What do you like and dislike about this book (PC)?

Peepiceek

Peepiceek

Well-known member
Since we have been having a lively discussion in another thread on the merits or demerits of the movie version of Prince Caspian, I thought it might be interesting to start a discussion about the book. Several participants on the other thread said that Prince Caspian is their favourite book, while others (including me) said it was their least favourite. So, what are the things that you like or dislike about this book?

I will start with some things I like:

(1) I like the focus on honour and on each person behaving according to their role. For example, the centaur who says "I watch the sky, for it is mine to watch," the badger who remembers that Narnia is for a man to rule over, the bear who recalls that it is the right of the bears to supply a marshall, the mice who are ready to cut off their own tails if their leader is denied his, as well as Peter who says to Caspian, "I haven't come to take your place but to put you in it". (I'm quoting from memory so it may not be exactly right.)

(2) I like the part where Edmund backs up Lucy, choosing to believe her on the basis of past evidence, and siding with her even though the older ones don't.

(3) I love Lucy's meeting with Aslan, particularly the bit where he seems bigger to her, and she explains that this is not because he is older but because she is. I never understood that part as a child, but then when I did understand it I really appreciated it.

And here are some parts that I dislike:

(1) I really dislike the two schools that appear in Chapter 14. They just don't seem to fit in the Narnian context at all. Lewis has transplanted a 19th-20th century concept and image and dumped it into what is otherwise a medieval context, and it just doesn't fit. And the descriptions of the schools and the children in them are rubbish even if they were in the right context.

(2) I'm not a fan of the whole romp - it never really made much sense to me (although I do have a better understanding of it through the 'Planet Narnia' hypothesis). Also, I don't really like the role of the trees in the whole thing, mainly because none of the trees are developed as individual characters so I find it hard to picture the scene. There is also confusion throughout the Chronicles as to whether the trees take on a human-like form (as in PC) or whether the trees have a spirit that can exist and move separately to the physical tree (as in TLB).

(3) I feel that the whole thing gets wrapped up too quickly and too easily once Peter arrives on the scene. He clears out Nikabrik & Co from the council chamber, his plan for combat with Miraz works out, and then the whole Telmarine army is really easily defeated. I know the last part is primarily Aslan's doing, but I wish the story had a bit more development to it. Peter arrives in the How at the start of Ch 12 and then the whole thing is done by the end of Ch 14. I know that most of the story is about Caspian's saga before Peter and the others join, but even so, the ending gets wrapped up too quickly for me.

Those are some initial thoughts. Feel free to comment on those or add your own.
Peeps
 
I agree with a lot of the things you say you like, Peeps, particularly that focus on honor and doing your part. St. Francis said something to the effect, "I have done what is mine to do, may Christ teach you what is yours." And I love Lucy's reunion with Aslan in PC and what she learns, that she should have followed him, even if it meant making everyone made at her! How many times are we in a position where doing what we think is right means everyone will get mad at us?

I love the way the Pevensies get into Narnia, that they realize they're being magicked, and they grab hands; that whole beginning bit where they are whisked from the train station and then slowly come to realize where they are. It's very beautiful and poignant. The discovery of the chess piece, this is something I feel like we've all experienced when we unearth a little bit of our childhood and suddenly a million memories come rushing back to us ... I love the discovery of their treasures and how the Narnian air begins to transform them into kings and queens again. The whole first portion of the book to me is lovely.

I love the character of Trumpkin. He doesn't believe in any supernatural business or any magic, but he's just doing his duty as he said he would ... he's a gem.

Like you, I wonder if the Romp and the liberation of Beruna couldn't have been staged in a way that made them more a part of the story. They seem out of place. I feel like CSL must have had a reason for all that, but I didn't understand it. Nothing up to that point in the story suggested that the Telmarines had become fanatical about school and fascist about how students and teachers ought to behave in school? I get what he was going for, that Aslan was liberating people, but the case hadn't been made that these people were in need of liberation. The case had been made that the Narnians needed liberation, but not the Telmarines themselves.

I like the end where Aslan explains who the Telmarines are, and sends them back to their island.
 
Prince Caspian is my favourite book, as I said before. I didn't want to comment right when this thread was started because I was in the midst of reading The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe and wanted to wait until I had finished re-reading Prince Caspian so that things would be fresh in my mind. It's amazing what I had forgotten about it even though I read it last year!

