Are the Calormenes metaphorical?

[unleavened]

On subject, I don't think the calermenes' religion is a direct parallel to Islam at all. I think it has some similarities, but it also has similarities to other cultures relgions too. I think Lewis cleverly integrated several relgions into the Calermene culture. I posted on this a while back, if you care enough go ahead and find the post.

BTW, thanks Samven for that interesting artical. I can't say I agree with it, but I won't discuss it here, seeing as it's a little off the point. However, if you have anything to add, I'd be happy to communicate using PM. Understand that I don't mean to squash you or anything. I just want to the truth to be known.

 

[Wallis]

The Horse and His Boy has always been an interesting yet oddly "out of place" story for me. I've been doing some reading, and I'd like to share some insights (for me, at least).

One of the Bible's important leitmotifs centers around a desert. In the spiritual journey back to God, it was necessary for the Israelites to return to the desert, sojourn for a while, and then return to the "Land of Milk and Honey."

We find this leitmotif first in the Garden of Eden, where Adam and Eve are in perfect spiritual harmony. Then they fall from grace and are cast out into the "cold, cruel world."

We find that Abraham and Lot lived in a land that was very wealthy and abundant. But, a few hundred years later, Israel is enslaved by Egyptians, and it takes Moses to lead the people back to the Homeland. However, the Israelites must wander around the desert for forty years (a purification number) before they can return.

Then, when the Jews are allowed to return from their captivity, we find Jeremiah expressing the whole return as wandering back through the desert, as Jerusalem is described as a desolate ruin.

Using this leitmotif--that in our spiritual lives we move close to God, then fall away, and then crawl back to God--the desert is not seen as a barrier but as a purification process of our spiritual selves.

Bree and Hwin obviously wish to return to the "Land of Milk and Honey." Living under slavery (represented by the Calormenes) and apart from the Homeland (God's Kingdom), they will do anything to get back. Along with Bree and Hwin, Shasta is a young boy who was taken away from his Homeland and raised in Calormene--against his wishes you might say, although he did not have a choice. I could find a parallel with Joseph. And then there is Aravis, who desires something more than the life she has, which will eventually provide her with an enviable materialistic wonderland.

Their journey to break away from the materialistic bonds that keep them slaves, even if those bonds are only within their minds, is fraught with danger. Lewis did a good job of showing how doubt, fear, backsliding, and other obstacles tempt us from going into the desert to return to God. Yet, at the same time, Aslan (Christ) is with them all the way, even if His presence tends to terrorize them at times.

So, my new perspective, if you will, is that the Calormenes represent more of the world as viewed with materialistic eyes and the finite ability of the human brain to embrace one's existence. We find ourselves enslaved by the flesh. Yet, all the while, we yearn to release ourselves from this bondage and free our souls to fly back to the loving embrace of the Creator. In this, I believe that Lewis has succeeded: our beloved characters have passed through the desert and returned Home.

 

[DunadainofArrakis]

Welcome, Dunadain, I didn't see you post before. Your thoughts are very valid, and I had not thought of Jadis' ancestry connecting her to Satan (more clearly than Tash can be connected), but I can see what you mean.

Also, I don't think Gryphon meant to imply that Muslims think they are worshipping Satan or the devil. Rather, I think she meant that the angel who told Mohammed to worship God in this new way (Islam) might have actually been a demon who hoodwinked Mohammed into forming a religion that does not believe in Christ as Savior, which would, of course, leave them outside His saving power unless they rejected their Islamic faith and trusted Him. You can see why a demon would want to do this. (I mean, if you believe in Christ, you can see why His enemies would want to found a powerful religion that doesn't believe in Him ...)

Thank you for the kind welcoming inkspot. Let me just start off by saying that I agree with everything in Wallis’ post. There is a lot to lend to that kind of interpretation of the Horse and His Boy.

To go back to what was said earlier, after all of that stuff about Tash and Allah, let me just say that if they do make a movie for The Horse and His Boy or the Last Battle, that they should depict the Calormenes with turbans, scimitars, and camel jockeys if you will, and whatever else is associated with Middle Eastern society and culture. The Calormenes are a desert race that most closely resemble the Arabs and Persians.

What they should not do, however, is have the Calormenes shouting "Allahu Akbar" or even "Tash Akbar". That would be kind of funny, but wrong on so many levels.

To address the comments made by Gryphon concerning perceptions of the Prophet of Islam as having possibly received revelation from a "demon", let me just say I find that entire notion wholly (no pun intended) inaccurate.

