The Seven Swords anti-VODT?

I think the intent of this thread was to explore how the plot elements that were added to the film went counter to ideas or themes of the book. That implies that discussion of the book contents vis á vis the movie is legitimate here.

But even leaving the book contents aside: based on the dialogue in the movie, there was no indication that Caspian IX even knew about a green mist. How the seven swords related to anyone or anything Telmarine is never explained - simply that the Lords had them somehow, for some reason. (That itself defies logic: special, magical swords might be present, but would not be carried about for common use.) Even in the movie, the Lords fled to the Lone Islands to escape persecution by Miraz, not to do anything about the green mist. A comment by Lord Bern indicates that they learned of the mist in the Lone Islands, and six of them went out to fight it (why Lord Bern didn't isn't explained, to my memory.)

It seems to me that BK's point in all this is that the introduction of these alien elements not only destroys the harmony of the original story, but creates plot weaknesses that didn't exist in the book. I'm just agreeing with him.
 
The seven swords are not a big issue for me. They are linked to the seven lords, who are in the book. They don't take up a lot of screentime. So they don't bother me, and I don't think they're anti VDT.

There is one problem, though, which others have pointed out as well. Lord Bern's explanation! It's unlikely that he would know about this. He should only have given the sword as a present to Caspian, and Coriakin should have explained, where they came from. It wouldn't be strange, that he knew about such things.
Aslan could have given the swords right after the Pevensies left the first time, and that's why they don't know about them.

This is what I think anyway. "Sir Tom" could have a point, that perhaps Caspian IX was a good king, and interested in the old Narnia. We know very little about that. But I still think, it would be better, if Coriakin did the explanation!
 
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In the movie PC, Miraz tells Caspian that Telmarines take what they want and that Caspian's father knew hat as much as anyone.

That doesn't sound like Caspian IX was necesarily good. He wasn't necessarily bad either. I don't think we knew one way or the other.

MrBob
 
We can imagine a lot of things about Narnia, but that doesn't mean that it fits with the author's point and spirit of the story. Heck I could write a story that says that the Telmarines were dwarf cousins of the Giants from the North. My imagination would run wild there. But doing so would be contrary to the intent of the Chronicles themselves (though it would be funny:) ). Consequently, the Seven Swords added an alien element that is contrary to the spirit of that particular story, VODT.
 
Here's the dialogue from the film:

Bern: No one knows. The mist was first seen in the East. Reports of fishermen and sailors disappearing out at sea. We lords made a pact to find the source of the mist and destroy it. They each set sail, but none came back. You see, if they don’t sell you to the slave traders, you’re likely to be fed to the mist.

Bern: [walks up to Caspian holding a sword covered in barnacles] My King! My King! This [the sword] was given to me by your father. I hid it safely in a cave all these years.
Edmund: That’s an old Narnian sword!
Bern: It’s from your Golden Age. There are seven such swords; gifts from Aslan to protect Narnia. Your father entrusted them to us. Here, take it. And may it protect you.
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The interesting thing about the swords to me is that they were given to protect Narnia. Weapons were given by Aslan for the protection of Narnia. Sounds contrary to the spirit of the story, but I don't think that argument can be made absolutely.

The part that interests me the most about the swords is that they had to be laid down to protect Narnia. It reminded me of the Garden of Gethsemane, when Peter is reprimanded by Jesus after he raises a sword. In the same way, the swords are given by Aslan only to be laid down. To me, that is what the seven swords were about.

In fact, the sword became a symbol of honor, in the film. Two Kings both wielded the sword given to Peter by Father Christmas, and neither sought to out-King one another, and both showed great respect for each other in that regard. Caspian offers Edmund the sword, and Edmund declines, only taking it when necessary and never before. Caspian doesn't ever lord it over Edmund, and marvels over the fact that Edmund gave up his sword, to which Edmund responds that it wasn't his to begin with.

The display of humility from both Kings was very well displayed. The swords allowed for that to happen.