Things I love about it:

  • The characters for one. I love Caspian, Trufflehunter, Trumpkin (D.L.F.), and of course Reepicheep.
  • The witty lines tossed about - especially by Lucy "That's because our heads have something inside them."
  • As stated above, the theme of honour.
  • The midnight tromp through the wilds following Aslan. Aslan's talk with Susan always makes me tear up because haven't we all allowed our fears to prevent us from doing things that we ought to do?

Things I dislike:

  • The explanation about Caspian. I think it could have been done a bit better; at least that part could have happened while they were on the move instead of staying at the island to hear it all out before deciding to leave it.
  • The fact that most of the action takes place in the last five chapters of the book.
  • And of course that the book is over earlier than I want it to be.
 
Lots of good stuff in THE BOOK.

Above all, and it was a huge loss that this WASN'T in the movie, I love the overturning of toxic social customs in the Telmarine capital. Priceless line: "But, Miss Prizzle, there's a LION!!" The school scenes bear some kinship with the chastising of Experiment House in "Silver Chair." My mind also connects this with two grimmer narratives: Tolkien's Scouring of the Shire, and the downfall of Belbury in "Hideous Strength."
 
Copperfox said:
Above all, and it was a huge loss that this WASN'T in the movie, I love the overturning of toxic social customs in the Telmarine capital. Priceless line: "But, Miss Prizzle, there's a LION!!" The school scenes bear some kinship with the chastising of Experiment House in "Silver Chair." My mind also connects this with two grimmer narratives: Tolkien's Scouring of the Shire, and the downfall of Belbury in "Hideous Strength."
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I agree with you that those scenes are reminiscent of other "burn it down" sort of cleansings in CSL books and Tolkien ... but it seemed out of place here, because nothing we learned about Narnia under the Telmarines in the whole course of the book suggested that school was a like a prison and priggish behavior was encouraged and teachers were under fascist obligations not to have or encourage imagination and could be reported to some Soviet-style secret police? Granted, the truth about the talking animals had been suppressed, but for the rest of it ... it does seem a bit out of place. To me. I remember as a child thinking those scenes were sweet because Caspian was reunited with his nurse, and the one teacher was able to quit her job and follow Aslan ... but now reading it as an adult, I don't get where that whole series of vignettes connects to the rest of the story. I suppose that's why it's a children's book and you can't apply adult logic to it...
 
Prince Caspian is a brilliant story, especially the ending. There is poetic justice in the overthrow of the "enlightened" education system of the Telmarines and the subsequent refreshments. Boys that had been pigs far too long could no longer be boys again. Grapes burst forth (think "The Magician's Nephew").


Peeps:

1) Do you have any evidence to support your idea? For example, were there globes of Europe and the New World largely occupying multiple corners of said classrooms?

2) Actually the trees are well-developed earlier in the story. Lucy walks in faith toward Aslan, even when the others don't believe her. This is when the trees stir and sway in mysterious, almost mystical fashion. Aslan is breathing life into all of his creation. He is purposing his army. The enlightened Telmarines will be quite surprised later by the trees...even though they dreadfully fear them.

3) Peter is no ordinary high king. This is the boy who slaughtered the wolf with Rhindon. This is the man who pushed back the Northern Giants. This is the legend who returned to ruins, trusted his siblings to outwit a stubborn dwarf, navigated Glasswater upstream centuries later, kept a map in his head, and who approached with courage and honor the table of stone. Strategy is his strong suit. Aslan simply gave him something (very important) to do at a very important time.


The case for Caspian had to be made on the island, near where Cair Paravel once stood (and would again one day). Neither the Pevensies nor Trumpkin initially knew exactly who was fighting for what. They earned each other's trust as they surveyed their surroundings and developed a plan of action; then each had their faith shaken in various ways on the mainland.

The oppression of the Telmarines demonstrates the misplaced power of fear. Many in its society and education system were merely displacing their lack of (self-)control. As a result of the overdue romp and liberation, Beruna demonstrates the resistance and resilience needed to break away the chains of "progress."

Freed by the stalwart efforts of its heroes, Narnia then returns to peace and prosperity for generations to come. Finally, Aslan charges everyone with an important history lesson that brings the story's heavily mythic tone to a satisfying conclusion. He then closes some doors while opening others, returning the once and future regents to England while inviting Caspian and his subjects to chart their own course in Narnia. When the ageless king returns to sea in The Silver Chair, we see how the freedom to seek and find the truth has come full circle in our beloved land of Narnia.
 
