caspian the 10th
New member
i'm with you copperfox...fully agree
Handling the changes they made to PC and their effects on Dawn Treader
- Thread starter ~Lava~
- Start date
i'm with you copperfox...fully agree
caspian the 10th
New member
Wow, two people posting in a row who both agree with me...there's a first.
my bad....i dont actualy have a side in this...i grew up with the lewis books and loved tem......the script writers are to blame for any change to the spirit of the story and anything differant from the book....but on a whole the movie as a movie was OK...
caspian the 10th
New member
im actualy quite excited about this new movie i am....it will be a bit differant from the other 2 because fox have taken over from disney...and they are filming in my town......(well sort of...only 40 mins away) goldcoast and brisbane
MrBob
Well-known member
"I might remind everyone YET AGAIN, that PC wasn't written by Disney or Walden Media. It was written by the screenwriters, and approved by Adamson and Gresham. If you're going to blame somebody for mistakes, blame the people who actually are responsible, not the people who are responsible for marketing and publicity."
Everyone shares the blame. The writers get the most blame. The director and Gresham next for accepting the script. But Walden isn't blameless. They paid for the movie and could have demanded the script be more to their liking or they would fire the people and find new people who went with their vision.
MrBob
Everyone shares the blame. The writers get the most blame. The director and Gresham next for accepting the script. But Walden isn't blameless. They paid for the movie and could have demanded the script be more to their liking or they would fire the people and find new people who went with their vision.
MrBob
Truman
Banned
When did Lewis ever say that about his books?
See Joe, you've gotta actually prove your words before you claim them as fact. You haven't done that, and that's what boils my blood about the whole thing. I respect Inkspot's opinion of the movie. I respect MrBob's, ItW's, as well as many others. But you, I don't, because you assume and assert your points as if you were there with the writers, with the producers, with the directors, discussing and exchanging information about the second Narnia installment, "Prince Caspian."
What I do not respect are your claims of what Adamson and co. were thinking as they made decisions, your supposed "knowledge" of who and where the people were involved in the set up surrounding the script, and how certain aspects of the film were highlighted: i.e. Caspian playing "I'm too sexy for my chainmail." I'm sorry, was that supposed to be funny or sarcastic? I can't tell. If funny, tell it to your friends. If sarcastic, call up Ben Barnes and speak it to his ear; I dare you.
So Joe, please revert to what you do know as a viewer and a researcher (if you've done any). You weren't there. As far as Lewis' standing point of making "characters improve, becoming better people," take a look at the books! Lewis only implied such when he wrote specifically about someone changing, which applies only to Edmund, Eustace, and maybe even a little to Tirian. But you have to admit the Peter Lewis wrote was flat-out undynamic as a character. No soul, no spirit, no emotion; nothing. His virtues Lewis gave him never changed from LWW all the way to PC. That's one of the problems Lewis had with character development: only if the character is completely disagreeable do you make him better. If he's just as you enjoy you leave him alone. That's what Lewis did, and I, as a reader of many novels have come to resent that particular case. You want to make a character real, make him flawed. Flawed, not meaning "sinful" or "stupid," but flawed meaning "unsure," "charismatic," or "habitual." Give him quirks. What makes him tick? He had three books to write him in and failed each time to give any dynamism to his persona. And as a reader, I can tell you that that's what I saw, especially in Prince Caspian. Peter, in the book, has absolutely no change in him at all from LWW.
Now, whether you agree or disagree with the interpretation of Peter being angry for 1 minute of the 2 1/2 hour-long film (which I'd consider to be incredulously light), that's your decision. But I beg you, refrain from asserting that you know exactly what Lewis meant in every Narnia book he wrote, as well as what the screenwriters, producers, and director thought, because you sir do not.
That's all.
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If people don't like to hear what we have to say about the disastrous way the moviemakers handled the character of Peter, they should stop reading. Why should I stop saying what I think? Just because you don't want to hear it? That is not a good reason.
DestinyLies
Active member
Oh dear...my TDL big brothers are fighting.................
Truman
Banned
I didn't say you should stop (although I'd like it if you would
). Inky's right about that. By all means! Continue! 
