Ending Thoughts

[PrinceOfTheWest]

Actually, the worst case isn't having to explain to Aslan - it's just never seeing Him again, because Susan had "better things to do". She'd be simply reaping the fruit of her own choices.

 

[Malacandra]

Well, if really Aslan is a so wise, so powerful, so generous and "all mighty" caracter......so, he will forgive her for sure.

Eh, I suggest you consider the theological implications most carefully before you make with the winks. It's an unfortunate possibility that Susan's denial of Aslan's reality could lead directly to Aslan's last words to her being "I never knew you. Depart from Me."

...Why yes, this is a topic I think about a lot. What gave me away?


/me rips a page out of the dictionary, highlights "regent" and "regnant", and hands it to Chakal

 

[castel]

I suggest you consider the theological implications most carefully

Well, i prefer considering the philosophical and logical implications than any theological considerations for my part.

Each of us make of a story a different interpretation.

But if i was Susan and than one day Aslan dares say me something rude like :"I never knew you, Depart from Me", i honnestly think i'm going to respond only one answer to him : "screw you !! dirty furball !!"






(just a joke.......don't take it seriously ^^)

 

[Malacandra]

Well, i prefer considering the philosophical and logical implications than any theological considerations for my part.

Each of us make of a story a different interpretation.

But if i was Susan and than one day Aslan dares say me something rude like :"I never knew you, Depart from Me", i honnestly think i'm going to respond only one answer to him : "screw you !! dirty furball !!"

(just a joke.......don't take it seriously ^^)

Well, yanno, that line I put into Aslan's mouth is a direct Biblical quote, though it has to do with those who called themselves Christians but never clothed the naked, fed the hungry, sheltered the homeless, visited the prisoners, and so on... but I think it might cover those who directly experienced him and still chose to dismiss him as a childhood game.

But philosophy and logic aren't incompatible with theology, especially not at this juncture.

Seriously dude, you imagine Susan would be able to stand before Aslan in his glory and give him back-chat? Or talk of what he dared? Any of us would be doing well to stand on our feet and look him in the eye. And a little less flippancy and more thought might be wise.

 

[castel]

Seriously dude, you imagine Susan would be able to stand before Aslan in his glory and give him back-chat?

No.

And that's why i said that was a joke.

But that would be very fun !!

But philosophy and logic aren't incompatible with theology

hmmm..........

 

[Malacandra]

You maybe want to expand on that "hmmm........"? Or you think that the hmm says it all?

 

[PrinceOfTheWest]

Castel, you're going to have to adjust to the idea that on a forum devoted to C.S. Lewis, you're going to find a lot of people who take their faith seriously. You'll find that if you make shallow jests about Aslan, you will find yourself in the same position as Eomer making callow comments about Galadriel in the presence of Gimli the Dwarf - "you speak evil of that which is beyond the reach of your thought, and only little wit can excuse you."

It seems clear from your posts that you know essentially nothing about Christianity, and have swallowed whole and without question the propaganda that you have been fed. If you wish to discuss Christianity from an informed perspective, your should read at least the entire Chronicles of Narnia, and I would suggest Mere Christianity as well. Hopefully, you can then post without looking like such an ignorant fool.

 

[SailorSaturn13]

Castel, you're going to have to adjust to the idea that on a forum devoted to C.S. Lewis, you're going to find a lot of people who take their faith seriously. Y
It seems clear from your posts that you know essentially nothing about Christianity, and have swallowed whole and without question the propaganda that you have been fed. ... Hopefully, you can then post without looking like such an ignorant fool.

POTW, YOU are making yourself a fool by attacking jokes. You remind me of those people in Iran and middle East who burn embassies just because some magazine published Mohammed cartoons. God is surely too powerful and confident to be angered by harmless jokes.

Seriously dude, you imagine Susan would be able to stand before Aslan in his glory and give him back-chat? Or talk of what he dared?

Susan surely wouldn't say what Caspel proposed, simply because she isgentle and not aggressive. But actually I think she could, she has the courage to do it. However, she most likely won't for as soon as she sees him she would see she was wrong and admit it(unlike Rabadash). And she has a right to be angry of Aslan - he ripped her two times out of Narnia; isn't it not enough not to want to live this through again??! And he had ripped two her families off: Narnian and Earth fmily alike. She would have things to blame him, too.

It's an unfortunate possibility that Susan's denial of Aslan's reality could lead directly to Aslan's last words to her being "I never knew you. Depart from Me."