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Tirian

I'm not quite sure what kind of "evidence" you are looking for or why globes should be important. Here are the descriptions of the schools in PC, though.
PC said:
The first house they came to was a school: a girls' school, where a lot of Narnian girls, with their hair done very tight and ugly tight collars round their necks and thick tickly stockings on their legs, were having a history lesson. The sort of "History" that was taught in Narnia under Miraz's rule was duller than the truest history you ever read and less true than the most exciting adventure story.
"If you don't attend, Gwendolen," said the mistress, "and stop looking out of the window, I shall have to give you an order-mark."
"But please, Miss Frizzle——" began Gwendolen.
"Did you hear what I said, Gwendolen?" asked Miss Frizzle.
"But please, Miss Frizzle," said Gwendolen, "there's a LION!"
"Take two order-marks for talking nonsense," said Miss Frizzle. "And now——" A roar interrupted her. Ivy came curling in at the windows of the classroom. The walls became a mass of shimmering green, and leafy branches arched overhead where the ceiling had been. Miss Frizzle found she was standing on grass in a forest glade. She clutched at her desk to steady herself, and found that the desk was a rose-bush. Wild people such as she had never even imagined were crowding round her. Then she saw the Lion, screamed and fled, and with her fled her class, who were mostly dumpy, prim little girls with fat legs.
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PC said:
At a little town half-way to Beaversdam, where two rivers met, they came to another school, where a tired-looking girl was teaching arithmetic to a number of boys who looked very like pigs. She looked out of the window and saw the divine revellers singing up the street and a stab of joy went through her heart. Aslan stopped right under the window and looked up at her.
"Oh, don't, don't," she said. "I'd love to. But I mustn't. I must stick to my work. And the children would be frightened if they saw you."
"Frightened?" said the most pig-like of the boys. "Who's she talking to out of the window? Let's tell the inspector she talks to people out of the window when she ought to be teaching us."
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Are you suggesting that such school scenes fit into an otherwise medieval-looking country? The set-up of the classrooms (female teachers, with a desk rather than a lectern), the discipline (order marks), the uniform (tight collars - reminds me of the "stiff Eton collar" he describes in the first chapter of TMN), and the existence of school inspectors sounds much more like a school of the early 20th century than the education system of the medieval period. Moreover, before the 19th century there was no kind of mass education, which is was these scenes feel like, and I would think that people receiving education would have been wanting to do so rather than, as these children seem to be, because they are required to be in school.

As to your points (2) and (3), I don't think they particularly contradict what I said. I was giving my opinion as to why I dislike (especially the latter part of) this book. You're not obliged to share my opinion; and I'm not particularly moved to change my opinion by the observations you made.

Peeps
 
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I was really confused as to what your point was at all about the schools. To call them rubbish and out of place are pretty strong statements that need support. I think the description of the schools is very appropriately reflective of the oppressive culture of conquest that existed under the Telmarines. Why should there not be some medieval elements, but not others, if that's the way Lewis created the Narnian world, and it still works quite well? I'm just wondering what makes you qualified to dissect his writings, especially if your criteria is based entirely on the actual history of the real world. And on that note, Narnia wasn't created until the turn of the 20th Century, suggesting that the ancestors of the Telmarines would have arrived anytime between the Edwardian Era and World War II. So I would actually expect there to be considerable 20th century influence.
 
Tirian

The thread is about our opinions of what we like and dislike about the book. The descriptions of the schools are one of the key factors that have always made Prince Caspian my least favourite of the Chronicles. You don't have to agree, but that is how it is for me. The issue is about feeling and context: in other regards the books seem to be set in a medieval-seeming context - I can't think of other elements of the books that don't fit that pattern. (One other I have a question about is in HHB when Edmund says the Splendour Hyaline could "sink" any ship that came after her, suggesting it was fitted with cannons, though no other guns appear in the Chronicles. But even then, cannons did appear in the late medieval era, and the text doesn't say it had cannons, there are other ways of sinking a ship.)

You're right that authors can incorporate a range of elements if they choose if "it works quite well". I don't think this does work well, and it also strays from Lewis's typical practice in writing of Narnia, which makes it feel discordant.

With regard to the arrival of the Telmarines, I have always assumed that different doors (or different people) might enter at different times, not necessarily following the Earth's timeline, so there is no reason for me that the pirates couldn't have entered Telmar in what was, for Earth, the 16th or 17th century. (I'm not sure when pirates were widespread in the South Seas.) In any case, there is nothing else in Telmarine descriptions that makes them seem different from general descriptions of medieval society.

