Are the Emerald Witch and the White Witch the same person.

Similar, certainly. Just not similar enough to warrant a theory that assumes her to be the overarching villain when there is little-to-no textual basis for it.

Last night I read a quote from Lewis that is particularly relevant (C. S. Lewis: A Complete Guide to His Life and Works, pg. 425):
You are mistaken when you think that everything in the books 'represents' something in this world. Things do that in The Pilgrim's Progress but I'm not writing in that way. I did not say to myself 'Let us represent Jesus as He really is in our world by a Lion in Narnia': I said 'Let us suppose that there were a land like Narnia and that the Son of God, as He became a Man in our world, becacme a Lion there, and then imagine what would have happened.' If you think about it, you will see that it is quite a different thing.
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And another:
But it is not, as some people think, an allegory. That is, I don't say 'Let us represent Christ as Aslan.' I say, 'Supposing there was a world like Narnia, and supposing, like ours, it needed redemption, let us imagine what sort of Incarnation and Passion and Resurrection Christ would have there.'
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If Lewis himself said that Aslan does not perfectly equal Jesus, then I feel quite confident in saying that Jadis is not Narnia's Satan. She had a similar, limited, role in two of the books, but that's as far as it goes.

I think that sometimes too much emphasis is put on the "symbolism" in the Narnia books, and people can forget that they are first, and foremost, fairy tales.
 
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That's a good point to remember, MRW. I've written a fair few articles comparing Narnian characters to Biblical figures, but I always make sure to mention that not everything's going to match up. Sure, there may be similarities, whether Lewis intended them or not, but they're not perfect allegories, and we shouldn't force them to be.

Not that it's not fun to speculate. ;)

Getting back to 'Are Jadis and the LotGK the same person,' I say no. Mostly because the tactics of the two are quite different.

Jadis, from what we see of her in MN and LWW, is very blatant and direct in her approach. She does use her share of deceit, but it much more outright and outspoken in her actions: her struggle with her sister, her demeanor in London in MN... I'm not quite sure what more I can say to make my meaning clear, but it's rather obvious that she's a not-so-nice type. Even Edmund has to convince himself that she's good, because deep down he knows she's not.

The LotGK, on the other hand, is far more subtle in her approach. It's actually easy to believe she's good: in fact, the first time I read SC I was quite shocked to see she was actually the villain of the story. She uses verbal sleight of hand, lowers defenses little by little and takes hold before you even realize what's happening. It's a slower and more sneaky process that she uses, quite different from Jadis's forceful and rather abrupt actions.

Sure, it's possible for Jadis to have changed her tactics in the time span between LWW and SC. But she has the chance to do so as well between MN and LWW (900 years or so by the timeline attributed to Lewis), and she doesn't. So, I'm inclined to say they're two separate people.

I think it might also be worth noting that it's said right in SC that 'a wicked Witch (doubtless the same kind as that White Witch who had brought the Great Winter on Narnia long ago) had contrived the whole thing.' Same kind doesn't mean same person. But I suppose you could read that either way, especially with a Dwarf's comment not long after. ("..those Northern Witches always mean the same thing, but in every age they have a different plan for getting it.")

Whoo, this has been a long post... But yeah, hopefully I've left somebody with something to think about. :p
 
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MRW said:
Similar, certainly. Just not similar enough to warrant a theory that assumes her to be the overarching villain when there is little-to-no textual basis for it.

Last night I read a quote from Lewis that is particularly relevant (C. S. Lewis: A Complete Guide to His Life and Works, pg. 425):


And another:


If Lewis himself said that Aslan does not perfectly equal Jesus, then I feel quite confident in saying that Jadis is not Narnia's Satan. She had a similar, limited, role in two of the books, but that's as far as it goes.