Which would mean a lie since he DID knew her.

Well, yanno, that line I put into Aslan's mouth is a direct Biblical quote, though it has to do with those who called themselves Christians but never clothed the naked, fed the hungry, sheltered the homeless, visited the prisoners, and so on... but I think it might cover those who directly experienced him and still chose to dismiss him as a childhood game.

No. Lewis admitted it himself in TLB: "He who speaks Tash and does good belongs to me, and he who speaks Aslan and does horrible things belongs to Tash(devil)" Point is how you LIVE, not what you believe. And here Susan might be better of , even if Lewis denied it.

 

[castel]

Princeofthewest, you know nothing about me and you're an idiot.

I know probably the Bible a lot better than you. (i have made theological studies)

And that's why, because i know so well the Bible and christian's dogma, than i can say i'm a proud atheist.

When i'm reading the wonderful books of mister Lewis, i see a great story.

Not a book full of religious stuff.

Just a great, wonderful, marvelous and magic story.

That's the way i like to read those books.

I know Lewis was a christian.

But i don't care.

That's not why i love his books.

Like i said to you before, i respect your faith.

Respect my convictions too, and please, please tries to take this just a little less seriously.

 

[The Dancing Lawn]

WHoa O.k. LAdies and gentleman lets play nicely.

 

[Malacandra]

Castel, you're going to have to adjust to the idea that on a forum devoted to C.S. Lewis, you're going to find a lot of people who take their faith seriously. Y
It seems clear from your posts that you know essentially nothing about Christianity, and have swallowed whole and without question the propaganda that you have been fed. ... Hopefully, you can then post without looking like such an ignorant fool.

POTW, YOU are making yourself a fool by attacking jokes. You remind me of those people in Iran and middle East who burn embassies just because some magazine published Mohammed cartoons. God is surely too powerful and confident to be angered by harmless jokes.

Right, because scolding someone for their flippancy - in a forum where it's likely to be seen that flippancy is being perpetrated solely to be annoying - is exactly the same as burning embassies over a cartoon published in an obscure newspaper. Behaviour like that is often known on the internet as "trolling" and some boards I've known clamp down on it mighty hard. The mere fact that something is "only a joke" doesn't excuse it; at least, not from the perpetrator being called to step up and elaborate on their PoV; it's not like anyone's going to get burned at the stake here. The issue is not altogether God's power and confidence but the state of mind of human beings.

Seriously dude, you imagine Susan would be able to stand before Aslan in his glory and give him back-chat? Or talk of what he dared?

Susan surely wouldn't say what Caspel proposed, simply because she is gentle and not aggressive. But actually I think she could, she has the courage to do it. However, she most likely won't for as soon as she sees him she would see she was wrong and admit it(unlike Rabadash). And she has a right to be angry of Aslan - he ripped her two times out of Narnia; isn't it not enough not to want to live this through again??! And he had ripped two her families off: Narnian and Earth fmily alike. She would have things to blame him, too.

At last an argument, of sorts. It is one thing to say that Susan has something to be upset about. It is quite another to speak of her as having the "right" to be angry. That she was shut out ("ripped"? Please!) from Narnia? Visits to Narnia were at Aslan's discretion, and he decided it was time for Susan and Peter to learn to know him in their own world. A little upset might be in order, but furiously sulking at Aslan for daring to cross her would be silly. (If she did. We're ascribing feelings and motivations to Susan that aren't justified by the text. All we know is that she chose to regard Narnia as a children's game. We have nothing whatever to suggest that this was because she was angry at Aslan for not letting her go back to Narnia.)

Then as to the loss of her family in a railway accident, what possible grounds has Susan for laying that at Aslan's door? She has just spent the last few years denying that any such person ever existed! But the accident itself - most railway accidents can be adequately explained by human greed and stupidity without any need to blame the Almighty. Whether it's management paying too much attention to profit and too little to safety, or trades unions refusing to allow incompetent employees to be fired, or even the paying public who shut their eyes to safety issues as long as the fares are kept low, there's a long list of people whose ways need to be mended before ever we curse God for his cruelty. And of course, if greedy and stupid humans always had the cushion of miraculous intervention by God to shield them (and innocent parties) from the consequences of their actions, would they not become ever more greedy and stupid?

This is, of course, an extremely brief overview of the whole problem of human pain and suffering. All I'm aiming to do is to demonstrate that Susan has no self-evident grounds to be mad at Aslan. As to courage, I'll pick that up in a later post if you like. This one has become quite an essay already.

