Chinese Poetry

Okay, here’s a first poem. I was wondering, would you guys like all the back ground info, or would you just like the poem?




“The Joy of Meeting” (1)

Wordlessly I walk up the west wing,
To see moon like a sickle…
Lonely trees(2) lock my autumn thoughts
In the courtyard below…

Unable to solve, still tangled,
Are the threads of sorrow.
The bitter tastes of parting
Lie strangely upon my heart.​

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Footnotes:

(1) This was actually a poem written to music, kind of like filling the words of a song. It is a form of poetry very common in the Song Dynasty (960-1279AD). The title “The Joy of Meeting” is actually the title of the music, not the poem. Many poems were written to the same pieces of music, and later poets would add their own title, but not in this case.

(2) In the Chinese poem, the trees were named: “The silent firmiana and paulownia trees lock my autumn thoughts”, but to translate that would make the poem too clumsy.


A little back ground?
The poet, Li Yu (I am using Mandarin spelling for all the names, since I’m not familiar with Cantonese spelling) lived from 937-978 AD. He was the third king of a small kingdom (Nan Tang) in the south of China. He wasn’t a very good king, as he did not focus on dealing with the chaotic political situations in China. He focused on his own interests and did not rule his kingdom much, leaving the job to his advisors. To gain peace, he agreed to offer tribute to a greater in the North, the Song kingdom. But in 975 AD, Song invaded and took over Nan Tang. Li Yu became a prisoner and lived the rest of his life under the Song rule. He wrote many of his most famous poems in this period of time, including the one above. (By the way, even the title was translated by me, so it is not the official version, if there is such a thing.) Anyway, He was poisoned three years after the fall of his kingdom. Legend says that he wrote a poem which displeased the emperor of the time, so he got poisoned.



He might have made a terrible king, but I really like his poems, which are all very beautiful, and very sad. I don’t suppose I did a good job. He’s words really flow when in Chinese, it’s hard to explain, but they are very very beautiful and lonely. I wonder how much of his emotions I was able to convey in the translation?

I wonder how many of you actually read all that stuff?
Am I being waaaay too boring? Maybe I should just drop the thread?
 
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I just got done reading all that you wrote so far. It's fascinating, not boring! Am I right that the Song Dynasty is the same that also gets called the Sung Dynasty? The dynasty during which the story "The Water Margin" takes place?
 
Yes, it is also the Sung Dynasty. I think that's when the "Water Margin" took place, though I am not sure as I have never read that book. (and to call myself a students of Chinese Litersture... the shame of it!)
 
Well, if I'm not mistaken, at the time "The Water Margin" was written, it was looked upon like a cheap paperback novel by the "serious" Chinese writers of the period.
 
(You guys should all just learn Chinese so I don’t need to translate. :mad: j/k)

I'd love that, but it would take a while... ;)

I don’t suppose I did a good job. He’s words really flow when in Chinese, it’s hard to explain, but they are very very beautiful and lonely. I wonder how much of his emotions I was able to convey in the translation?

I don't know Chinese to say, but I think it was a lovely poem, really. It's never possible to translate the exact same emotion from one language to the other, but one can get pretty close. And the background helps a lot, too! This is a great idea, Lossëndil! Please, keep on!
 
Finally! The second poem. This is by one of my favorite poets (at least top three on my list). He also happens to be THE most famous Chinese poet ever to live. Well, at least to non-experts. His name is Li Bai, or sometimes known as Li Po. So, I hope you enjoy this.

Dinking Beneath the Moon (1)

A pot of wine among the flowers…
I drink alone, without family or friend.
I toast the moon, inviting it,
Together with my shadow,
We are a company of three.
Yet the moon savors not wine,
And my shadow follows me in vain.
But for a moment we shall join,
Enjoying the spring like times. (2)
I sing as the moon paces above,
I dance as my shadow flutters.
We gather merrily while still sober,
Yet when drunk we must part.
Forever we join in loveless friendship, (3)
Promising to meet on the Silver River. (4)
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Footnotes:

(1) The actual title would be Dinking Beneath the Moon Alone. But that’s too clumsy, though it was only four characters in Chinese. Li Bai wrote a group of five poems to this title, and the one I posted is only the first poem of the group.