Aravis Kenobi
New member
I'm not saying people should stop permanently, but it's gone a bit too far...besides, do you realize how much money it would have cost and how much time for Walden to scrap Adamson's hard work? No self-respecting studio would do something like that, unless you can provide examples. So I don't see the validity of that statement.
What are you talking about? who said anything about scrapping anything? If it's gone too far for you, you should stop reading. I do. I don't go to certain threads when I've had enough, but I certainly don't tell people in those threads to stop.
Aravis Kenobi
New member
MrBob said that Walden should have made them change the script to their liking, so let me explain why I have an issue with that:
First off, WAlden Media probably doesn't care how close the scripts are or aren't to the books; if they're good, quality films, able to be enjoyed by families, then it probably gets a go-ahead. Just because they're a Christian company does NOT mean they will make the mandates on the script. They leave that judgment to the writers, production and direction teams. I don't see how WAlden is in fact to blame for anything, if only wanting to release a good film (not good in the fans' eyes, but it's a good movie nonetheless, hence why I think everyone needs to stop looking at it through fan eyes).
Second, I don't believe Walden (or Disney for that matter) holds the rights to the Lewis estate. I.e. Adamson had to get a license in order to use Narnia, which he most likely got from Gresham. Gresham is part of the production team, therefore, he sees the script as it's being developed and as it's being filmed; if he didn't like it, I know for a fact he would have told Adamson his feelings, and Adamson may or may not have accomodated Gresham. None of us were there, so I don't think it's our place to judge either side.
And it's hard to stop reading when it is all over the forum, in pretty much all threads in this section. When LWW came out, I posted quite a bit in the films sections, but no more. I felt like there were no lovers of PC, only haters. Now, I know I've said that I don't mind the changes to PC and I don't, because PC the book was very, very, very boring to me. I was kinda dreading seein it on screen thinking that they would keep it the same, and if they had, PC would've bombed, and Dawn Treader most likely would not be in pre-production/filming. Most of the people i talked to prior to PC's release were planning on boycotting the film. Why? Rumors, suspicions...whatever you want to call it about the plot. It's ridiculous! It's like people telling me not to go see Star Trek because it diverted too much from the original storyline. So what?! I made a determination about both films not to judge until I had walked out of the theater. Every person who goes to see a book adaption in theaters needs to have that attitude. I don't hear anybody complainin about Harry Potter or Twilight. ANYBODY. It's sickening. In terms of Narnia and LotR, all films in question were good movies, whether they were close enough to the books or not. I don't hear anybody besides those who aren't "die-hard" fans give praise or credit to the movie. All I hear are complaints.
But, per your suggestion, I shall leave this thread and put everyone who's posted negatively on my ignore list. I suppose that would satisfy everybody in question. Or I could leave the forum again, which I've been considering a lot lately, however I do have people who count on me (see siggy) and I will not leave until I've let them read my sad little story. (by the way, can't you tell that this paragraph is drippin with sarcasm?)
First off, WAlden Media probably doesn't care how close the scripts are or aren't to the books; if they're good, quality films, able to be enjoyed by families, then it probably gets a go-ahead. Just because they're a Christian company does NOT mean they will make the mandates on the script. They leave that judgment to the writers, production and direction teams. I don't see how WAlden is in fact to blame for anything, if only wanting to release a good film (not good in the fans' eyes, but it's a good movie nonetheless, hence why I think everyone needs to stop looking at it through fan eyes).
Second, I don't believe Walden (or Disney for that matter) holds the rights to the Lewis estate. I.e. Adamson had to get a license in order to use Narnia, which he most likely got from Gresham. Gresham is part of the production team, therefore, he sees the script as it's being developed and as it's being filmed; if he didn't like it, I know for a fact he would have told Adamson his feelings, and Adamson may or may not have accomodated Gresham. None of us were there, so I don't think it's our place to judge either side.