I would have to question a demon (who, by definition of the word demon, is ill-intentioned) for having provided a man during the 7 century with the means to end the practice of idolatry in Arabia and in many other places, to bring men and women to the worship of one God (a.k.a the God of Abraham), to end racist practices, to end the practice of burying newborn daughters (which is something the Arabs did quite frequently before Islam), to tell his followers to respect Christ and his mother, and above all else, not to equate anyone with God even if he/she/it is of virgin birth and made many sacrifices for a noble cause (This is not the same as saying that Muslims don’t accept Christ as a protective and guiding force, because they do in a way, which will be mentioned later when I discuss his role in the Islamic prophecies concerning the Apocalypse).

To understand the Islamic perspective and how this could all possibly relate to the metaphorical meaning in the Chronicles, one has to talk to Muslims and read their books. I think that Lewis' story is primarily geared towards Christians, but Lewis himself had to have read at least some Islamic texts or heard something about Islam. You can't just say well I think that their Prophet had a demon whisper in his ear and Muslims don't accept Christ/Aslan and therefore Tash is Allah, i.e. the devil. You have to get the real story from the horse's mouth, or the Muslim mouth rather. I personally know and talk to a lot of Muslims, and it’s really interesting to hear what they have to say about their own beliefs. After having read a little on Islam, I do believe that Muslims accept Christ on at least some level. They regard Christ as being pure and perfect, having been a Prophet of God who continued and elaborated on the messages of his ancestors Abraham and Moses and all of the other biblical figures. They even believe that Christ was of virgin birth and that his mother Mary was pure and infallible. Christ for them is not the son of God just because of his virgin birth and sacrifices, and neither is Adam who didn't have a mother or a father. Christ was sent to make the Jewish people and other like-minded peoples think about the state that they were in and accept a new kind of teaching that would bring them closer to salvation, which relates to what Wallis was saying about mankind’s materialistic corruption and how they can be drawn closer to teachings of Aslan to achieve salvation.

Now, as Christ pertains to the eschatological events of the world of Narnia, an even greater understanding and appreciation of Muslims toward Aslan can be made. Muslims like Christians believe that Christ will be a major component in the army of God against the Anti-Christ, or the Messeeh ad-dajjal ('the imposter messiah) as they call him. In fact, Christ will be the one to strike the death blow to the Anti-Christ.

Furthermore, if we are talking about the Last Battle, then we are talking about the Apocalypse and are finally getting away from the idea that Tash is Allah. Tash has to be the anti-christ. Its clear from the Last Battle that there is confusion as to how people perceive the Tashlan character when in reality there will be a similar confusion in the way people will perceive Christ and the Anti-Christ, thinking one is the other and vice-versa. Ultimately the forces of Aslan triumph over Calormene as well as their deity and leader Tash. This is why I think that Aslan holds a similar kind of messianic force for Muslims as he does for Christians.

So despite all of these similarities between how Christians view Christ and Aslan and how Muslims view them, the main difference here does indeed concern Christ. Christians regard Christ as being the divine son of God while Muslims regard him as a pure and perfect Prophet sent by God, Allah, or whatever you want to call him. And to which view does Lewis cater to? It is most definitely the Christian one. But this doesn’t mean that Islam can’t factor into any of this.

 

[Parthian King]

I like what Prince of the West has indicated, and that is that the Calormenes are probably best described as pre-Islamic. Tash is an idol, and Muslims are definitely not into idols. So given that, the whole issue is sort of moot. Besides, there are a whole lot of Muslims today (Iranians, Pakistanis, and Indonesians, to name a "few") that are Muslim, but not Arab.

As for Muslims having some acceptance of Christ, that is an odd statement for me, since the Christ they accept is hardly the same, as you have noted, Dunadain (hope you don't mind the abbreviation). As Lewis said, we really only have three options for how we see Jesus Christ: Lord, Liar, or Lunatic. "Great Prophet" is not an option He grants us, and that's where Islam goes wrong, even in its most pacific forms.

 

[G.E. Boehm]

Though physically the Calormenes are very similar to the muslims I believe that its not all muslims. I believe that C.S. Lewis was looking more at the Ottoman Empire when they expanded with the wars. C.S. Lewis was really into old world history so I don't believe you can attach all muslims to the Calormenes. And in the last battle when Aslan said to the one Calormene solider that over all the years when he said in the name of Tash that he was really giving honor to Aslan there C.S. is bulding a bridge between the two similarities in Christianity and Islam. Though there is a main difference he reminded us that Christians and Muslims are alike in more ways. Look up Timur the Lame and you will see a number of similarities between the Prince and Timur.

 

[inkspot]

Welcome, GE. I didn't see you post before. I don't know if you can say that Tash as Allah is completely wrong because Lewis certainly did not intend for the Calormenes to resemble Muslims in one breath, and in the next say that the interplay between Emeth and Aslan is a bridge between Christianity and Islam in the next -- either Lewis intended a relationship to Islam with the Calormenes, or he didn't. You can't have it both ways, if I understand what you are saying -- perhaps I don't.

I personally agree with PK that the Calormenes worship an idol (Tash) and so their religion cannot be contrasted with Islam at all, as Islam completely rejects idol worship.