(2) This sentence is an interesting one. In the poem, the word “spring” could mean both happy times or the actual season. Some argued that it indicated the time of writing the poem, that is, on a spring night. In that case, the sentence would mean “Enjoying the spring days to their full.” Others say that “spring” only meant fine times, happy times, if so, it should be “Enjoying the good times to their full.” Of course, it probably has both meanings, so I don’t see what the argument is about.

(3) Again, this sentence has two interpretations. “Forever we join in feelingless friendship” would be the most accurate translation, I suppose. The word “feelingless” (yes, I know it’s not the most correct English) can have two meanings.

It could be a Taoist term, meaning a very high stage of serenity. In this case, Li Bai meant that he has already achieved that serenity and the silly little worries no longer bother him. He is beyond worldly worries. Of course he was not, and everyone knows it, he was only trying to comfort himself. Poets are always doing that, pretending to forget their sorrows even when it actually hurt a lot. So in Chin. Lit. class, we often say, “this sentence shows that life is short as a dream, and nothing lasts etc, so the poet no longer feels sorrow or whatever he’s feeling. However, that sentence, or the fact that… tells us that he is still upset over whatever, or he still misses home… …” In this case, Li Bai was saying that he was no longer troubled, but by the fact that his friendship was with the moon and shadows, you could see how lonely he was.
(By Taoism, I don’t mean the religion, which is all a bunch of nonsense. I mean the philosophy from which the religion grew, which is also quite a bit of nonsense, though there are its good parts. The main Taoist idea was not to interrupt the natural flow. We should live naturally, to let things happen as they will when they will. Basically, don’t do anything active. If you get thrown in prison, so what? It’s all worldly things, be natural, let things flow their flow. Taoism is trying to achieve ultimate re-union with nature.)

Back on topic, “feelingless” could also mean “feelingless.” In this case it would mean a friendship without feeling, or without love, which wouldn’t be a true friendship, would it? And that would lead back to the loneliness of the poem.

(4) The Silver River is one of the many Chinese names for the Milky Way. Actually, this poem used another name, which I am unable to translate. The name used by Li Bai probably meant something like “the cloudy river far away.”



A little background?
Li Bai (701 to 762 AD) lived in the Tang Dynasty. In fact, he lived at the peak of the dynasty, when everything was flourishing. He was a very very talented man. In his younger days, he went traveling with a bunch of Taoist, like the heroes of Kung Fu novels, fighting bad guys and things like that. In fact, there was once a TV show featuring Li Bai as a Kung Fu hero instead of a poet. He grew up in a rich family, which may be the reason of him being such a proud guy. At least he seems proud to me. The usual way of becoming an official would be to take the Civil Service Exams, but Li refused to take the exams. He said that he would wait to be invited by the government. Indeed, he was called in 742 AD (when he was 42), and became an official in the palace. However, he wasn’t too happy with his job. He was to write poems for the emperor on certain occasions, but what he really wanted was to gain political power. (Basically all Chinese poets wanted to work in the government, they wanted to have a chance to serve their nation. I know it sounds weird, but that’s a fact. So when poets get fired, they get real upset about being unable to be useful, unable to serve the nation.) Anyway, Li Bai wasn’t the easiest person to get along with, especially since he was upset at not getting a good job. He is also famous for drinking a lot. Even five year olds know that Li Bai loves wine. For these reasons, he got fired two years later. People believe this is a poem written just after he was fired. He is known as Shi Xian, something like The Immortal Poet.



I really like his poems. Some poets write very neat and tidy poems, toiling to make every word perfect. I admire them for their effort, but the poems are too neat, too formal in a way. Li Bai’s poems are like himself, rarely following the common rules, always different, and they always seem so unrestrained. Of course, he is very proud and too focused on wine (rare is the poet that does not love wine!), but I admire his poems.