I could go on, but I realized that I would go on for a few pages about the correlation of the mist to the swords, the mist to the dark island, and the implications of both. (I look at the Dark Island and Green Mist as Screwtape and Wormwood, for instance. In the book, Lewis never gives the origin of the Dark Island. Likewise, the Green Mist must also have an origin, but as was mentioned earlier in the thread, its' origin was not mentioned... you can draw your own conclusions from that, but I look at it as something that had to come from introduced evil, such as in our world.)
 
Specter said:
Here's the dialogue from the film:



The interesting thing about the swords to me is that they were given to protect Narnia. Weapons were given by Aslan for the protection of Narnia. Sounds contrary to the spirit of the story, but I don't think that argument can be made absolutely.

The part that interests me the most about the swords is that they had to be laid down to protect Narnia. It reminded me of the Garden of Gethsemane, when Peter is reprimanded by Jesus after he raises a sword. In the same way, the swords are given by Aslan only to be laid down. To me, that is what the seven swords were about.

In fact, the sword became a symbol of honor, in the film. Two Kings both wielded the sword given to Peter by Father Christmas, and neither sought to out-King one another, and both showed great respect for each other in that regard. Caspian offers Edmund the sword, and Edmund declines, only taking it when necessary and never before. Caspian doesn't ever lord it over Edmund, and marvels over the fact that Edmund gave up his sword, to which Edmund responds that it wasn't his to begin with.

The display of humility from both Kings was very well displayed. The swords allowed for that to happen.

I could go on, but I realized that I would go on for a few pages about the correlation of the mist to the swords, the mist to the dark island, and the implications of both. (I look at the Dark Island and Green Mist as Screwtape and Wormwood, for instance. In the book, Lewis never gives the origin of the Dark Island. Likewise, the Green Mist must also have an origin, but as was mentioned earlier in the thread, its' origin was not mentioned... you can draw your own conclusions from that, but I look at it as something that had to come from introduced evil, such as in our world.)
Click to expand...

Very interesting points! And thanks for the direct quotes from the movie. Personally, I think the added story of the swords merely enhanced the spirit of reading the book, actually. When I watched the movie, I had this incredible feeling which was nearly identical to what I felt when I first read the book. The other two movies simply did not quite have this much of an effect on me.
The idea of Aslan giving weapons to protect Narnia is no shock to me. He led battles in other books, and He has even done very similar things (including giving weapons) in our own world. This is getting a little off-topic on my part, but it seems a recurring message with God/Aslan that there is a time to fight, as well as a time not to fight. A more modern example of this is the testimony of Sergeant Alvin York of WWI. If you haven't heard of him, I suggest reading his book and seeing the movie that was made about him.
 
I also thank you Specter for the dialogue. I forgot about that line (I did only see it once). However, the idea that Caspian IX would have seven Narnian swords is curious. How could he have gotten them? I doubt they would have been passed down via the kings. Swords of old enemies are not necessarily prized possessions that one would revere.

MrBob
 
MrBob said:
I also thank you Specter for the dialogue. I forgot about that line (I did only see it once). However, the idea that Caspian IX would have seven Narnian swords is curious. How could he have gotten them? I doubt they would have been passed down via the kings. Swords of old enemies are not necessarily prized possessions that one would revere.

MrBob
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I think that's meant to be left up to us to figure out for now.
I imagine that Caspian the 9th was a much better man than most other Telmarines, and he probably was a seeker of truths, much like his son. So, he probably did some exploring and searching and managed to find them at some point. Who knows the "real" story, but it's fun to imagine what may have happened.
 
Personally, I'd imagine that would be part of the reason he was killed. Perhaps he was considered weaker than most. There is also the fact that Dr. Cornelius was hired to teach Caspian, and the Narnian lore that he kept.
 
Specter said:
Personally, I'd imagine that would be part of the reason he was killed. Perhaps he was considered weaker than most. There is also the fact that Dr. Cornelius was hired to teach Caspian, and the Narnian lore that he kept.
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You're right. In bringing these things up, it makes it seem very likely that Caspian the 9th was probably very interested in Old Narnian history.
 