It's an unfortunate possibility that Susan's denial of Aslan's reality could lead directly to Aslan's last words to her being "I never knew you. Depart from Me."

Which would mean a lie since he DID knew her.

Not a lie; just a reflection that the Susan he once knew no longer exists, and the Susan who stands before him is not she.

Well, yanno, that line I put into Aslan's mouth is a direct Biblical quote, though it has to do with those who called themselves Christians but never clothed the naked, fed the hungry, sheltered the homeless, visited the prisoners, and so on... but I think it might cover those who directly experienced him and still chose to dismiss him as a childhood game.

No. Lewis admitted it himself in TLB: "He who speaks Tash and does good belongs to me, and he who speaks Aslan and does horrible things belongs to Tash(devil)" Point is how you LIVE, not what you believe. And here Susan might be better of , even if Lewis denied it.

But it is what Susan was doing with her life that is the very issue here! Granted that it would be no better for her to go about praising Aslan in between, say, beating her children or defrauding her employer, and so on; but it is not as though she was living a blameless life of goodness and love at the same time as denying Aslan. The passage you efficiently paraphrase above comes from a very powerful section in which it is made clear that Emeth the Calormene had, without knowing it, been seeking Aslan all his life. He thought he was seeking Tash, but the image of Tash he had in mind - as holy, beautiful, and so unutterably admirable as to be worth dying a thousand deaths to see but once - and the service he sought to offer to Tash, were of the nature that can be accepted only by Aslan. The same can't be said of Susan, unfortunately. She had ample opportunity to mend her ways, but denying that there was anything wrong with what she was doing is not the way to start.

 

[EveningStar]

This is an extremely short piece that expresses exactly what I think happens to Susan. Though it's my work, not Lewis', I think it makes a lot of sense and explains my position well.

http://www.narniafans.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4308

Respectfully submitted.

John B.

 

[Malacandra]

This is an extremely short piece that expresses exactly what I think happens to Susan. Though it's my work, not Lewis', I think it makes a lot of sense and explains my position well.

http://www.narniafans.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4308

Respectfully submitted.

John B.

That's it, I'm definitely writing mine now!

 

[PrinceOfTheWest]

Hey, guys! Lighten up! I was just joking!

(What? That doesn't excuse everything?)

It would appear that any god is fair game as the butt of jokes except the Imperial Self. Nothing new there.

You needn't worry about me smashing windows and burning buildings. God is great enough to defend His own name without my assistance. My post was made out of fraternal concern for my fellow forum participants, for I know that if people make frivolous jokes about sacred matters, they end up - as the sort of people who make frivolous jokes about sacred matters.

All I know of you, castel, is what you've posted on these forums, and my statements stand. (Do you honestly think that propaganda is not spread in theological studies departments?) But rest assured, I respect you in the same manner that you respect my faith.

 

[castel]

By the way, i have juste make a joke about Aslan and Susan, oki ?

Not about your faith.

If you don't able to laugh about it, that's very sad for you.

Do you honestly think that propaganda is not spread in theological studies departments?

Less than the propaganda spread in the churchs by the priests every sunday morning.......

How someone with a brain can believe the world has been made in 7 days ?

Where is the logical in that ?

And adam and eve would be the father and the mother of all the humanity ? ^^

Lol, that's the real joke !!

And this one don't make me laugh.......

 

[EveningStar]

I find the assertion that there is nothing and no-one out there an act of faith not of pure emperical observation. Logically, scientifically, you must start with observations, and in this case the observation must be looking for God and not finding Him anywhere. You can only argue that you have seen no convincing evidence so far. You have not looked everywhere, and even if you had, how are you sure you know what you're looking for? You have not defined God either spiritually or by his observable characteristics. Proving that something does not exist is amazingly hard to do, even when you have limits. People even miss guns in suitcases when they know what they're looking for and limit the scope to a single load of baggage. It takes less faith to believe in the possibility of a God than to bank on the certainty of no God.

I felt the tip end of your previous message was a bit too smug and needed a bit of rounding off with the sandpaper of diversity. In addition, my personal opinion compels me to say your signature graphic about "Proud to be Athiest" seems a bit confrontational and provocative, especially since that is not your email sig but part of you chosen identity on an overwhelmingly conservative and overtly religious forum. I badly want you to feel welcome here, but as good general advice goes, you'll get a lot more drinks at the pub if you don't call men, "Hey, idiot!"

