursing did.
Joseph Ravitts, author of "Southward the Tigers"
Dad was a transport pilot in the war, delivering "beans, bandages and bullets" to the troops, as the saying was then. Once he was piloting his unarmed, unescorted cargo aircraft over a mountain range in Asia, when a Japanese fighter plane appeared and attacked. The one survival advantage Dad's plane had was that, precisely because it was slower than the Zero, it could change direction faster. So, dodging the machine-gun fire with constant sharp turns, Dad lured his attacker closer and closer to a mountain...until, at last, Dad's plane was SO close that IT could just barely turn in time to avoid hitting the mountain--but the Zero couldn't. The fighter plane exploded against a cliffside, like an Imperial fighter chasing Han Solo in the asteroid field, and Dad got away with all of his crew alive.
What was funny--what all the transport crewmen could laugh about after the danger was past--was that, during the Zero's attack, one crewman had been firing a pistol out a hatch at the Zero, his bullets doing exactly as much damage to the enemy plane as his furious cursing did.
Joseph Ravitts, author of "Southward the Tigers"
Lady of Lorien
New member
EveningStar said:
You're right there - It is sometimes difficult to portray love (real, deep love, that is) without sounding cheesy or sappy. And saying "he loved her with all his heart," doesn't exactly go very far in a lot of cases.
Copperfox
Well-known member
It will not surprise any Aslan fan to hear that sacrifice demonstrates love. If you've read Sir Walter Scott's "Ivanhoe," or seen the Robert Taylor movie of it, you know that the Jewish heroine Rebecca exposed herself to trouble by helping Sir Wilfrid of Ivanhoe. She knew that religious differences would prevent him from ever marrying her even if he hadn't already been in love with Lady Rowena; but she still helped him, because she loved him unselfishly.
Lost Dreamer
New member
Whats that quote...there is no greater love than one man sacrificing his life for another? Can't remember it exactly; but i think its my favorite quotes of all time. And, its true. But sometimes i think people try to use it too much. I've seen stories where that sort of scenario pops up repeatedly; and as a result you loose respect for what is going on. This happens alot with 'faithful servant's' too--like in Robinson Crusoe, when Friday pledged eternal servant-hood to Robinson for saving his life. While it was plasuable for Friday to do such a thing, the writer had it done so casually that it seemed unrealistic. This happens alot in books, and i personaly think its pretty sad.
Copperfox
Well-known member
The Scripture you want is John 15:12-13.
And you're right: sacrificial faithfulness, like horror or sex, can be cheapened by using too much of it in a story without justification. An example of NOT cheapening it comes to mind from the TV sci-fi series "Stargate Atlantis."
There was an episode in which the obnoxious scientist--I don't watch enough TV to have his name committed to memory, but any S.A. viewer knows who I mean--was THE ONLY man who could save Atlantis and everyone in it from destruction. It had something to do with him being a carrier of some energy that would prevent something like a bomb from going off inside the city. He was NOT AT ALL desirous to be the hero, especially since he had cause to believe that he would die in the act of neutralizing the bomb; but he went to where the menace was anyway. He wasn't laughing or singing--he looked as if he would cry like a baby with fear--BUT HE WENT THERE ALL THE SAME. Struggling with his utter terror, forcing himself to approach the deadly device, he finally came to it...and was relieved beyond expressing when the bomb was disarmed WITHOUT his having to die.
That was not cheap comic-book heroism being depicted.
And you're right: sacrificial faithfulness, like horror or sex, can be cheapened by using too much of it in a story without justification. An example of NOT cheapening it comes to mind from the TV sci-fi series "Stargate Atlantis."
