Are the Calormenes metaphorical?

oh yeah, i forgot. i cant believe i forgot that part. :D Tash could be any number of any gods, even though he was real. maybe he is a reflection of demons. i dont know.
 
Ok, what I'm about to say is not a confermed fact. I read a book by some muslims who converted to Christianity. These 2 fellows have come to believe that Allah is actually Saten. Of course, most the things he says he can do as a god are lies.

Although, even if Allah is not actually Saten himself, it has been speculated (and I think it quite possible) that many gods woshiped in other religions are actually demons and the religion they are the god of is the pack of lies they stand on to veer people away from the truth. So in that sense Allah could actually exist, so the callermons could actually represent the muslims.
 
You have to remember that the truth is in the eye of the beholder. I believe Christianity is the one true religion, but a Muslim may believe that HE is in the right.

CSL is a Christian, and I believe he was writting in a CHristian point of view. Do the Calormans represent the Muslims? Maybe. But to confirm that, we will have to look at what CSL thought a Muslim would act. If the Calormans are an acurate reflection of CSL's belief of what a Muslim is, that the Colarman probably do represent Muslims.
 
Welcome, Unleavened. I didn't see you post before. I had never heard that about Allah, from Muslims or anyone, either.

I don't think the Calormenes represent Muslims for another reason: in Narnia, things don't "represent" things in that way --Aslan is Jesus, he doesn't represent Jesus. And there aren't any "representations" of other faiths, you don't see any Hindus in there ...so why would Muslims be there?
 
because western europe is swarming with muslims? and the calomorens could represent many different parties. and what do you mean there arent any representations? it's an allegory. its all about the battles we face whether muslim or hindu. everything represents something. jesus wasn't an actual lion even though he is depicted as one. and i have no problem beleiving that a demon, maybe satan maybe not, did give muhammed his "revelation" because he said it was given to him by an angel. and demons are fallen angels. i have no doubt that they still look it.
 
I think you may have a point there Gryphon - there is every possibility that it could have been a demon who revealed the Qu'ran to Mohammed. But I would argue on the grounds of good relations between Christians and Muslims, that if we were to say that publicly, it would spark more controversy than if we said that Allah is simply a Muslims recognition that there is a God, but they havent quite grasped his true nature (which is the Christian God).

In this way, I would also argue against equating Calormene with Muslim - because that again could cause more division. I mean - what are the casting people gonna do when they cast HHB?? It would look quite racist if the bad guys were Middle Eastern and the good guys are white??
 
Gryphon said:
because western europe is swarming with muslims? and the calomorens could represent many different parties. and what do you mean there arent any representations? it's an allegory. its all about the battles we face whether muslim or hindu. everything represents something. jesus wasn't an actual lion even though he is depicted as one. and i have no problem beleiving that a demon, maybe satan maybe not, did give muhammed his "revelation" because he said it was given to him by an angel. and demons are fallen angels. i have no doubt that they still look it.
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I personally am not sure that Muhammed really was visited by an angel/demon... it may well be that he simply used the story of the angel to lend his argument some weight when he spread his religion amongst the tribes of southern saudi arabia. In my opinion, Islam has the feel of a man-made religion - it was originally a political, rather than a religious structure, used to give the seperate tribes of arabs a common purpose and unite them against the christian oppression which they had been facing for centuries. Indeed, Islam is still more a political than a religious structure - just look at Islamic states throughtout the middle east and parts of africa.

The point would extend to Mormonism as well, though for different reasons - the religion was essentially designed to appeal to the middle-class white american male. The idea was have lots of wives, blacks are inferior, jesus came over to america too, very appealing at the time - indeed appealing for certain types of people even today. Also note that the founder of Mormonism made alot of money from it.

About your point on Western Europe 'swarming' with Muslims... first of all, Eastern Europe contains just as many - look at Albania for an example. But also, I may be wrong about this of course, but I don't think there were as many muslims in Europe at the time of the books being written. Also, C.S Lewis stated himself that his books were not allegory - Aslan IS Jesus in his books.