Just to be fair, I’ll give you another translation, by Witter Bynner, with the help of Kiang Kang-hu:

Drinking Alone With the Moon

From a pot of wine among the flower
I drank alone. There was no one with me—
Till, raising my cup, I asked the bright moon
To bring me my shadow and make us three.
Alas, the moon was unable to drink
And my shadow tagged me vacantly;
But still for a while I had these friends
To cheer me through the end of spring…
I sang. The moon encouraged me.
I danced. My shadow tumbled after.
As long as I knew, we were boon companions.
And then I was drunk, and we lost one another.
…Shall goodwill ever be secure?
I watched the long road of the River of Stars.​
 
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That was a poignant poem for me to read. The scene of solitude was too much like ME, now...except that I almost never consume alcohol.
 
I'm sorry if I brought back any sad memories.
I love poems, though I must admit that I share few of the poets' feelings. I guess I'm still too young to have experienced much loss.
I remember one of the Song poems I've read, which went something like this:

"When young I knew not the tastes of sorrow,
yet I climbed the towers.
I climbed the towers,
And spoke of sorrow in my poems.

Now I have known all the forms of sadness,
I wish to speak them, but do not.
I wish to speak them, but do not,
Instead I tell of how fine the weather is."

That was a very rough translation, but it gets the meaning. I suppose it's something like that. I love those sad poems, yet I hardly understand them. I suppose that when I am older, I will appreciate the light joyful poems more.
 
This is one of my five favorite poems, but I was never able to translate it. It was so short (just 22 characters), but the meanings and feelings are so, I dunno, huge? Immense? Anyway, I came across this translation one day, and I thought, hey, it’s not perfect, but it’s pretty good. So I decided to share it. (Again, it’s the work of Mr. Bynner and Mr. Kiang)

"On a Gate-Tower at Yu-chou"

Where, before me, are the ages that have gone?
And where, behind me, are the coming generations?
I think of heaven and earth, without limit, without end,
And I am all alone and my tears fall down.​

A little background?
Well, I don’t know much about this poet. His name is Chen Zi’ang, and he lived in the early Tang Dynasty (Quite a while before Li Bai).

In the chaotic years before the Tang Dynasty, poetry declined quite some ways. People focused on the rhyme and meter too much. (well, not exactly meter, Chinese poetry ignores meter, but it’s close enough) Poems lacked content and emotions. Poets focused on writing very neat and tidy poems, striving to make every word perfect, which is not a bad thing in itself, but the main point was that they ignored the content. I don’t think I’m doing a very good job explaining here. Very roughly, you could divide poetry into two kinds… No, that wouldn’t do. Well, there are poems which speak of pretty flowers or nice scenery or love between couples or the traveler missing home etc. And there are also poems which speak of how great the nation is, or how the poet mourns the decline of the emperor, or how the poet wishes to serve the nation but cannot, or how the foreign tribes are invading etc. It’s kind of like the pop songs nowadays, there are too many love songs. In the same way, poems before the Tang Dynasty, and even in early Tang, concentrated too much on flowers and missing home and things like that. (In Chinese we might call them the flowery poems) That’s not bad in itself, but in a way, the poems lacked a straightforwardness, a heroic spirit. Anyway, I hope you get the picture.

Back to Chen Zi’ang. He lived in the early Tang Dynasty, when people were writing poems which were too neat and tidy, so he tried quite hard to bring back straightforwardness to poetry, he tried writing poems which did not focus on meter or rhyme too much. He tried putting some actual content, some actual emotion into his work. As you can see in his poem, it starts with a very broad view, which is almost a trade mark for hao fang poetry. (poetry with heroic spirit, referring to the poems and poets in the Tang Dynasty of that certain style, the ones which write about the nation or have less restrained poems. Li Bai is one such poet, though people usually classify him as a poet of romance.)

As I was saying, Chen strived to bring back straightforward poems. It was not a great success, and most people still followed the trend to write flowery poems (as opposed to hao fang poems). Still, Chen did make a mark, and inspired a few later poets of the hao fang style. The poem I posted is his most famous piece of work.


EDIT: I made a mistake here. Sorry. :(
*redirecting readers*
Read this.
 
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All of this is interesting to me, but in particular--did you say RHYME? That would be the first indication I've had that poetry in East Asian languages used rhyme. Not that I can read any East Asian languages.
 