There was an episode in which the obnoxious scientist--I don't watch enough TV to have his name committed to memory, but any S.A. viewer knows who I mean--was THE ONLY man who could save Atlantis and everyone in it from destruction. It had something to do with him being a carrier of some energy that would prevent something like a bomb from going off inside the city. He was NOT AT ALL desirous to be the hero, especially since he had cause to believe that he would die in the act of neutralizing the bomb; but he went to where the menace was anyway. He wasn't laughing or singing--he looked as if he would cry like a baby with fear--BUT HE WENT THERE ALL THE SAME. Struggling with his utter terror, forcing himself to approach the deadly device, he finally came to it...and was relieved beyond expressing when the bomb was disarmed WITHOUT his having to die.
That was not cheap comic-book heroism being depicted.
Copperfox,
perhaps I will try that.
perhaps I will try that.
Lost Dreamer
New member
Some people think that if they let thier charecter show fear it makes him look weak; so they try to give them a super-heroe attitude about what they are doing.
I think fear actually makes a charecter stronger--it makes them human, makes it easier for the reader to identify with him, and helps us to sympathyze with him. Although of course, only in moderation; too much fear has the wrong effect...
I think fear actually makes a charecter stronger--it makes them human, makes it easier for the reader to identify with him, and helps us to sympathyze with him. Although of course, only in moderation; too much fear has the wrong effect...
Copperfox
Well-known member
Time for another session
I have written songs in my time; sometimes I composed a tune first and then made up lyrics to fit, other times the reverse. It strikes me that writing prose fiction poses the same kind of question to an author: which element to start with?
If I were Victor Hugo, setting out to write "Les Miserables," I could have said to myself:
"Let's see, the years between the First (1789) and Second (1844) French Revolutions were eventful years, when opposing social forces contended for the very soul of French civilization. It should be worthwhile writing a novel in that setting; so, what sort of central character should I create for it?"
Or I could have said to myself:
"Let's see, I can probably catch the attention of readers if I write a novel about a man who's been unjustly punished and persecuted, but who finds help that enables him to rise above hate and revenge, so that he becomes a saintly figure who returns good for evil. But what period of history should I place him in?"
Characters first, or situations first? If I did a poll, I'd probably find that most members here prefer to imagine their leading characters first and then devise the circumstances for those characters; and yet it can also happen that a prior choice of situation _prompts_ us to decide what sort of characters should be present.
I invite authors here to comment on which way the earliest beginnings of their stories were formed, and why.
-- Joseph Ravitts, author of "Southward the Tigers," right here in Prof's Club
I have written songs in my time; sometimes I composed a tune first and then made up lyrics to fit, other times the reverse. It strikes me that writing prose fiction poses the same kind of question to an author: which element to start with?
If I were Victor Hugo, setting out to write "Les Miserables," I could have said to myself:
"Let's see, the years between the First (1789) and Second (1844) French Revolutions were eventful years, when opposing social forces contended for the very soul of French civilization. It should be worthwhile writing a novel in that setting; so, what sort of central character should I create for it?"
Or I could have said to myself:
"Let's see, I can probably catch the attention of readers if I write a novel about a man who's been unjustly punished and persecuted, but who finds help that enables him to rise above hate and revenge, so that he becomes a saintly figure who returns good for evil. But what period of history should I place him in?"
Characters first, or situations first? If I did a poll, I'd probably find that most members here prefer to imagine their leading characters first and then devise the circumstances for those characters; and yet it can also happen that a prior choice of situation _prompts_ us to decide what sort of characters should be present.
I invite authors here to comment on which way the earliest beginnings of their stories were formed, and why.
-- Joseph Ravitts, author of "Southward the Tigers," right here in Prof's Club
Lost Dreamer,
I also believe that showing the fears of charictors allows the audience to see that in some ways they are much like themselves. It gives a fealing of reality to the charictors. In the real world, their is something that everyone of us are afraid of. It is natural, it cannot be escaped. So there is nothing wrong with bringing a natural charictoristic to our charictors.
I also believe that showing the fears of charictors allows the audience to see that in some ways they are much like themselves. It gives a fealing of reality to the charictors. In the real world, their is something that everyone of us are afraid of. It is natural, it cannot be escaped. So there is nothing wrong with bringing a natural charictoristic to our charictors.