But I do have more questions for Dunadain: are you, by chance, Islamic? you do not believe a demon would have inspired Mohammed to found Islam, because of all the good things Islam did for the region -- why would a demon want to stop things like the sacrifice of babies, etc. that were going on pre-Islam, you wonder. I can answer that, but first I wonder if you think it was indeed an angel that delivered the message to Mohammed?

If so, I don't want to insult you or your faith at all. From a Christian perspective, I will say: a demon would be interested in stopping religions that were propagating evil at that time, if he could replace them with one that would last longer and deceive more people than the wicked worship of various idols or false gods was doing. Yes, those religions at that time may have been causing no amount of harm, but Islam, if it is wrong, is dooming millions today to eternal darkness, and still growing. So the demon might like to take short-term losses of wicked little sects in the Middle east in order to gain worldwide soul destruction. I don't imply this is what happened, but you can see how it would make sense, if it were a demon that deceived Mohammed?

And now ... Tash = Antichrist. I don't think so, at least in the evangelical Christian take on the end-times prophecies, that idiotic Puzzle in his lion skin represented the anti-Christ (it deceived people into believing it was the Christ, but then it commanded them to do the opposite of what Christ would have wanted) and the stupid ape was the false prophet mentioned in Scripture.

What do you think?

 

[DunadainofArrakis]

There are clear and convincing proofs as to why God, and not a demon, communicated the revelation to the Prophet of Islam. A person who claims to be the bearer of a mission from heaven and to have a message from God, to be in contact with another plane of existence, has to give the people a clear proof of that being the case. For the Prophets mentioned in the Quran and Bible, these proofs came in various forms and confirmed their claims of having received revelation and inspiration from God.

Many scholars say that these proofs depended on what was regarded as the most prominent and highly regarded science and body of knowledge for a given time period. For the time of Moses, the body of knowledge that was at its pinnacle was sorcery and magic. That is why Moses provided the people with that particular style of proof that made so many from amongst the Egyptians and Hebrews believe in his message. When Moses placed his staff on the floor in the court of Pharaoh and it turned into a snake, the Pharaoh’s magicians thought that it was a good magic trick that they could do themselves. But when Moses’ snake ate all of the magicians’ snakes, the people in the court (including the magicians) knew that Moses “magic” came from a higher source the likes of which no one had ever been witness to in that time period. According to the Islamic version of that story, those same magicians then converted to the religion of Moses, whereupon Pharaoh had them all executed because of his arrogance and desire for the magicians to regard him as the all-powerful authority in the universe. No one said that Moses’ power came from a demon, because there had never been a demon that had delivered a clear and convincing proof like that before nor could a demon ever do something like that. In the case of the Prophet of Islam, there is an even clearer and more convincing proof that his message was not given to him by a demon, which I will discuss later.

For the time of Christ, the body of knowledge that was considered to be at the pinnacle of human thought was medicine. That is why so many of Christ’s proofs deal with healing people like the lepers and the blind. He showed the medical authorities of his time period that God had an even higher form of medical knowledge that no one else possessed and that that power was something that Christ himself could tap into. Proofs like these are the reason why so many people during Christ’s time believed so strongly in his message. Again, it could not have been a demon responsible for Christ’s proof because no body of knowledge contained within the physical universe could produce something even close to what Christ was able to do, proving that his proof came from another world and had in fact come from the Highest power and authority, as Christ himself knew all along. Christ would have had a close spiritual proximity to the entity he was receiving revelation from, which means he himself would had to have known something about that entity and that it was in fact God.

Finally, during the 7th century in the region around Arabia, poetry was regarded as the highest form of knowledge and human thought, especially to the Arabs. When the Prophet began his mission of Islam, he started at the age of 40. He was well known amongst the people for his honesty and moral conduct, but was never known for his literary abilities as he had never participated in any literary or poetry contests, which were really important and popular in Arabia at that time. As the Prophet began to reveal the verses of the Quran to the people, the challenge was made that could potentially end the religion of Islam once and for all. This challenge was presented in the Quran:

002.023
And if you are in doubt as to that which We have revealed to Our servant, then produce a chapter like it and call on your witnesses besides Allah if you are truthful.
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But if you do (it) not and never shall you do (it), then be on your guard against the fire of which men and stones are the fuel; it is prepared for the unbelievers.

