Are the Emerald Witch and the White Witch the same person.

I agree that she could've been brought back and became the Emerald Witch, but I don't think that's what happened. Jadis seemed like the type of person who wouldn't want to hide her identity longer than she absolutely had to. Had the Emerald Witch been Jadis, I think she would've only used the Lady of the Green Kirtle(or whatever she's called) while in the presence of the sane prince(while he's in the chair) or when she was out above the ground.

As for her being Tash, I disagree. Aslan specifically mentioned Tash, which for some reason convinces me it's not Jadis in disguise. Tash was also around from the beginning of the Calormines(sp?), and we know that Jadis was somewhere up north in the land of the giants, on the opposite end of the world from the Calormines, so she wouldn't be able to institute herself as a 'god' in their minds.
 
I don't believe at all that Jadis survived and came back as anybody, but there is a kind of similarity between Jadis and Tash which is not present in the LotGK:

In LWW, Jadis has a traitor as her rightful prey; even Aslan agrees with this, and Mr Beaver says she was Aslan's executioner once upon a time.

In TLB, Aslan indicates Tash has a right to take the souls of evildoers as his prey. Aslan doesn't vanquish Tash, but sends him off with the souls that are his, as if he os sort of the executioner.

So if Jadis came back as anyone (which I don't think she did) I would think it were Tash and not the LotGK.
 
pianoplayer said:
As for her being Tash, I disagree. Aslan specifically mentioned Tash, which for some reason convinces me it's not Jadis in disguise. Tash was also around from the beginning of the Calormines(sp?), and we know that Jadis was somewhere up north in the land of the giants, on the opposite end of the world from the Calormines, so she wouldn't be able to institute herself as a 'god' in their minds.
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I doubt the LB would have worked had it been like a scooby doo episode:

-Tash caught up in his robes surrounded by everyone,

-Aslan rips off the mask

-Jeepers - it's Jadis the white witch

-And I would have gotten away with it if it werent for you pesky meddling kids

No, i think it would have required too much explanation to be crammed in at the end of the book and rather it is left up to the reader to decided whether they are on or different.

Also, I think I mentioned that Jadis may have taken the already present 'false god' Tash and embodied to fulfil her purpose for LB.

Inky - I like your points though I will still champion the cause of the Green Lady's inclusion! Her difference in personality is required in order to fulfil her purposes in SC. She needed to take a different tack in order to try to conquer Narnia once again.
 
But in the other two instances, Aslan acknowledges that there's some "right" for this being to the souls of traitors/evildoers ... there's no such acknowledgment for the Green Lady.
 
But nor does he say she doesn't.

Think about the occasions when Aslan makes these comments. Around his death and around the final destruction of the world. That statement is very relevant on those occasions - but there's no need for him to keep saying it all the time.
 
In LWW, Jadis has a traitor as her rightful prey; even Aslan agrees with this, and Mr Beaver says she was Aslan's executioner once upon a time.

In TLB, Aslan indicates Tash has a right to take the souls of evildoers as his prey. Aslan doesn't vanquish Tash, but sends him off with the souls that are his, as if he os sort of the executioner.

inky, this shows that Jadis was responsible for the living people while Tash was responsible for the souls. Jadis was not in any way supernatural in that she could have even seen the souls much less take them anywhere.

In fact, the nature of Tash precludes her from being him. If she had died, Tash would have taken her soul with him. If she hadn't died, then there was no way she would have been able to do what Tash did. If she was somewhere in the middle, as the Hag suggests, it means that unless someone actually does a spell that specifically calls up a dead witch, she is dead just the same.

MrBob
 
Okay, here's a question: how did Jadis wind up with the right to take and kill traitors anyway? Was it something she'd had in Charn, or did Aslan (or someone else?) give it to her after the events of MN? Or did it come with the apple?
 