I think that sometimes too much emphasis is put on the "symbolism" in the Narnia books, and people can forget that they are first, and foremost, fairy tales.
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you're right MRV, we don't need to relate everything in Narnia to everything in our world, and the White witchwan't be the devil, she likes more the cold than the fire :p:p
 
(I think this is going to be my last post to this thread--I feel like we're going in circles, and also every time I show up on this site I lose, like, five hours of my life. I emerge going "Aha! Interesting thoughts about Narnia and life!" but then it's three in the morning and I have to start my homework. So I will be watching, just hopefully less so and only after I finish my Greek.)

I will repeat myself: I don't think there's any canonical explanation--plenty of quotes can be given to the effect that Jadis is really hard to kill, or has died, or can't die, or can be brought back, or that she acts like the LotGK, or that she doesn't (on a side note: you notice the witches always go for guys? Jadis is like, "Digory! Eat the apple! Be my king!" and the White Witch says, "Edmund, eat my food, be my prince," and the LotGK grabs Rilian); even Jadis and the White Witch don't have particularly consistent backstories. Where does she get the right to every traitor, or else Narnia gets destroyed? I was there at the start of Narnia, I never saw that. (Unless it's the apple? Then, would Digory have had the same right if he'd eaten it?) And Jadis and the White Witch are a little different in their tactics, too, so I suppose another millennium or so could bring her to the LotGK. So really there are lots of inconsistencies, and I very much canon is up for interpretation on the matter.

Personally, my pet theory is one witch, but that's mostly because I like to bring her back in fanfic. My other pet theory is that there were three witches--that the LotGK was one witch, and Jadis and the White Witch are not the same person, or at least not entirely; that Jadis made a deal with the devil, so to speak, and then lost anyway. But I admit that, while I have lots of canon evidence for these theories, I don't have anything that conclusively backs either (obviously, since I can support them both).

Maybe we just need a witches of Narnia ficathon?

EDIT: Is it possible that the White Witch was meant to be a Satan figure ("You traitors are mine! I know what your dad said!"), but that by the time Lewis got around to writing MN, he'd decided on Tash instead? Because Jadis isn't much of a Satan, really, but I think the case could be made for the White Witch if all we had was LWW. Does that even make sense?
 
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Jadis is like, "Digory! Eat the apple! Be my king!" and the White Witch says, "Edmund, eat my food, be my prince,"

sorry, but Jadis and the White Witch ARE the same person, on this thread it's about Jadis-White Witch vs Lady of the Green Kirtle

just to remind you, maybe you know that :eek:
 
Powl' said:
Jadis is like, "Digory! Eat the apple! Be my king!" and the White Witch says, "Edmund, eat my food, be my prince,"

sorry, but Jadis and the White Witch ARE the same person, on this thread it's about Jadis-White Witch vs Lady of the Green Kirtle

just to remind you, maybe you know that :eek:
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I do know that the characters seem to believe it, and that the White Witch wishes them to; I don't believe that the narrator (or Aslan, whose word I would accept as canon) actually mentions they're the same--though I think they are; it just struck me that it might be easier to write Jadis/White Witch instead of having to mention the books. Maybe I was wrong? But I think that it'd be a valid tangent anyway, if that's not an oxymoron. The have different backstories, and similar (but not identical) strategies; I think that looking at them can sort of give a jumping-off point to looking at the LotGK, however you see her. But I will do my best not to go off-topic too much. :D
 
well ask the othgers, but I'm pretty sure that they're the same, in every othr thread, we talk about Jadis as we talk about the White Witch, I mean we mention them as the same person, if you have a doubt, check in the books ;)
 
Powl' said:
well ask the othgers, but I'm pretty sure that they're the same, in every othr thread, we talk about Jadis as we talk about the White Witch, I mean we mention them as the same person, if you have a doubt, check in the books ;)
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They're still different characters in a sense, are they not? MN!Jadis behaves differently than LWW!Jadis does; if we're talking, saw, about Jadis's backstory--well, it's two different backstories: the one we get in LWW, and the one we get in MN. I guess I was thinking that it's like when you have a character who's one way in book one, and then ages fifty years and changes a lot for book two: you can't just say "Erin thought this"--it makes a little more sense to say "Young Erin thought this"; in that post, it made more sense in my head to differentiate them like that. (In the interest of full disclosure, I do sometimes dust off the theory that they are not entirely the same person; that Jadis did something or met someone, and that the two of them are the White Witch. But I'm certainly not trying to argue that's canon.)