The Quran is in a literary style in and of itself. It isn’t poetry, nor is it prose, its just “Quran.” The first challenge was to write 10 chapters of the Quran, but no one could do that. Then the challenge for one chapter was made (the smallest chapter of the Quran is only 3 verses), and the Arab leaders thought that this was their best chance. When the Arabs were presented with this challenge by the Prophet, they met in councils to see how they could produce something in the style of the Quran so that they could put an end to this upstart religion. The greatest poets of Arabic in all of human history lived during this time period, so if anyone could do it, then someone from amongst these very groups of people would have been able to do it. There were many attempts made, and the story of one poet stands out from all the rest. There was an Arab poet named Labeed ibn Rabi’ah who was hailed as the greatest literary mind in Arabia. He was hired at the behest of the wealthy Arab pagans to produce a chapter of the Quran. All he requested was that they take care of his living expenses for a year and that he would do it. The Arab leaders agreed and he was off to it. When he was given text from the Quran, he began to marvel at its literary stature. After that, he abandoned his writing of poetry and converted to Islam. He never once again wrote poetry because in his mind it would be a disgrace so long as a text like the Quran existed. This story and other stories of Arab poets who were hired for the same purpose and who were not Muslim but then embraced Islam are very similar to the story of Moses and the magicians.

Many attempts throughout history were made to produce a chapter of the Quran. All of these attempts were not even close to meeting the challenge. In most cases, someone might have changed one or two words in a chapter and then said “There, I have done it!”, when the chapter they were trying to pass off as their own was essentially the same chapter found in the Quran. There is something about the unique style of the Quran that when people hear it, they will immediately start to pay attention to it, and that no one has ever been able to reproduce.

What actually proves beyond the shadow of a doubt that the Prophet did indeed receive revelation and inspiration from God and not a demon is the fact that he ascended into heaven during his life. In one of the earlier posts it was mentioned that maybe the Prophet was being honest and forthright with his revelation but that he didn’t know he was receiving revelation from a demon. The account of his ascension to the highest level of heaven while he was still alive completely refutes that claim. If the person who made that post will accept the Prophet being honest and forthright, then he must accept that the Prophet received revelation from God and God only because of this proof. The Prophet knew exactly who he was receiving revelation from because heaven, hell, and the throne of God were all shown to him. It is said that the angel Gabriel was guiding him on his ascent, and when they got to the seventh and final level of heaven, the angel Gabriel was incapable of proceeding upward, and thus only the Prophet went all the way up, whereupon he entered and took witness to the throne of God. This verse from the Quran confirms the ascent:

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Glory to (Allah) Who did take His servant for a Journey by night from the Sacred Mosque to the farthest Mosque, whose precincts We did bless,- in order that We might show him some of Our Signs: for He is the One Who heareth and seeth (all things).

Another interesting story related to this topic is about the Jinn, who could possibly be regarded as demons. These are the first 6 verses of a chapter in the Quran called Al Jinn or the “The Jinn”:
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Say: It has been revealed to me that a company of Jinns listened (to the Qur'an). They said, 'We have really heard a wonderful Recital!
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'It gives guidance to the Right, and we have believed therein: we shall not join (in worship) any (gods) with our Lord.
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'And Exalted is the Majesty of our Lord: He has taken neither a wife nor a son.
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'There were some foolish ones among us, who used to utter extravagant lies against Allah;
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'But we do think that no man or spirit should say aught that untrue against Allah.
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'True, there were persons among mankind who took shelter with persons among the Jinns, but they increased them in folly.

Here is a link for the rest of this chapter found in the Quran with 3 different English translations provided:
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/072.qmt.html#072.001

There are many traditionalists who believe that this group of Jinn believed in some form of Christianity because of verse 3. When they heard the Quran from the Prophet, the proof was clear to them that this Prophet represented the office of God and heaven. These Jinn had never heard anything like this before, as no Jinn or demon was capable of something like this. It seems that the accusation that the Prophet was in consultation with a demon has been around since the very inception of Islam, but it is one that has been refuted by clear arguments in the very beginning as well. If one were to argue that the Prophet was inspired by a demon, one could argue that the Torah and the Bible were demon-inspired as well using similar evidence and logic.

Now as to my own personal beliefs, there is still a lot about Judaism and Christianity that I need to learn about, but I think it is pretty obvious based on my posts what religion I am leaning towards. Again I hope I have not offended anyone’s beliefs with these posts. To all of the Christians, I respect Christ and I hope that one day I can reach even a fraction of his level of understanding and piety.

 

[PrinceOfTheWest]

The differences

The main difference between Christianity and Islam lies not in the style of teaching nor the avenue of appeal (i.e. sorcery in Moses time, healing in Jesus' etc. I think that a bit of a stretch, by the way, but I'll leave it alone), but in the persons of those delivering the message, and the effect on the followers. Though Islam holds that Jesus is a prophet, it maintains that he is one in a line of prophets preaching an ever-perfecting message that reached its pinnacle in the revelation to Muhammed. The Quran itself holds in several places that the disciples of Jesus said to him, "we are muslim" - i.e. submitted, in the sense that we are submitted to the message being delivered to us. (I wish I had the reference, but I don't have my copy with me.) The clear implication is that this was acceptable for them at that time, since it was the best that had been given, but now that a more perfect message had been delivered, they should become muslim to that.