Cornelius did identify Caspian's mother as being "the only Telemarine who was ever kind to me." But I still think the whole premise that Telmarines - particularly the king Telmarine - would have even known about Aslan, much less cared about relics from the Old Narnian past, is stretching the story beyond its framework.
 
PrinceOfTheWest said:
Cornelius did identify Caspian's mother as being "the only Telemarine who was ever kind to me." But I still think the whole premise that Telmarines - particularly the king Telmarine - would have even known about Aslan, much less cared about relics from the Old Narnian past, is stretching the story beyond its framework.
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I tend to disagree. Since it doesn't seem to be harming the story anyway, I don't see any reason to be upset over it.
 
Specter said:
Personally, I'd imagine that would be part of the reason he was killed. Perhaps he was considered weaker than most. There is also the fact that Dr. Cornelius was hired to teach Caspian, and the Narnian lore that he kept.
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If I remember correctly, Cornelius was hired by Miraz, not Caspian the 9th. He was hired after Miraz fired Caspian's nurse (who turned out to be part-Dwarf) for teaching him the old Narnian lore.

How did Caspian's mother die? Do the books ever say?
 
"I imagine that Caspian the 9th was a much better man than most other Telmarines, and he probably was a seeker of truths, much like his son."

Sir Tom, as I metnioned, Miraz in the PC movie stated to Caspian that Caspian IX knew as much as anyone that Telmarines took what they wanted. To me, that implied that Caspian IX got to the throne in a similar way as Miraz.

MrBob
 
Well, I don't know if he resorted to quite the same tactics. The fact that Caspian X was known as "tenth of that name" indicates that the succession was passed in pretty much the normal way, without the shenanigans Miraz attempted. However, absent any contrary evidence from the books (which there isn't), we have to assume that the Telmarines in the generations leading up to Caspian were pretty much the same as the ones presented in the books. That right there would mean that they'd know little or nothing of Aslan, not care about Him if they learned anything, and hate and fear lions.

Remember, even Old Narnians like Trumpkin and Nikabrik were frankly disbelieving of Aslan's existence. Only beasts like Trufflehunter clung to belief. If not all the Narnians believed in Him, how could anyone expect Telmarines to?
 
I think you've discovered a laps in the screenwriter's plan. I think the whole Idea of the swords was cooked up as a way of explaining to the audience why they were going on the trip. From justing going on what the average person would know from the movies, the trip to islands we never knew about, to find men who are part of a race who wanted to destroy Narnia, might sound a bit far fetched. Personally, I think Lewis's writing was fine by itself with little room for improvement, however several things may have caused the production team to become giddy and over think things.
A) Disney dropped the film through production, which might have caused them to doubt the ability to continue to compete in the franchise.
B) PC did not do as well at the BO, in in reception. Which mostly had to do with the adaptation. I'm not sure how chewed out the writers felt, but after the ill reception of the changes in PC I would want to try to make VDT better.
C) Maybe, they thought that the mission of VDT wasn't big enough, especially for the Franchise's come back. They might have tried to make it seem more epic.
D) It might be the new director's input (?)
 
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MrBob said:
"I imagine that Caspian the 9th was a much better man than most other Telmarines, and he probably was a seeker of truths, much like his son."

Sir Tom, as I metnioned, Miraz in the PC movie stated to Caspian that Caspian IX knew as much as anyone that Telmarines took what they wanted. To me, that implied that Caspian IX got to the throne in a similar way as Miraz.

MrBob
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But Miraz was a filthy liar anyway who didn't like either of the Caspians, so I don't really care what he says.
 
"Well, I don't know if he resorted to quite the same tactics. The fact that Caspian X was known as "tenth of that name" indicates that the succession was passed in pretty much the normal way,"

PotW, by similar tactics, I meant eliminating the sitting king either by murder or some other similar tactics.

Sir Tom, we can only go with what was stated. The filmmakers want to weave a story and even bad characters can be accurate.

MrBob
 
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