Are the Emerald Witch and the White Witch the same person.

That's true--thus the debate. ;) However he meant it, the same wording could be taken two different ways without any trouble. So we look for hints elsewhere . . . and they aren't conclusive either . . . so it really comes down to which way seems the likeliest to each person, because there's no cut-and-dried proof.
 
inkspot said:
Are you proposing if Lewis had intended for the witch to be dead, he would instead have written:

"The witch was dead. When her followers saw this concrete fact ..."

I mean ... sounds pretty much to me like she's dead, and he would have to go a long way round to prove to skeptics like Jonny that she was, in fact, dead. Would have sort of broken up the narrative ...
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::laughs:: What Dernhelm said, basically. Lewis used ambiguous wording, probably because what was important in that particular line was what the witch's followers thought. If he'd intended for her to be dead, he might have used the same language; if he'd intended us to be sure, he might have said something like "There, Son of Adam," Aslan said. "The Witch Jadis is dead; the apple was no match for my teeth. There may be other Sons of Adam who will choose to think she is still alive in years to come, so take notes." :p

I mean, y'all know my position here: there is no canon answer, and y'all are looking at best guesses, which means this is just the timeline arguments all over again. But I had to jump in when Sopespian pointed this line out, just to clarify.
 
Personally, I take the quote from the book to mean she's dead. But I see how people can believe she's still alive. I'll remember this discussion thread if ever I want to write a story that leaves massive confusion and debate in it's wake.:D
 
I think the only confusion comes from people overlaying external assumptions onto the story. There's no question that from the text alone, Jadis was killed and the Emerald Witch was a different person. The only confusion comes from some erroneous cover blurbs and people inserting assumptions and ideas from other mythological frameworks.
 
Animus Wyrmis said:
Technically, that only means her followers thought she was dead. For instance, if I wrote something like Our plan was simple. First John and I would have a massive fight in the garden. By dinner, we would be coldly ignoring each other; for breakfast we would conspicuously appear from different rooms. When Grandmother saw we had broken up, she would be so pleased that she would reinstate me in her will--the narration uses pretty much the same wording as Lewis, but it's clear that the characters haven't broken up; the narration explains what the grandmother sees, not what's really there. Likewise, Lewis could have easily said Once they saw the Lion lay dead on the table, the Witch's followers were assured of victory.

The passage tells you what the Witch's followers saw, but has no explanation for whether the witch was dead (or, I suppose, how dead she was) or whether she would stay that way.
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But the lion, like the witch, actually was dead before his resurrection. He had the power, delegated from the Emperor-over-the-sea, to rise again after death. Jadis, however, was not endowed with power greater than Aslan's, namely, the power of resurrection after death. By the way, if the White Witch is the Emerald Witch , is she Miraz, Tash, and Rabadash also?
 
So the question is, if Jadis is still alive in SC as the Emerald Witch, do Eustace, Rilian and Puddleglum really kill her, or does she pull the same stunt and go into hiding again? I mean, if Aslan can't kill her, why should three mere mortals be able to do so?

And if she isn't dead, why doesn't she appear in person later on? The first time she hit Narnia she pulled a direct takeover (i.e. by force with herself as visible leader). Assuming the Emeralid Witch is Jadis, she does the same thing in SC. Why doesn't she do it again later on?

Another question that occurs to me is: Would this debate even exist if some editor hadn't put in the character description of Jadis that she "is still very powerful in the Silver Chair" or whatever it is?
 
I would assume so--after all, the editor didn't pull that out of nowhere. My guess is that a lot of people, editor included, are pulling from a body of evidence that convinces them the Witch is still around.
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The editor did pull that out of nowhere, because there's no evidence that the witch is still around.
 
Oops! I'm so sorry, Animus! I meant to respond to your post and ended up editing it! One of the dangers of being a mod - inadvertently clicking the wrong button!
 
Olórin the Wise said:
So the question is, if Jadis is still alive in SC as the Emerald Witch, do Eustace, Rilian and Puddleglum really kill her, or does she pull the same stunt and go into hiding again? I mean, if Aslan can't kill her, why should three mere mortals be able to do so?