Peeps
 
I wonder what the education systems of Archenland and Telmar were by the time of LWW. We know Archenland was founded by the second son of Frank and Helen, who grew up in the mid 1880s, and the Archenalnders of LWW time were humans, rather than the half nymphs and half wood and river gods of the second generation in Narnia. We really see nothing of the schooling of the normal classes.

In Archenland, the royals likely had personal tutors. In Calormen, Shasta lived in poverty and was not in school but helped his adopted father. The girls, including the upper class, seemed not to learn anything but what they would be required to know in marriage.

The Telmarines likely were more influenced by Archeland, being closer geographically while the pirates were not likely have been that big on education (and even then, the first many generations would have been more focused on survival than educating their children. As for their original wives, they were island natives who were far from traditional European education.

So this begs the question of whether Archenlanders cross bred with another group or groups (not two sons of Adam and two daughters of Eve) who had more of a modern (as of the writing of the books) understanding of education.

MrBob
 
MrBob said:
I wonder what the education systems of Archenland and Telmar were by the time of LWW. We know Archenland was founded by the second son of Frank and Helen, who grew up in the mid 1880s, and the Archenalnders of LWW time were humans, rather than the half nymphs and half wood and river gods of the second generation in Narnia. We really see nothing of the schooling of the normal classes.

In Archenland, the royals likely had personal tutors. In Calormen, Shasta lived in poverty and was not in school but helped his adopted father. The girls, including the upper class, seemed not to learn anything but what they would be required to know in marriage.

The Telmarines likely were more influenced by Archeland, being closer geographically while the pirates were not likely have been that big on education (and even then, the first many generations would have been more focused on survival than educating their children. As for their original wives, they were island natives who were far from traditional European education.

So this begs the question of whether Archenlanders cross bred with another group or groups (not two sons of Adam and two daughters of Eve) who had more of a modern (as of the writing of the books) understanding of education.

MrBob
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This is actually a very interesting line of thought on the education methods throughout Narnia! Thank you for fleshing that out.

I am also among those who count Prince Caspian among their favorite books of the series (LWW and The Horse & His Boy were also top contenders for me, but I would need to reread the series again to see if that remains true now). It's also maybe important to note that I read the series in chronological order as I think that plays somewhat a part in my opinion.

Overall, I think the magic of this story for me lies simply in the return of characters we've already come to know, as is true with any anticipated sequel that features returning characters. It's like getting to visit once more with old friend who you haven't seen in a long while; but as others have mentioned above, the themes throughout the book truly shine for me. I also loved the introduction of new characters and that there were a few more notable witty one-liners. For anything more in depth, I am in desperate need of a reread. 😄

That being said, while the romp bit doesn't bother me at all, I have to agree with your other critiques. While none of what happens at the end feels out of character or out of sort, it does wrap up very quickly. I also felt the same in LWW, too. I think these particular sections of these books were better suited to play out on a screen in terms of keeping up the story-telling tension.

As for the schools, I completely understand. It's my least favorite section of Prince Caspian. It doesn't necessarily feel out of place in terms of a medieval setting vs more modern schooling, but because there is no foreshadowing or indication of such an education system prior to this for the Telemarines. It would be like plopping down a motor vehicle in a high fantasy story. It isn't so much that the author can't make it work, but that it has the tendency to pull readers out of the story for a moment and wonder why there's a car in a high fantasy story when there's been no prior indication that a car would exist there. That being said, MrBob's post analyzing the education was quite the eye-opener for me and perhaps will give me a slightly different perspective on my next read of the series.
 
MrBob said:
.... the Archenalnders of LWW time were humans, rather than the half nymphs and half wood and river gods of the second generation in Narnia.
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MrBob said:
The Telmarines likely were more influenced by Archeland, being closer geographically
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What is your basis for these two statements? The end of TMN indicates that Frank and Helen's children inter-married with river and wood gods and became kings of Archenland (and other places), and nothing in the text suggests a different line of humans entering Archenland. I assume that Lune etc are the descendants of that original mix of humans and gods.

Also, Telmar is regarded as far to the west of Narnia, Archenland directly to the south, so what makes you say that Archenland and Telmar were connected?