Yes, Chinese poetry has rhyme. You could basically say that Chinese poetry needs rhyme. Of all the Chinese poems I’ve read (not including modern poems, which have no respect for rhyme), only two do not rhyme. One of them was the "On a Gate-Tower at Yu-chou." In the chaotic period after the Three Kingdoms, writing was divided into two kinds. One was called “wen,” meaning “expression of feeling with rhyme.” The other was “bi,” meaning rhyme-less necessary writing, e.g. letters, or historic records. You could see how important rhyme is in Chinese writing.

Each dynasty had its own rules about rhyming. Of course, you don’t need to follow them, but most poems did. In the earlier dynasties, rhyming was quite free. You could change the rhyme halfway through a poem, and rhyme was just based quite loosely on pronunciation. But in later dynasties, poets took rhyming really seriously. I’ll explain the basic rule for “new poems” of the Tang dynasty to give you an idea. In the Tang Dynasty (618-907 A.D.), poems were divided into the “new poems” of their time, and the “ancient poems,” which did not follow the new rules. “Ancient poems” were written freely, with basically no restriction, but “new poems” had lots of rules. Both flourished. In “new poems,” you had to use to same rhyme through out thee poem. You could go:

……..Sam
……..ham
……..lamb
……..Pam

But you were not allowed to go:
……..same
……..game
……..can
……..Dan

See, the rhyme changed halfway through, which is not allowed in “new poems” of the Tang Dynasty. The definition of rhyme was also quite strict. Chinese, at least in Cantonese, has nine tones (or you could say six, I’ll get to this later). The nine tones were divided into two groups, which I will call the flats and the sharps. (Not a great translation, but I can’t find any official translations, so I’ll stick to this for now) In “new poems”, you can’t use any flats for the rhyming in a sharp poem. It’s so hard to explain in English, as English has no tones. In a loose definition, two words may rhyme, indeed, they end in the same pronunciation. But the tone may be slightly different. So if one word is a sharp tone, you can not use it with a flat tone, even if they actually rhyme. Here’s an example, which may give you an idea.

Her name is Pam,
And she likes ham.
His name is Sam,
Does he like lamb?

See, Pam, ham, Sam and lamb rhyme. But because the last line is a question, you sort of have a rising tone for the word lamb. The tone is different, so you can not use it for the same poem. Of course, this rule only applies to the “new poems” of the Tang Dynasty. There were several other types of poems at the time, so there was some variation. Some might think that using the same tones for the whole poem might sound a little boring, but since Chinese (Cantonese at least) has nine tones, there can be quite a lot of variation in the rhyme.

Just one last note on the number of tones we have. Mandarin has four tones only. Cantonese has nine tones, though my dad insists that there are only six. That is because we have six basic tones, and three extra tones for words ending in a glottal stop. But the three extra tones are actually just the same as the basic tones, except that they apply to the words with a glottal stop, while the basic tones do not. So you could say that there are only six tones. Am I just being confusing?
 
Thank you for the "tangy" treat. :) I was aware of tonal elements in Asian languages. It must play havoc writing lyrics for singing, since the melody might rise in pitch where you need a word that's supposed to drop in pitch.
 
Opps! I think I have an apology to make. I suppose I was studying Song poems at the time, so I messed up on quite a few facts in the background of Cheng Zi’ang. Here’s an abridged (and correct) version.

In early Tang, people focused on writing about love and missing home and other things like that. Cheng did not like it too much, so he tried changing the style, and wrote some quite strong poems. (Is strong the right word here?) It did not have too much of an impact at the time, but it paved the way for later poets, e.g. Li Bai. At the peak of the Tang Dynasty, (right before the fall), heroic poems were extremely popular. But some time after the An Shi Rebellion, in the late Tang Dynasty, heroic poems sort of declined. Poets returned to writing soft gentle poems, though heroic poems still had their part. So it was not a complete turnabout.

So the mistake I made was that flowery poems and hao fang poems were actually used to refer the different styles of Song poems, not Tang poems. Of course, both dynasties had their great, bold poems and soft, gentle poems. But you use different terms for poems of different dynasties.