And if she isn't dead, why doesn't she appear in person later on? The first time she hit Narnia she pulled a direct takeover (i.e. by force with herself as visible leader). Assuming the Emeralid Witch is Jadis, she does the same thing in SC. Why doesn't she do it again later on?

Another question that occurs to me is: Would this debate even exist if some editor hadn't put in the character description of Jadis that she "is still very powerful in the Silver Chair" or whatever it is?
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Well this is why I have my really intense theory!! If we say that Jadis and Green Lady are the same it wouldnt make sense that the Green Lady dies at the end of SC - for the above reason. Instead it has to be that her 'spirit' or 'soul' or 'essence' or whatever remains until the end of Narnia. It's an all or nothing thing really!
 
so you think jadis body died for sure in lww, so in that quote where it says when her soldier saw her dead they deserted -- but you think her soul hung out in an ice block or something (like in pc film) -- and then she got a snake or green witch body later?

and in between she got to be tash also, like in tlb or?
 
Yes. Here are my reasons:

In PC, the hag says - who ever heard of a witch that really dies. Now though I would agree with Animus that we cant for certain say that the witch actually died, I don't think it matters if it was only her body that died. PC suggests that she can come back in some form - obv in the film this is made more real.

We also know Jadis went to north between MN and LWW and so it makes sense that after her defeat in LWW her remainy bit (which shall henceforth be her 'essence') would return to that part and eventually in some way resurface as the Green Lady. I often think of a voldemorty way of this happening.

I don't think all bad things in Narnia are Jadis as this is clearly not the case (all her minions) but her presence in the entire world gives all people the possibility to turn to evil ways (eg. Miraz, Shift etc.) after SC, it becomes more difficult to assert the theory though, inferentially, I would argue that, in LWW, WW has the power to control Narnia after the destruction of the tree of protection. Following her defeat, no other power can ever 'take' Narnia except the Telmarines (though I feel that was Aslan's work as Caspian was the rightful offspring of that line and Miraz a usurper). When Green LAdy tries in SC she uses a different technique - seduction and compulsion rather than fear and enchantment. Now, after her second defeat, I would imagine she would try to change her tack again in order to take control of Narnia a different way. A good choice would be to take the form of the god Tash - maybe never visibly but acting in accordance with the Calormenes thus deceiving them into thinking their deity was in fact real - which of course it essentially did become. This new technique uses deception and is mich more subtle and insidious than the other approaches, indeed the attamepts become more so throughout the books. I know there's no hard eveidence for this, but it makes sense to me, and my conviction that Jadis is both WW and Green Lady means she must continue to survive after SC, otherwise it falls flat as I mentioned above.
 
I agree--I think that if Jadis was still around in some way after LWW, she's still around in some way after SC.

As for why we never hear about her/witches--wouldn't it make sense to say that Narnia has faced hundreds of conflicts between MN and LB, but only a handful of them have required the assistance of the Friends of Narnia? In that case it would be perfectly natural for us only to meet her twice, as it's perfectly natural for us to only see, like, seven conflicts.

And I would guess, as I've said, that we'd still be having this conversation without the editor. S/he pulled that out of somewhere.
 
I often do wonder what Lewis would have change/clarified, etc., if he had had the time to re-write the Chronicles as he wished to. I expect he would have made some of the connections between books more clear. But who knows. Maybe someday we will find out. :)
 
So WHB, am I correct in taking you to mean that you are thinking of this as the same sort of situation as in LOTR, when the bad guy (Morgoth) got shoved out into the Void, but his spirit remained in Middle-Earth? Then she was responsible for the bad guys in the Last Battle, as well? That's an interesting idea, but if she were the main evil presence in the Narnian world, what happens to Tash? I thought that was sort of his job, that he was Aslan's opposite - in fact, Aslan himself says as much in the Last Battle, when he is talking about how Tash and he are as darkness and light to one another (I can't remember the quote exactly, but it's the same sort of thing). So if Jadis is also hanging around causing evil influences, what happens to Tash?
 
No that's exactly right. If Tash is considered the Anti-Aslan... where's he been throughout all the books. Unless he has appeared previously under different identities.

Whether the Calormenes 'actually' worshipped Tash or that Jadis took the form of their false God (which I think more likely) I think she and it are the same.
 
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