That's actually a very good question, and I'm not sure that Lewis had an easy answer. The connection may be linked to her knowledge of the Deep Magic from the dawn of time, which she was present for as Lewis details in Nephew. Of course, her mistake at the Stone Table was due to her ignorance of the Deeper Magic, which predated her arrival and was woven into the fabric of Narnia.

I think the idea of Jadis being the Emperor's "executioner" was a poetic outburst by Mrs. Beaver and not to be taken as if it were an endowed title. My guess is that Lewis meant more that her knowledge of the workings of the Deep Magic gave her an "edge" whereby she could claim the blood of traitors. What she did with them might have varied - having a death sentence to hold over someone's head could sway their allegiance quite promptly.

Of course, that might also have been one of the loose ends that Lewis never quite tied down.
 
I don't understand how Jadis having claim over the traitor precludes her from having claim over their soul. Just because the extent isn't stated, doesn't mean it isn't meant in addition to it.

Also, the Hag never suggests Jadis was somewhere in the middle. In fact, her insinuation is that she is NOT dead.

Inky - what makes you say:

There's no way Aslan would have made use of Jadis after the way she came into the world and started stealing and destroying right away.
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Finally, I think some of you need lessons in debate etiquette. Or perhaps just manners...
 
Hehe - it's ok - but you know, you may think my ideas are stupid but that's what I think so there!

But I could never be upset with you Inky cos you're awesome :D
 
waterhogboy said:
Hehe - it's ok - but you know, you may think my ideas are stupid but that's what I think so there!

But I could never be upset with you Inky cos you're awesome :D
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And I could never think you're ideas are stupid cuz I think you're awesome.
:)
 
Josh said:
One of the reasons many think they are the same is cause some edition talks about Jadis saying: She is very dangerous, even in the Silver Chair.
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This is exactly why I thought they were the same. I did not realize until after reading the chronicles that Jadis and the Emerald Witch were never said to be the same by CS Lewis.

Does anyone remember in TMN when Jadis is saying how she had a sister who she killed or something? I think she was just saying that and it could be possible that The Lady of the Green Kirtle is actually Jadis sister.
 
No, the Green Witch is no sibling of Jadis. Jadis left all her relatives lying dead on the planet Charn. And for Jadis to be able to come back AS the Green Witch would be denying the omnipotence of Aslan, saying that He could no more keep her dead than she could keep Him dead. The very LAST thing Mr. Lewis ever intended was to imagine a cosmic dualism in which the supreme evil power could be EQUAL to the supreme good power.
 
I think Puddleglum grouped the White and Green Witches together by saying something about how "these Northern witches" had to be fought in every generation. They were the same kind of being, but Lewis didn't suggest that they were related or were the same person. (The edition that says the White and Green Witches are the same still irritates me.)

Makes you wonder, though, how the Green Witch entered Narnia in the first place. Did other evil people from various worlds get into Narnia after Jadis?
 
Yeah, that ignorant cover blurb has caused no end of confusion over the years - that and the fact that the BBC chose the same actress to play both Jadis and the Emerald Witch in their versions of the stories.

The question of where she came from is a good one, especially in light of the narrative comment (which is never attributed to a party) about "those Northern witches". Another intriguing thing: that Lewis never supplies a name for her.
 
Perhaps the Green Witch started out as a normal human in the Narnian world, and sold her soul to Tash in return for magic powers. This guess is not rendered impossible by her not mentioning Tash in dialogue in SC, since Tash (being a demon) doesn't care what people believe in provided they _don't_ believe in the true God.
 
There was someone on another Narnia forum that speculated the soul of the White Witch inhabited the Lady of the Green Kirtle, a form of possession.
 
The owls do comment of the Green Witch in reference to the White Witch, "And we think this may be some of the same crew." This, of course, is owlish speculation and not authoritative. I agree that the sequence of events in TMN would strongly militate against there actually being any blood relation between the two. However, as both come from the North (whereabouts is that quote from PotW? I was just looking for it but couldn't find it) there may have been some kind of community that Jadis built up around her before she invaded Narnia and which continued her tradition in the North.

Peeps
 
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