I myself still doubt that Calormenes are a direct representation of Muslims... as other people have said, I think they've more to do with the romantic Arabian Nights imagery.
 
Johan 72109 said:
I personally am not sure that Muhammed really was visited by an angel/demon... it may well be that he simply used the story of the angel to lend his argument some weight when he spread his religion amongst the tribes of southern saudi arabia. In my opinion, Islam has the feel of a man-made religion - it was originally a political, rather than a religious structure, used to give the seperate tribes of arabs a common purpose and unite them against the christian oppression which they had been facing for centuries. Indeed, Islam is still more a political than a religious structure - just look at Islamic states throughtout the middle east and parts of africa.
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Also recognize that things that seem man made DO have spiritual forces behind them. That's what I believe anyway. If man "invents" something contrary to God's truth, Saten was probably in on it somehow.

Chew on this mentally for a bit. Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world. It poses a real threat to Christianity, more real than many religions. (That is as threatening as someting can be to the God of the universe.) I wouldn't put it past Lewis to figure this out and draw a bit of a parallel in his book even if it is not a direct parallel.

As for why the Callerman culture seem so majestic in the books, I have an alternate possiblility, not to say you are wrong. Just another look from a new angle. When I read the books (spacifically HHB and LB) I found that the contrast in the beauty in the callerman culture and the hidous thing they worshiped to be a little disturbing. Perhaps this was beauty was insterted to represent the contrast between the fasinating majesty and horrific deception in many pagan cultures.
 
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I found the representation of the Calormene in HHB and LB slightly different, too: LB being slightly more sinister and bloody in nature. The last book does seem to present Tash as the traditional pagan god, demanding blood sacrifices and exulting in death and destruction. I think (and I take back what I posted ages ago when I started this thread) the god of Calormene is the god of paganism and all things evil; LB relates Christianity's eventual triumph over it.
 
Gryphon said:
and what do you mean there arent any representations? it's an allegory. its all about the battles we face whether muslim or hindu. everything represents something.
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As to whether the stories "represented" things in our world, Lewis himself said:

"You are mistaken when you think that everything in the books "represents" something in this world. Things do that in The Pilgrim's Progress but I'm not writing in that way. I did not say to myself "Let us represent Jesus as He really is in our world by a Lion in Narnia": I said "Let us suppose that there were a land like Narnia and that the Son of God, as He became a Man in our world, became a Lion there, and then imagine what would happen."

That's what I meant about why should there be Muslims in Narnia if there are no Hindus or whatever; I don't think the Calormenes "represent" anyone in that sense. That they have an "Arabian Knights" kind of grandeur and mystery is of course obvious, but that doesn't mean they represent Arabic people -- I guess you could say the Pevensies "represent" Christian English children, but it's not that, they are Christian English children, but they are from our world and the Calormenes are not.
 
Just as it is foolish to beleave that Aslan and Tash are the same. Attempts by Muslims to make Allah and Jehovah the same God but different names is foolishness to any Christian. And history shows the Name "Allah" is of different origin than any Jewish influence. :eek:
 
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Whether the Calormen are directly compatable to Muslims is not CS Lewis's style, But Narnia and her surrounding kingdoms match the geography and cultures of Europe from England to the Mediterranean Sea with no English channel but a desert to replace it. :)
 
inkspot said:
As to whether the stories "represented" things in our world, Lewis himself said:

"You are mistaken when you think that everything in the books "represents" something in this world. Things do that in The Pilgrim's Progress but I'm not writing in that way. I did not say to myself "Let us represent Jesus as He really is in our world by a Lion in Narnia": I said "Let us suppose that there were a land like Narnia and that the Son of God, as He became a Man in our world, became a Lion there, and then imagine what would happen."

That's what I meant about why should there be Muslims in Narnia if there are no Hindus or whatever; I don't think the Calormenes "represent" anyone in that sense. That they have an "Arabian Knights" kind of grandeur and mystery is of course obvious, but that doesn't mean they represent Arabic people -- I guess you could say the Pevensies "represent" Christian English children, but it's not that, they are Christian English children, but they are from our world and the Calormenes are not.
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O Great and Wonderful INKSPOT,

I am so thrilled to have an ally with reference to TCON not being allegory! And one informed by the author himself! O joy! O splendour! O frabulation!