On the other hand, Christianity maintains that Jesus was the incarnation of the eternally existent Second Person of the Trinity, who came not primarily to preach a message but to die to satisfy the just judgment of a holy God against human sin and rebellion. By means of the grace provided through that sacrifice, Jesus opened a way for his followers to be brought into the divine life (not to become divine themselves, mind you) as adopted children of God. We Christians do not say, "we are muslim", because that is the posture of a slave - a willing slave, certainly, of a benevolent Master, but a slave nonetheless. We say, "by God's grace, through the way opened by Jesus, we are adopted sons and daughters of God."

So the issue is far deeper than just a style of teaching or even a message. It lies in the identity of the messenger (Divine? Or just another good man?) and the nature of the mission (Just to deliver a perfected set of rules to which to submit? Or to open a way to a new kind of life?) See the first part of the Letter of Hebrews in the New Testament for an exposition of the difference between Jesus and all who had come before him.

 

[Parthian King]

On the other hand, Christianity maintains that Jesus was the incarnation of the eternally existent Second Person of the Trinity, who came not primarily to preach a message but to die to satisfy the just judgment of a holy God against human sin and rebellion. By means of the grace provided through that sacrifice, Jesus opened a way for his followers to be brought into the divine life (not to become divine themselves, mind you) as adopted children of God. We Christians do not say, "we are muslim", because that is the posture of a slave - a willing slave, certainly, of a benevolent Master, but a slave nonetheless. We say, "by God's grace, through the way opened by Jesus, we are adopted sons and daughters of God."

So the issue is far deeper than just a style of teaching or even a message. It lies in the identity of the messenger (Divine? Or just another good man?) and the nature of the mission (Just to deliver a perfected set of rules to which to submit? Or to open a way to a new kind of life?) See the first part of the Letter of Hebrews in the New Testament for an exposition of the difference between Jesus and all who had come before him.

I am reminded that in certain sections of Scripture (Acts 10-11, for one) certain stories and truths are repeated simply for emphasis' sake. Since I cannot improve on this, which Prince of the West has written, I simply repeat it, giving credit where credit is due.

Since this is really a website having to do with Lewis and his thought, I guess I'm still fishing for why we are discussing the particulars of Islam at all, though it hardly offends me. Lewis did not subscribe to Islam for the simple reason that it stands opposed in substance to orthodox Christianity. To what extent the Calormenes (or his reference to the "Saracen" in That Hideous Strength) may or may not refer to them may be debated, but wherever that discussion ends up, the rest of his words stand firmly against the tenets of Islam.

I repeat: We are not given the option of reducing Jesus Christ to the status of prophet. He claimed, "Before Abraham was, I AM" (John 8:58). That is, He is the God that always was. Either we buy it (I do), or we don't because we consider Jesus of Nazareth to be either insane or the devil himself. Other options are not granted us--this is one of Lewis' favorite maxims regarding the identity of Jesus Christ. To read the Gospels, and walk away admiring Jesus' piety and virtue, but not recognize His deity is to shred those documents at the most fundamental level, since all His virtues, teachings, and miracles are carefully woven together to point us to one inevitable conclusion: He is the unique Son of God, and Lamb of God. To come to any conclusion other than that means you've missed the point of His virtues and teachings entirely.

 

[sukapesta]

first of all i'd like to say that... wow, there are not a lot of muslims in this board, are there? it's interesting that now narnia's getting popular in indonesia (where i'm from) and i wonder how people are gonna think of the series if they know there's an interpretation that calormenes are supposed to represent muslims...

As for Muslims having some acceptance of Christ, that is an odd statement for me, since the Christ they accept is hardly the same, as you have noted, Dunadain (hope you don't mind the abbreviation). As Lewis said, we really only have three options for how we see Jesus Christ: Lord, Liar, or Lunatic. "Great Prophet" is not an option He grants us, and that's where Islam goes wrong, even in its most pacific forms.

ah but again, this is your belief and whether or not "great prophet" is an option is also your belief... i'm a muslim btw, and for muslims, jesus is a great prophet... i think it's difficult for non-muslims to comprehend how much we respect jesus the prophet... for me personally (a lot of muslims would argue me on this, if there were muslims on this board in the first place) muhammad is no greater than any other prophet, including jesus (meaning the jesus we muslims believe in, and the point here is we think of jesus as a totally different person... none of us can claim that the way the other person sees jesus is wrong), muhammad just happens to be the last...

being raised in a mixed-marriage family (my dad's christian) i grew up listening to my parents discussing religions (my dad's very educated on islam and so is my mom on christianity) and to be honest i agree with some of what christians believe in and disagree with some of what muslims believe in (mostly because muslims tend to read too much into the quran)... and i'm not saying this to argue with any of you; just expressing my opininon - actually honestly i don't see why because we believe one religion's teachings to be true, then ALL the teachings of the other religions are wrong... i don't know, this is why i'm not a very good muslim i guess (that and the fact that my parent's marriage is considered sinful in islam)

anyways, back to the original topic, when i read about the calormenes in HHB and LB, like someone said before in this thread, the image that came to mind were from pre-christianity persians, like the persians in that film "alexander"... and i don't know what lewis intended but i don't think any religious interpretation (and yes, the christian allegory in the series is so obvious to me) can overcome the fact that the reason narnia is so good simply is a captivating storyline...