Lost Dreamer
New member
Lets see. I'll use my story, Night Hawk:
I had been thinking about a book i read a few months ago, The Gaurdian, part two in the O'Mally series; and I began to wonder what lenghts someone would go to to protect someone else. That in turn led into a vauge story-line about a person who selected people he/she had seen in newsreports that had been given police protection; and went all-out to protect them using a hidden identity. Because this person would need to have some reason for wanting to do this i began to form a background, and that in turn formed the charecter. The rest is history.
Oddly enough i don't usually do very well forming the plot first; most of the time a have a sort of mental image of some incident with the charecter painted vividly in that scene. Often i'll experiment with different ways of them acting to that curcumstance, adding bits before and after, and it just sort of comes. I think if i tried specifically to make a plot and then insertt he charecter i would be unable to write it; i do terrible without inspiration.
I had been thinking about a book i read a few months ago, The Gaurdian, part two in the O'Mally series; and I began to wonder what lenghts someone would go to to protect someone else. That in turn led into a vauge story-line about a person who selected people he/she had seen in newsreports that had been given police protection; and went all-out to protect them using a hidden identity. Because this person would need to have some reason for wanting to do this i began to form a background, and that in turn formed the charecter. The rest is history.
Oddly enough i don't usually do very well forming the plot first; most of the time a have a sort of mental image of some incident with the charecter painted vividly in that scene. Often i'll experiment with different ways of them acting to that curcumstance, adding bits before and after, and it just sort of comes. I think if i tried specifically to make a plot and then insertt he charecter i would be unable to write it; i do terrible without inspiration.
Lady of Lorien
New member
I've tried both methods. Sometimes I come up with a character and fit the story around them. Of course, the problem there is that often you come to a hang-up in the plot, where no plausible solution seems to work, and you have to go back and change some beloved aspect of the story. This because you didn't plan the plot. On the other hand, if one fits the characters to the plot, the characters can have 'not enough character,' to them. They can become the tools of the plot. I sometimes think a kind of mixed approach works the best. Formatting and developing characters at the same time as the plot is woven and thought out. Easier said than done, I know, but...
Copperfox
Well-known member
On to another subtopic
Back before it became common for English-language poetry to use rhyme, something they used a lot was alliteration--like "Peter Piper picked a peck of pickled peppers," or "Around the rugged rock the ragged rascal ran." Note that, for purposes of same-letter word beginnings, all vowels can be treated as if they were the same letter. A piece of alliterative heroic verse in a Narnian setting might go like this:
Advancing against the eager attackers,
Oreius, unafraid, aimed for the enemy.
The master minotaur menaced him madly,
But the centaur swordsman soon slew that scoundrel.
Now general Oreius jumped into jeopardy,
Trying to take down the terrible tyrant
Before she could blast him and bind him in basalt;
But his weapon went wide, and the Witch's wand got him.
Only when Aslan arrived in the area
Did death overtake the demonic dame.
Anyone writing a story in which "ancient" verses are found by some character could give the verses the feel of a different era by using alliteration.
Back before it became common for English-language poetry to use rhyme, something they used a lot was alliteration--like "Peter Piper picked a peck of pickled peppers," or "Around the rugged rock the ragged rascal ran." Note that, for purposes of same-letter word beginnings, all vowels can be treated as if they were the same letter. A piece of alliterative heroic verse in a Narnian setting might go like this:
Advancing against the eager attackers,
Oreius, unafraid, aimed for the enemy.
The master minotaur menaced him madly,
But the centaur swordsman soon slew that scoundrel.
Now general Oreius jumped into jeopardy,
Trying to take down the terrible tyrant
Before she could blast him and bind him in basalt;
But his weapon went wide, and the Witch's wand got him.
Only when Aslan arrived in the area
Did death overtake the demonic dame.
Anyone writing a story in which "ancient" verses are found by some character could give the verses the feel of a different era by using alliteration.