Come, let us reason together to stamp out this pernicious plague of allegorists! :D Or, at least, by opposing end their allegations and misunderstandings.

It is precisely this allegorical allegation that links specific recent acts or individuals or peoples to specific Narnians that does damage to the books and those holding the views! Calormenes symbolically represent those without knowledge of or belief in Jesus, not any specific peoples. And Calormenes by any description would fit some known earth analogue. Thus, Lewis was using a symbol and not an allegorical representation.
 
Thanks, Inked! But don't you know, I like to call CON and LOTR allegories just to nettle you!!! :D (Bad Inkspot! Bad.)

But I know they aren't. An allegory has a one-to-one correspondence to the thing it represents, yes? And clearly CON does not.

I agree with you in your post: Calormenes for us symbolize people who do not know or follow Christ.

But what do they symbolize for non-religious people, I wonder? What does any of it symbolize for someone who doesn't believe in Christ?
 
TimmyofOz said:
Just as it is foolish to beleave that Aslan and Tash are the same. Attempts by Muslims to make Allah and Jehovah the same God but different names is foolishness to any Christian. And history shows the Name "Allah" is of different origin than any Jewish influence. :eek:
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Mohammed was not out to create a new religion, he was trying to reform Judaism and Christianity. When Islam first started, they prayed in the direction of Jerusalem, not Mecca. During the Middle Ages, Islam was seen, by many, as a heretical sect of Christianity.
 
Jerusalam doesn't become really important to Islam for many years. Mohammed incorporated Judaism and Christian characters under an Arab God. Just as the tribes of Isreal made a Golden Cow and called it the LORD. Islam worships the Arab culture and it's God. Jerusalem is important becuase they conquered it 1300 years ago and what Isalm conquers they hold dear to. They wish to conquer the name of Jesus to make him just an Arab prophet. Mohammed reformed the religions of Arabia using Judaism and Christain characters. To call Allah the Islam name of JHWH is a straight from the mouth of Satan that Islam teaches.
 
As I learned in a different thread, there are so many sects of Islam today that we cannot make many generalities about the religion without being wrong on some score, so it is probably best not to debate it here until we all become experts, which I think would take a lifetime.

Regarding the origins of the faith, dunno if this adds any light, but here is what I read at http://re-xs.ucsm.ac.uk/gcsere/revision/big6/4.html:

Little is known about Muhammad's childhood. He was orphaned at the age of 6 and brought up by his uncle. As a child, he worked as a shepherd. He was taken on a caravan to Syria by his uncle at the age of 9 (or perhaps 12). Later, as a youth, he was employed as a camel driver on the trade routes between Syria and Arabia. Mohammed later managed caravans on behalf of merchants. He met people of different religious beliefs on his travels, and was able to observe and learn about Judaism, Christianity and the indigenous Pagan religions.

After marriage, he was able to spend more time in meditation. At the age of 40, (610 CE), he was visited in Mecca by the angel Gabriel. He developed the conviction that he had been ordained a Prophet and given the task of converting his countrymen from their pagan, polytheistic beliefs and what he regarded as moral decadence, idolatry, hedonism and materialism.

He met considerable opposition to his teachings. In 622 CE he moved north to Medina due to increasing persecution. The trek is known as the hegira . Here he was disappointed by the rejection of his message by the Jews. Through military activity and political negotiation, Mohammed became the most powerful leader in Arabia, and Islam was firmly established in the area ... Many do not look upon Islam as a new religion. They feel that it is in reality the faith taught by the ancient Prophets, Abraham, David, Moses and Jesus. Mohammed's role as the last of the Prophets was to formalize and clarify the faith and to purify it by removing foreign ideas that had been added in error.

It sounds like a combination of what Timmy and Green Knight are saying.

But I don't think they are Calormenes, anyway.
 
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