 

[inkspot]

i don't think any religious interpretation (and yes, the christian allegory in the series is so obvious to me) can overcome the fact that the reason narnia is so good simply is a captivating storyline...

So true, Sukapesta! Welcome to the discussion, I didn't see you post before. There's so many new threads, I have not had time to look in everywhere, sorry I have missed you.

I think it's quite nice to have Muslims on the forum, as there are so many Christians and we are all the time agreeing with each other .... nah, we argue a lot amongst ourselves, too.

I dont mind when the threads wander off the subject of Narnia and we get into other topics that are interesting, so if you check back in, Sukapesta, please tell us why, in your family's mixed marriage, you chose to follow Islam rather than Christianity? Also, is your father an engaged Christian -- I mean, does he have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and focus on serving God and alllowing Christ's Spirit to live through him? Or is he sort of an "ethnic" or "cultural" Christian? Many people in America are Christian, but what they mean is the church they don't attend is a Christian church, and they are neither Islamic nor Muslim ...

Just curious. You don't have to answer if you think it's too personal.

 

[onlymystory]

I always thought the calormenes were more like sukapesta said and sort of pre-christianity persians. They just seem different than muslims to me. Arabic yes muslim no. Also, to follow a bit of what Parthianking said and to reference CS Lewis, early on in LWW, the professor tells Susan and Peter that if Lucy is not mad (which can be gathered by simply observing her), she is not lying (this because she is usually truthful and her story is rather difficult to make up), then she must be telling the truth. Its the same idea with Jesus. It is not so much that one is ignoring His deity by only allowing Him the status of a prophet or teacher, but that Jesus did not leave that option open. Jesus said He was God. So either He was lying, He was crazy, or He was telling the truth. It is difficult to imagine Him lying because of all the miracles He performed. He would have to be some kind of magician and there are many witnesses to Jesus character outside of the disciples and most agree that there is no sign of madness. So if He isn't lying or mad, He must be telling the truth. I also wonder at so many people being able to follow a man to the death if it was all a lie.
Finally, in response to sukapesta again, I don't think that we have to toss out all other religions' ideas. CS Lewis actually argues this point early on in Mere Christianity. The point is that while the idea of honoring your elders is a good characteristic of Confucianism, the key is that the faith is wrong. Certain actions and principles probably match very well with the Bible, but if they don't believe that Jesus is the only way to Heaven then it is a wrong religion. I know that many disagree with me especially in this age of relativism but ask yourself two things first, is there any religion out there that does not restrict those entering heaven/paradise? and secondly, if every religion is a path to God why is yours so special? If I don't believe that mine is the only way then there is no point in believing in it in the first place. I don't know how much sense that makes but I do like the direction this thread is taking. Its a good discussion.

 

[sukapesta]

hey, checking back in...

to cut the long story short, my brother and i were raised as muslims but we've attended christian schools our whole lives, it's a deal my parents made so we'd be educated in both religions (mainly because christians can't go to islamic schools and really, i ended up knowing more about the history of christianity than the history of islam), and we were asked to choose when i was around 12 (and again when i was 14 and 16 just to make sure) and both of us chose islam because it feels right... when we pray, or fast, or read the quran we just know that it's what we're supposed to do... there's no logical way to explain it, but that's religion i guess... but like i said as much as i love the religion, there are some things so-called high-ranked muslims out there are doing or saying that i don't agree with...

anyways, i think my father's a good christian... he goes to church every week, he doesn't drink, gamble, or smoke, he donates a percentage of his salary to the church (and another percentage indirectly to the mosque actually since my mom doesn't work), and every month the big family would get together and pray and sing and that kind of thing... i mean he has bad temper sometimes and he loves to shop, and obviously he doesn't preach about christianity in our family (he gets along really well with my mother's family), but overall he's a good christian i guess... he knows a lot about other religions yet he still believes in his faith and i respect him very much for that...

in response to onlymystory... again, i respect christianity a lot and i respect your beliefs, but we muslims feel that there is no one-hundred-percent proof that jesus claimed he was god... this conspiracy theory thing's getting a lot of attention now because of the da vinci code and whatnot, but this is what muslims have believed in all these years... then again, we might be wrong, or you might be wrong, it's just a matter of faith... and which religion is right or wrong is also a matter of faith, except that some people take it to the extreme unfortunately... and yeah i agree with you about the heaven/hell thing, in fact, islam is one of the most extremes when it comes to "infidels will burn in hell for all eternity"... like i said there are some things in islam that i don't personally believe in, but that's just a matter of interpretation... i don't wanna get too deep into my personal beliefs lest i should anger anyone (muslims especially) but that's how i was raised, with a very liberal, very tolerant view of religions i guess...

