Deep Magic?.

Ah! A man who's read Williams. Odd going, eh? I can say that I've tried to read his Arthurian poetry, but to little avail. Of course, when T.S. Eliot admits that William's poetry is obscure, I don't feel too bad. I thought we had a thread around here that dealt with Williams and his novels, but I can't find it now. Still, he's quite good and very insightful. I liked the comment I read somewhere that Williams excelled at describing experiences that only happen once or twice in a person's life.

You seem to understand clearly the transposition question, and why it is dangerous. For Christ to substitute is one thing; for us to substitute for one another is missing the point. That's why in my tradition (RC), nobody can receive a sacrament on anyone else's behalf.
 
PrinceOfTheWest said:
You seem to understand clearly the transposition question, and why it is dangerous. For Christ to substitute is one thing; for us to substitute for one another is missing the point. That's why in my tradition (RC), nobody can receive a sacrament on anyone else's behalf.
Click to expand...
Ok, I need a little help on this one. Why is it so dangerous. If we ask for trasposition and ask for God's will to be done, He will protect us. We leave it up to him to "choose" if it happens, or if it's apropriate. No? Or is there more to it than I know...

I'm interested. I just want to know, not to shoot anyone down or anything.
 
"Transposition" in this context would be praying that God would allow you to take on another's suffering or burden in a direct sense. If you were very ill, I could indirectly share your burden by helping you with routine tasks, visiting you, etc. But to pray that I'd become sick in order for you to become well would be transposition. A more subtle form you see in certain circles is "prayer by proxy", e.g. praying for healing of a distant person by laying hands on the person right in front of you who might have a closer connection.

Transposition is theologically shaky because it exaults the role of the person. I have no power to heal anyone, only God can. Heck, it took Jesus' intervention to heal me. To pretend that I can step in and heal is a place for pride to creep in. It also downplay's Jesus' healing power and mission, with the "Jesus needs a little help" attitude. Furthermore, there's indication that under certain circumstances it just might work, at least at a psychological level.
 
unleavened said:
Ok, I need a little help on this one. Why is it so dangerous. If we ask for trasposition and ask for God's will to be done, He will protect us. We leave it up to him to "choose" if it happens, or if it's apropriate. No? Or is there more to it than I know...

I'm interested. I just want to know, not to shoot anyone down or anything.
Click to expand...
PrinceoftheWest has done admirably in answering your question, unleavened. There may be something for me to add, however.

To pray for transposition seems to ask God to remove the Armor with which He protects us. That statement needs support. Simply, Jesus has already done all the transposition required by human need. There's no point in transposing ourselves since Jesus has already done a much better job of it than we could ever do. Since Jesus' transposition was God/man doing it, it was eternal, and continues to be sufficient for all human need as long as the world endures. So to seek to do transposition is to potentially set ourselves OUTSIDE the protection of Jesus' blood.

That means we have exposed ourselves to attack by the enemy, for "we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against the spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places." (Eph. 6:12) Removing ourselves from the protection of Christ is a very dangerous and needless thing to do.

Just ahead of that it says "be strong in the Lord and in the power of His might." (Eph. 6:10) We don't have to do any of that transposition stuff because God's power can do so much more. Besides, human transposition presumes that the human doing it knows best what the needy person needs; but of course, it's God who knows best what that needy person needs most. Pray for God's leading - He'll do it.
 
hmmm...ok, I see why you say it's unecessary. Just ask for healing instead, right?

lmp, are you refering to transposition in the sense of taking on another's illness or taking on another's sins or...?

I'm not so sure I agree that's it's dangerous. I do see how it's a why bother, though. I can sorta see how you could say it's self-glorifying too, but it doesn't have to be. If I could have some more on how it's dangerous that would be apreciated.
 
unleavened said:
hmmm...ok, I see why you say it's unecessary. Just ask for healing instead, right?
Click to expand...
Yup. :)

lmp, are you refering to transposition in the sense of taking on another's illness or taking on another's sins or...?
Click to expand...
Both.

I'm not so sure I agree that's it's dangerous. I do see how it's a why bother, though. I can sorta see how you could say it's self-glorifying too, but it doesn't have to be. If I could have some more on how it's dangerous that would be apreciated.
Click to expand...
It's just that you're potentially opening yourself up to forces and powers while not in the protection of Christ. What I'm saying is that you are stepping outside of the authority Christ has given us, and therefore away from the Armor of God, and thereby exposing yourself unnecessarily to the darts of the enemy. It's just not wise, and probably disobedient, especially since God has shown us very clearly the best way to apply His power and love to our lives and that of others, in the church and outside it.
 
littlemanpoet has done a good job of explaining, unleavened. One thing I'd like to add is what I learned at a conference that touched on the topic: a person who embraces the concept of transposition doesn't understand the power of Christ's sacrifice and what it has already done, and misunderstands their own position in the spiritual economy of salvation and healing. I don't need to offer my own health in order for (say) my sister's health to improve. Christ has offered His sacrifice for all of us (by His stripes, we're healed, right?) If I think that I can add to that, I'm either misunderstanding the magnitude of His role, or overestimating mine - and either is a bad sign.

Apparently, a lot of times people get into transposition when they get desperate - e.g. a dearly loved one is suffering or dreadfully ill. "Let it be me instead of her!" (or whoever) becomes our cry. But this can be a refusal to accept the mystery of suffering and of God's plan for us all. In the case of illness, it can also be a refusal to accept the Ultimate Healing, which is resurrection. We may be healed of this or that sickness, but ultimately we will all die. It's on the far side of that when we receive the final, definitive healing.
 
I see your point. I'll have to process it a little more. Don't worry, I won't be praying for a transposition. I'm just not ready to say it's as dangerous as you say. But like I said, I have to process it more. I may come to the same conclusion as you two.
 
Back
Top