Yes, it is a tough job writing Chinese songs. Mandarin songs are a lot easier, as there are only four tones. English, of course, is the easiest. Of course, I have no experience of writing any songs, but that’s what the singers say too. I guess they know what they’re talking about. :p
 
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duo xie (many thanks)

Lossëndil,
many thanks for sharing what you are learning -- beautiful imagery!
My mother has a copy of this poem by Li Bai hanging in her living room (in Chinese) but since my Chinese is so poor, I only got a very sketchy impression of the dreaminess and loneliness. Your notes were very helpful.
Blessings,
Benisse
 
I'm really glad I was helpful. :)
I guess that you are familiar with Mandarin (or Putonghua)? Where do you live? Your Location says Jiazhou, which could mean California, right? Just ignore me if you don't feel like answering the questions. I'm just curious.
I'm Chinese and I am currently living in Hong Kong. :)
You could call me SG if you like.
By the way, I can't really make out what it says on or banner. What does it say?
 
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Well, here's my very favorite poem. It was a tough jobtranslating it, and I have to thank my cousin for all her help and suggestions. Thanks. :)

Here goes, it's still far from perfect, but I guess that's all I can do.


“Remembering the Fair Lady . Reflecting on Ancient Times at Chibi” (1)

The River (2) flows east, washing away the talent of ages past.
On the west of the ancient fort, they say, lies the Three Kingdoms, Zhou-lang, and the battle of Chibi. (3)
The stones of the cliffs climb to reach the sky,
The crashing waves of the river split the earth,
Throwing up foam like a thousand drifts of snow.
Like a painting are the hills and river…
How many heroes gone in a blink of time?

Thinking back to the days of Master Jade, (4)
When Maiden Qiao was first married. (5)
How bright was his bearing:
The feathered fan, the silk turban… (6)
Between his laughing and his speaking,
In flying ash and billowing smoke,
The masts and oars were destroyed by his command. (7)
My thoughts traveling in ancient times, so sentimental…
They laugh, at my white hair acquired so early. (8)
What is life but a dream? (9)
A toast, to the River, and her moon.​


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Footnotes:

(1) This is a poem of the Song Dynasty. Like “The Joy of Meeting”, it was also written to music. “Remembering the Fair Lady” is the title of the tune, while the title “Reflecting on Ancient Times at Chibi” was added by the poet, which is the actual name of the poem. Just a note, “Reflecting on Ancient Times at Chibi” was only four characters in Chinese.

(2) Refers to the Yangtze River.

(3) This needs a little historic background. The Three Kingdoms was a period in Chinese History, usually said to be around 200 AD to 280 AD. The number of years are not certain, as everyone has a different definition on when it started. Anyway, it was the last years of the Han Dynasty (202BC-220AD), the king was a kid and not very good at ruling the country, so the Prime Minister Cao Cao held all the power. Two warlords down south weren’t quite happy, one was Liu Bei, in the south west, and the other was Sun Quan, who controlled the south east. The three kept fighting each other, thus, the Three Kingdoms. (technically, Cao Cao died before it started, but Liu and Sun were fighting his sons, so that’s not much of a problem)

Zhou-lang was a scholar strategist of that time, who served Sun. He was known as a great strategist. Sadly, his talent is always overshadowed by Zhuge Liang, who served Liu. (Any 3-year-old in China could tell you who Zhuge Liang was) Anyway, Zhou-lang’s name is Zhou Yu, (Zhou being the family name, and Yu being his name, meaning the light of jade), lang was a common title referring to men, which is not used anymore. Zhou was also known as Master Jade, see footnote (5) if youu like.