 

[inkspot]

Thanks! That is interesting, and I appreciate your answering. I wasn't asking was your dad a "good Christian," I am not sure what that is ... just whether it ws a cultural thing or a relationship with Jesus. Thank you for answering. More later.

 

[onlymystory]

I just wanted to clarify on Jesus claiming to be God. When Jesus is at court He is asked "Are you the son of God" Jesus replies "I am." I Am is a name used for God in the Old Testament and in that simple statement Jesus was saying that He was God. i appreciate hearing all your input though.

 

[Dr Tumnus]

In my opinion, Islam has the feel of a man-made religion - it was originally a political, rather than a religious structure, used to give the seperate tribes of arabs a common purpose and unite them against the christian oppression which they had been facing for centuries. Indeed, Islam is still more a political than a religious structure - just look at Islamic states throughtout the middle east and parts of africa.

I have been lurking on this message board for a while. I love the chronicles. I am an evangelical Christian and I think that the Calormenes represent any Eastern religion/cult. I am constantly ashamed by the many christians that expose their ignorance so readily. How can anyone claim to understand Islam or guess why it was created? Islam is similar to many religions in most respects. Most muslims do not seem to understand their own religion.

The Calormenes seem to be Turkic by description and from what I understand Turkey was a fascinating culture to many Westerners because it seemed to be the antithesis of Western culture. I think CSL used them for that purpose. It was no coincidence that when Edmund was sinning he asked for Turkish delight.

The Calormenes' religion has more elements of hinduism. I bet CSL thought that Islam was just a mixture of Christianity and random eastern beliefs (Islam was considered a Christian heresy for most of history). Tash is not like the god muslims worship, he was more like a hindu god.

As a christian I believe that the religion that muslims believe in is difficult to tackle. They actually have a historical basis for their beliefs. I cannot point at the Evanglical Christian community 500 years ago, but muslims can pinpoint their centers of belief throughout all their history. My religion is based on pure faith, it is impossible to prove. The Catholics seem like the true christians from a historical point of view.

To all the Christians that speak foolishly about the status of muslims and Jesus I would like to say read a history book.

 

[inkspot]

How can anyone claim to understand Islam or guess why it was created? Islam is similar to many religions in most respects. Most muslims do not seem to understand their own religion....To all the Christians that speak foolishly about the status of muslims and Jesus I would like to say read a history book.

Welcome to the discussion, Dr. Tumnus. Are you refuting Johan's assertion that Islam is more political than religious, or the idea that it could be a man-made religion as much as a spiritual revelation? I am surprised, if you are an evangelical Christian, that you believe Islam has supernatural (or I should say heavenly) origins. When you ask how we can guess why Islam was created, I think we could guess from a Christian viewpoint that it was created by the evil one to lead people astray by co-opting Jesus to the role of minor prophet so that the lost cannot recognize Him as Savior. I think, as secularists, we could guess that Mohammed created the religion because he wanted to unite his region and save his neighbors from the idolatrous practices they had fallen into, such as infant sacrifice. Either could be valid reasons for the creation of a religion, if we were guessing.

But I think Johan's assertion was valid, and he is a pretty erudite young man whom I imagine has read a history book or two in his time. Perhaps I misunderstood what you were saying in your post as regards Islam.

When Jesus is at court He is asked "Are you the son of God" Jesus replies "I am." I Am is a name used for God in the Old Testament and in that simple statement Jesus was saying that He was God.

I think Muslims believe that some of the New Testament Scripture has been corrupted, so I think they do not believe that Jesus claimed to be God. I think in the Koran, they have a record of Jesus claiming not to be God. Although i could be wrong about that.

 

[Parthian King]

Greetings Dr. Tumnus! Great observation about the Turkish Delight. I might add that the medium through which the satanic voice speaks in That Hideous Strength is the disembodied "Head of the Saracene." I also agree with you that the Carlormen probably do not represent the Muslims directly (there are, after all, Muslims of all kinds, not just Arab Muslims), but perhaps impressionistically in Lewis' mind the cultures and peoples who later became Muslim in our world. I guess I don't see the Hindu connection, and if we look at pre-Mohammedan Arabs it becomes unnecessary since they did worship such gods.