 

[Malacandra]

By the way, i have juste make a joke about Aslan and Susan, oki ?

Not about your faith.

If you don't able to laugh about it, that's very sad for you.

Since everyone, including you, knows very well that Aslan is Narnia's personification of Christ... don't come the innocent, sonny.

Less than the propaganda spread in the churchs by the priests every sunday morning.......

How someone with a brain can believe the world has been made in 7 days ?

Where is the logical in that ?

And adam and eve would be the father and the mother of all the humanity ? ^^

Lol, that's the real joke !!

And this one don't make me laugh.......

Have you considered posting in sentences and even paragraphs, O great student of logic, philosophy and theology? Then we can get onto whether everyone, or even a majority of people, in the Church believe in a literal seven-day Creation and descent from a historical Adam and Eve. (And if you like, you can explain - logically of course - why either view would be insupportable.) But at one sentence fragment every other line when you do condescend to answer, it might get wearing.

(By the way, is English your first language? I don't want to slam you for grammar and so on if it isn't.)

And you should know that a word like "propaganda" in this context is going to be viewed as highly inflammatory, thus weakening your case for not wanting to offend anyone, honestly.

 

[EveningStar]

It is obvious, Castel, that you do not understand what pain you can unintentionally inflict on people by "kidding" about their beliefs. Their religion is their view on how to live, but it's also their thoughts on what happens to them when they die and, even more horrifying, what happens to their loved ones. Wait till someone you absolutely can't live without dies. You won't find jokes about religion so funny then. I know that all too well.

An elderly couple that are a little overweight are having a lovely picnic by the stream. Along comes a jogger in the prime of his youth that looks at them and says, "Hey Pops, were you always fat, or only since you got old??" Their day is ruined. They may never come back to that park. Was it illegal? No. Irresponsible? Need I say it? A joke is not funny when it hurts people.

What is the Islamic cartoon flap, anyway? It's people frustrated with terrorism hitting all muslims below the belt as a way of letting off steam. And a lot of muslims looking to vent frustration on the West. This has never been about freedom of speech. It is about irresponsibility, the idea that whatever is legally permissible should be said loudly, often, and in your face just because it can be. Like calling an old fat bald man an old fat bald man just becuase he is....

 

[SailorSaturn13]

(in http://dnausers.d-n-a.net/cslewis/news18.html)

WHAT HAPPENED TO SUSAN?

Michel Faber has written a new Narnia story, entitled 'BRAVE AGAIN' explaining what happened to

Susan (see September 'C S Lewis News'). Positive comments from Gracia Fay Ellwood, Marilylle

Soveran, Keith Wilkerson, Rodney Loewen, Kirsten Edwards and Mary Stolzenbach. Shelly Pitman

complains 'It's not C. S. Lewis' and Angela Johnson is worried about the time sequence.

Kathryn Lindskoog comments-'I have in my computer a good little book about how Susan got back to

Narnia. Here is what happened. In 1980 a cloistered Carmelite nun in Flemington, New Jersey,

wrote an eighth chronicle of Narnia, telling what happened to Susan, and called it THE CENTAUR'S

CAVERN. (At least twice, C.S. Lewis encouraged readers to invent new tales of Narnia.) I found

her a Protestant publisher in Canada who wanted to bring it out. The altruistic plan was to make

it extremely clear that this was not by C. S. Lewis, and to donate all profits to the work of

Mother Teresa. I got Sheldon Vanauken to read the manuscript, and he offered to write a blurb.

Everyone involved felt sure that Lewis would have approved. But to her dismay, C. S. Lewis Pte.

turned her down flat. We were all surprised and deeply disappointed.'

David Lenander adds-'A gentleman (I think from New York) contacted me last year. He's written a

new Chronicle about Susan, for which he cannot get permission to publish.'

 

[SailorSaturn13]

Back to issues.

on an overwhelmingly conservative and overtly religious forum.

if you think so about yourself, I suggest you read THIS:
http://www.capalert.com/capreports/chroniclesofnarnia-lww.htm

This may help you to see yourself like I see you.
(Note: i don't share this opinion about film)

if people make frivolous jokes about sacred matters, they end up - as the sort of people who make frivolous jokes about sacred matters.

You mean, like Van Gogh?

When i'm reading the wonderful books of mister Lewis, i see a great story.

Not a book full of religious stuff.

Just a great, wonderful, marvelous and magic story.

Exactly. And LVV does seem greater than LB...