Chibi was a famous battle fought at 208AD. The Sun camp and the Liu camp joined hands to fight Cao. Cao was defeated by Zhou’s great strategies, so Chibi is known as Zhou’s great victory. (Though the novels often say that it was Zhuge’s effort that saved the South from destruction of the Cao army) Anyway, the poem points out “as they say.” The poet was actually nowhere near the site of the battle, and he knew it too, he simply wanted to express himself, so he accepted the saying nonetheless. (By the way, there’s a relatively new movie called Red Cliff, i.e. Chibi, about the battle. It’s actually pretty good if you ignore the blood and don’t mind the fighting too much. )

(4) (Skip this if you want, you don’t need to know) In ancient times, people had two names. At least males did, some girls did as well, but not too many. Boys were give a name at birth, which is the ming. They were given a second name when they came of age (20 for boys and 15 for girls), which is called the zi, also known as a courtesy name. The ming and the zi were often related, take Mister Zhou for example, his ming was Yu, meaning the light of jade. His zi was Gong-Jing. Gong, which is a common title for males, and Jing, meaning beautiful jade. There are a bunch of rules on when to use the ming and when to use the zi, which I will skip. Chinese people have basically stopped using zi for 100 years by now, though there are still a few old writers who still have one. I wish I had one.

(5) Maiden Qiao, actually known as Little Qiao, but that does not sound nice so I took the liberty of changing it. She was the wife of Zhou. Qiao was her family name, her sister was known as Elder Qiao, who married Sun Quan’s elder brother.

(6) Silk turban can also be translated as silk scarf.
The whole phrase (including the feathered fan) refers to the ease and natural poise of a scholar strategist, that is, Zhou Yu. (basically a direct quote from the New Age Chinese English Dictionary), Though this phrase is more commonly used to refer to Zhuge.

(7) I found these three lines quite had to translate. It should actually go something like “Between his laughs and his words, the masts and oars destroyed in flying ash and billowing smoke.” However, I am told that that was quite unclear. It actually refers to the battle of Chibi, when Cao’s ships were defeated, more specifically burned, by Zhou’s brilliant strategic skills. This was viewed as Zhou’s greatest victory.
(I really liked those lines, which portray Zhou as a talented strategist, so cool and in charge, you could almost even say charming. )

(8) Chinese poetry neglects pronouns. (Remember Li Bai’s poem? I had to put in basically all the pronouns!) In here, the word “they” was only implied, not referring to anyone in particular.

(9) I took the liberty of making this a question, instead of the statement it originally was.

A little back ground?
Su Shi (1037-1101AD), one of my favorite poets, lived in the Song Dynasty. He is also the most well known poet of that period. Like the Tang Dynasty, poems can roughly be divided into two groups. (I guess you are now hopelessly confused about the Tang and Song Dynasty, sorry about that. :o ) Anyway, Su Shi is a representative of the hao fang style. He managed to basically revolutionize poetry of the Song Dynasty. He and his father and brother were known as “The Three Su” (Su’s the family name), they were also three of “The Eight Great Writers of Prose in the Tang and Song Dynasties.” I haven’t read much of his prose, but I love his poems.

In 1097, because of different rumors and conflict between two groups of politics, Su Shi was exiled to Huangzhou, Hubei. I shouldn’t really use the word “exile,” as he was only demoted to an unimportant position. But as I’ve said before, all those poets are real fussy about their jobs. (See footnote 3 and background of “Drinking Beneath the Moon” for more details if you like) This poem was written two years after the demotion, and Su Shi was still unhappy about it occasionally. In the poem he speaks of Zhou Yu, the great strategist of the Three Kingdoms. You could see that Su Shi really admired him. Also, Su Shi was expressing his desire to be able to serve his nation, as Zhou Yu did. Su Shi desired to be able to do a great deed like Zhou Yu did, and serve the nation. Yet while Zhou gained his victory over Cao’s army at the age of 34, Su Shi was already 47, with no record of any noteworthy deed. Also, being demoted to Huangzhou basically took away any chance of doing anything. Thus he calls himself sentimental. So by admiring and praising Zhou, Su Shi was also lamenting his inability to do anything useful and serve his country. In the end he comforts himself by saying that life is no more than a dream. So many ambitions and laments, yet with no one to lend a listening ear, Su Shi could only toast the moon, the eternal companion of the lonely.




There, that's it. What did you think?
 
Jiazhou

...Your Location says Jiazhou, which could mean California, right?
...
By the way, I can't really make out what it says on or banner. What does it say?

Hi SG
1. You are right on my location.
2. The banner says "God bless you" in French. The words beneath it are my personal slogan: xin Yesu, xiang Yesu = "Believe Jesus, Be Like Jesus"
 
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