Beyond this, I'm with Inkspot. There are, believe it or not, Evangelical Christians who knew what was up in Christendom 500 years back, and draw their heritage fom it, and there are a good many Muslims who don't know what was up with their forefathers that far back. And we ought to be carefull really, about throwing about statements like "foolish," and "read some history books," when one's own post includes admissions of ignorance. Sometimes people have read books (perhaps even more than we), and decide on a point of view very different from our own. Does that make them foolish?

 

[Dr Tumnus]

I am surprised, if you are an evangelical Christian, that you believe Islam has supernatural (or I should say heavenly) origins. When you ask how we can guess why Islam was created, I think we could guess from a Christian viewpoint that it was created by the evil one to lead people astray by co-opting Jesus to the role of minor prophet so that the lost cannot recognize Him as Savior.

I never said Islam has supernatural origins. CSL describes the Calormene religion as obviously evil. In reality Islam is not obviously evil. To argue this is insane.

I quoted Johan because his assesment in that quote is not logical. As an Evangelical Christian I believe that salvation only comes through Jesus Christ. I also believe that other religions are followed as Christianity is followed. As we judge their religion they judge ours. Whether or not their religions were created by a demon or some lunatic is not relevant; discussing this is absurd.

There are, believe it or not, Evangelical Christians who knew what was up in Christendom 500 years back, and draw their heritage fom it, and there are a good many Muslims who don't know what was up with their forefathers that far back.

First of all a quick study of the history of Islam would prove that the god of pagan Arabs is not the same as Allah. Just look at the writings of Rabbi Moshe bin Maimon on Islamic monotheism. Second, the statement I quoted from Parthian King is disconnected from my assertion. Knowing the history of Christianity and providing evidence of the existence of an Evangelical Christian community 500 years ago are two separate things. Adolf Hitler drew his heritage out of his you know where but it did not make it valid.

The Calormenes could definitely include the Muslims but Calormenes does not equal Muslims. Pointing out the problems in other peoples' religions is not fruitful. Islam is a pretty sturdy religion. The Twelver Shia school of thought is extremely balanced, even though it is difficult to see beyond the political situation in Iran and Western biases. They do not believe in a four-armed god with a vulture's head called Tash.

 

[Johan 72109]

Hello Dr Tumnus!

I can see that I haven't exactly painted an entirely favourable picture of myself to you have I... My apologies - I am renowned for putting across a point badly...
I think you have slightly misunderstood me in some places. You appear to think that I believe Islam to be evil, that Calormenes do not refer to Muslims (I'm not sure whether you think that I believe this idea - I may have misunderstood), and that it is fruitless to discuss the origin of religions.
You'll be surprised to hear that I agree with you on every one of these points.

Never have I stated that Islam is evil - in fact my post was in reply to others that had come across as implying that it is (no doubt unintentionally). If you look among other threads referring to Islam, you will discover that I frequently am in disagreement with certain members - those who sometimes can come across as a little hostile towards it.
Upon the scrutinising of the origins of Islam, I would point out that I was not endeavoring to pick holes in it. My comment was in response to posts suggesting that the religion had in fact been started by a fallen angel. My proposal is perhaps not that unfounded on facts. There are three major possibilities as to the origin of Islam, so far as I can see - there may be more. As I've said before, my opinions are proved wrong with depressing regularity
Islam could have been started as per the Muslim view - the inspired word of God, given to Mohammed by the angel Gabriel. I didn't state this as, firstly, it would insult people's intelligence - it's obviously a possible (and highly valid) cause. Secondly, I figured I'd probably get something wrong, as usual, so it seemed best for a muslim to state it. And finally, as at the time there weren't any muslims involved in the thread to my knowledge, I assumed the comments were referring to christian attitudes towards Islam.
Islam could have been started by a fallen angel giving Mohammed a false religion - I was arguing against this, as it seemed possibly offensive, and didn't seem to fit in with the christian opinions of the sources of other religions.
Or it could have been started for political or social reasons like most other ideologies. This was not intended to be offensive. I obviously do not subscribe to the belief that Islam is inspired by God, as I am a christian. Thinking it to have been created for social or political reasons does not imply that it is evil - for the arab people, Islam was the best thing that could have happened. It strengthened them with a common belief, enabling them to forge the Ottoman empire, which in its day was incredibly powerful, and (for the time) benevolent. My sources for this opinion come from a mixture of history concerning the rise of the Ottoman Empire, and from ex-muslims who, despite no longer believing, still fervently love the culture and history of Islam, and have studied it in detail.

I agree, discussing origins of religions is not helpful - the above is merely to explain my position to you, and explain why I may have come across as offensive, when I did not intend to. Previously, I was responding to others in a discussion concerning christian attitudes towards the origins of Islam.

And your point about Calormenes not being Muslims - there we are in complete agreement, as you will no doubt see if you look through other threads about this.

Anyway... again, apologies if I seemed offensive and ignorant - you misunderstood me over my opinions (though, I am indeed ignorant in an awful lot of matters... )