And we are very much off topic! PM me if you want to take this further.
 
Animus Wyrmis said:
Is it possible that the White Witch was meant to be a Satan figure ("You traitors are mine! I know what your dad said!"), but that by the time Lewis got around to writing MN, he'd decided on Tash instead? Because Jadis isn't much of a Satan, really, but I think the case could be made for the White Witch if all we had was LWW. Does that even make sense?
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It makes perfect sense to me, as it's similar to the theory I've always held. Though, I never fully saw her as Satan, but more as a physical representation of sin. But, close enough. :)
 
Petraverd said:
That's a good point to remember, MRW. I've written a fair few articles comparing Narnian characters to Biblical figures, but I always make sure to mention that not everything's going to match up. Sure, there may be similarities, whether Lewis intended them or not, but they're not perfect allegories, and we shouldn't force them to be.
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There's kind of a discrepancy here. Not just you Petraverd but all who have made similar comments.

On one hand you're saying: Lewis didn't write an allegory so there's not supposed to be matching characters ie. there doesn't have to be a Satan figure in Narnia

On the other I'm hearing: Jadis isn't really very like Satan at all.

To me, this suggests Jadis is the Satan figure but has very different characteristics as she is not allegorical...
 
I'm not sure how that's a descrepancy. If there isn't an overarching Satan figure because Lewis wasn't writing true allegory, it follows that Jadis wouldn't fit the characteristics of an overarching Satan figure.
 
When Lewis says that the CoN are not allegorical, but a fantasy about what it would be like if God became incarnate in another creation, he doesn't mean that nothing in Narnia corresponds to our universe—he just means that you can't say things like "Aslan's sacrifice represents the Crucifixion." Nothing in Narnia represents anything in our world, but God is God just the same, so it isn't totally alien. Certain things are going to work in similar ways, though they aren't allegories of the things to which they are similar. (I have a feeling I did something strange to the grammar of that sentence. Sorry! :p)

My point is this: though Jadis doesn't represent Satan, she does perform a similar function. How similar a function . . . well, that is the question, isn't it?
 
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well Aslan represents good, and Jadis represents Evil, as God represents good and Satan represents Evil, doesn't mean Aslan represents God, and Jadis represents Evil, but the Chronicles of Narnia are children books and children need to know what's good, what's evil, that's my view.
 
Trust me, folks, all good ultimately traces itself back to God. But there is not one and only one source of evil.

First off, Lucifer chose evil and he had no devil to tempt him to do so.

Next some of the angels chose to follow Lucifer. That was their decision.

Adam and Eve decided to disobey God BEFORE mankind had fallen.

As far as I'm concerned, this is proof prima facie from the Bible that there is more than one kindling of sin. At the very least, those who would dispute this with me must admit that before Lucifer fell there was no incarnate representation of evil. In other words, evil had no celebrity spokesperson.

So while I would trace all goodness back ultimately to its source, I cannot be persuaded that all evil somehow hearks back to the same bloke in the red union suit.

There could be a thousand Satans, but only one God.
 
ok, we're all talking about good and evil (even myseldf) but the topic was about LotGK and Jadis being the same person or not, so why are ma talking about that, maybe I missed something :confused:
 
Because we were wondering, if Jadis corresponded to Satan in our world, then woudn't it have to be her in the Green Kirtle, because Satan in our world doesn't get killed and go away -- he keeps fighting back against God in our world, usng whatever tools he can, like ladies in green kirtles ...

But I agree with John, just as in our world every evil person isn't Satan, so in Narnia, not every evil villain is Jadis.
 
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