Peeps
 
Lewis's attitudes to school in general seem quite negative. Of course, there is the description of Experiment House in TSC. His brief description of children's lives in TMN says that "schools were usually nastier than now" (perhaps reflecting his own bad experiences of school in the early 20th century), and most of his references to schools in the Chronicles relate to the children's desire not to be there. In that light, I guess his depiction of these modern-type schools in Prince Caspian may be his way of illustrating that Narnian society under Miraz was oppressive and restrictive, which is how Lewis seems to have felt about schools.

Peeps
 
"The end of TMN indicates that Frank and Helen's children inter-married with river and wood gods and became kings of Archenland (and other places), and nothing in the text suggests a different line of humans entering Archenland."

My point, Peep, was that the inhabitants of Archanland, the islands, and Calormen were humans. How do you keep humans in the population for a thousand years (TMN through LWW) unless you have other humans? Where did these extra human genes come from? I also wonder when Cair Paravel was created and when it was prophesied that the two Sons of Adam and Two Daughters of Eve would end the rule of the White Witch?

"Lewis's attitudes to school in general seem quite negative."

Interestingly Lewis described two schools that were opposite but both in a negative light. The PC romp schools were no fun and more authoritarian. Experiment House was way too permissive. Apparently, under the White Witch's reign, satyr and dwarf youths were sent to schools, something which the Pevensies put to an end during their reign, though how those schools operated or who taught in them was not mentioned.

MrBob
 
MrBob said:
"The end of TMN indicates that Frank and Helen's children inter-married with river and wood gods and became kings of Archenland (and other places), and nothing in the text suggests a different line of humans entering Archenland."

My point, Peep, was that the inhabitants of Archanland, the islands, and Calormen were humans. How do you keep humans in the population for a thousand years (TMN through LWW) unless you have other humans? Where did these extra human genes come from? I also wonder when Cair Paravel was created and when it was prophesied that the two Sons of Adam and Two Daughters of Eve would end the rule of the White Witch?

"Lewis's attitudes to school in general seem quite negative."

Interestingly Lewis described two schools that were opposite but both in a negative light. The PC romp schools were no fun and more authoritarian. Experiment House was way too permissive. Apparently, under the White Witch's reign, satyr and dwarf youths were sent to schools, something which the Pevensies put to an end during their reign, though how those schools operated or who taught in them was not mentioned.

MrBob
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True because you guys know what your talking about.
 
MrBob said:
My point, Peep, was that the inhabitants of Archanland, the islands, and Calormen were humans. How do you keep humans in the population for a thousand years (TMN through LWW) unless you have other humans? Where did these extra human genes come from? I also wonder when Cair Paravel was created and when it was prophesied that the two Sons of Adam and Two Daughters of Eve would end the rule of the White Witch?
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Ah, ok, I see what you're getting at. But the implication of the end of TMN is that the descendants of Frank and Helen were not pure humans (if you regard the offspring of a human and a god as not pure humans). Therefore, I guess, I don't think it essential to argue that Lune et al were pure humans in the sense of only having human ancestors and no divine ancestors. Perhaps, though, the gods are sufficiently similar to humans or the interbreeding of humans with gods makes sufficiently small changes to the human DNA that the descendants are indistinguishable from 'pure' humans.

That said, the fact that Frank and Helen and the Archenlanders appear to be white, while the Calormenes are dark-skinned, does suggest that another lineage of humans had entered the Narnian world to populate Calormen (although the much-disputed 'timeline', as I recall, does say that the Calormenes were descendants of rebel Archenlanders).

With regard to the Cair Paravel prophecy and related issues, I did discuss these things in this thread.

MrBob said:
Interestingly Lewis described two schools that were opposite but both in a negative light. The PC romp schools were no fun and more authoritarian. Experiment House was way too permissive. Apparently, under the White Witch's reign, satyr and dwarf youths were sent to schools, something which the Pevensies put to an end during their reign, though how those schools operated or who taught in them was not mentioned.
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Yes, I thought about that (that Lewis criticised schools for two opposite errors) as I was posting my last point. I'd forgotten about the schools for dwarves and satyrs under the White Witch, but it serves to emphasise the original point, ie. that Lewis is pretty negative about schools.

Peeps
 
Bringing this up to the present:

It's not at all unusual to speculate that humans could intermarry and produce children with human-like beings who were not TOO different for the chromosomes to link up. Aragorn had Elvish blood, and Mister Spock had Human blood.

In my Writing Club epic "Southward the Tigers," I depicted fae-type women marrying "regular" men. But I also conjectured additional Earth-people being transported to the Narnian world.
 
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