And it's hard to stop reading when it is all over the forum, in pretty much all threads in this section. When LWW came out, I posted quite a bit in the films sections, but no more. I felt like there were no lovers of PC, only haters. Now, I know I've said that I don't mind the changes to PC and I don't, because PC the book was very, very, very boring to me. I was kinda dreading seein it on screen thinking that they would keep it the same, and if they had, PC would've bombed, and Dawn Treader most likely would not be in pre-production/filming. Most of the people i talked to prior to PC's release were planning on boycotting the film. Why? Rumors, suspicions...whatever you want to call it about the plot. It's ridiculous! It's like people telling me not to go see Star Trek because it diverted too much from the original storyline. So what?! I made a determination about both films not to judge until I had walked out of the theater. Every person who goes to see a book adaption in theaters needs to have that attitude. I don't hear anybody complainin about Harry Potter or Twilight. ANYBODY. It's sickening. In terms of Narnia and LotR, all films in question were good movies, whether they were close enough to the books or not. I don't hear anybody besides those who aren't "die-hard" fans give praise or credit to the movie. All I hear are complaints.
But, per your suggestion, I shall leave this thread and put everyone who's posted negatively on my ignore list. I suppose that would satisfy everybody in question. Or I could leave the forum again, which I've been considering a lot lately, however I do have people who count on me (see siggy) and I will not leave until I've let them read my sad little story. (by the way, can't you tell that this paragraph is drippin with sarcasm?
)
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Steph, I don't know what to think. You've been known to have a good head on your shoulders. There's no reason to leave just because ther are people who didn't like the PC film. And if there's a place to discuss it, this is surely it. I have a sneaking suspicion that the film and the fact that people won't think your way is not the reason you want to leave...I have a feeling it's a whole lot more than that. If you want to talk, you know where to find me. You know I care about you tons and bunches and always have.
Having said that, PC will be reiterated till the end of time and that's not a bad thing. You can post that you liked it till the end of time and that's not a bad thing. This is where we do that...and it's ok. There's no need for people to get over anything. For those who loved Lewis and all of his works for a good 30 years, it's hard to just downshift that fast. HP and Twilight haven't been around for half a century yet. You can't expect older people to just go with the changes that easily. It's not going to happen. We're just not wired that way. Even if people can handle the changes, you can bet they, at the very least did a few double takes at it all. Give the adults some credit already. Maybe there's some hidden wisdom in it all. The ability to carefully examine something and critique it....and then dig in the heels when change and acceptance are demanded can be good. In the Old Testament, if God's people had taken advantage of that skill more often things may have been different. Instead they ended up doing what the people around them wanted and ended up in exile. Sure, the PC films are different and not as important but there were treasures lost from book to film...great treasures. Pardon us while we mourn the loss. If this is the way we need to do it, then so be it. It will take a lot of time.
We're all aware of how Walden makes the films and hires the writers to do it. They can also fire them. We're aware of the work that Adamson and everyone else put into PC. We're aware that it was expensive and time consuming. One could not put together a better movie making team in my mind (apart from the screenwriters). I'm glad there will be new ones for VDT. I want to see what they'll come up with. But, by and by, I want to see the treasure that I've loved for over 30 years on screen. No more, no less. That's not a felony and there's no reason to leave or be rude because of it. I care about you.
As for Mr. Gresham, I have a unique point of view. I've discussed everything personally with him and I'm aware of how things work a lot better now. I can't discuss anything said which makes it hard to post because I can't explain a lot. I won't be criticizing him. I know where the fault lies and I know more of what he can and can't do. Most people don't get what his role is or how much control he does or doesn't have. Sadly, I'm not at liberty to explain it here. Sufficed to say, I don't blame him. I have a bit of a different outlook at times, but Doug is a gentleman and a friend. I think very highly of him. He's a dear heart and I'm thankful for the discussions. He challenges me often and makes me really think in ways that I hadn't before wether we're discussing Narnia or ministry or life...or all of the above at the same time.
What PC accomplished was a great split in the fan base that may wreck all for the franchise. Time will tell on that one. I think that Walden learned their lesson and I hope Fox will pick up on the lessons learned from the last 2 films. Maybe VDT will bring the fans back together. If it can do that, it will be worth every cent spent on it. But, that will all depend on the script. I wish I could read it now and tell them the outcome before the cash would be spent...but I can't.
Having said that, PC will be reiterated till the end of time and that's not a bad thing. You can post that you liked it till the end of time and that's not a bad thing. This is where we do that...and it's ok. There's no need for people to get over anything. For those who loved Lewis and all of his works for a good 30 years, it's hard to just downshift that fast. HP and Twilight haven't been around for half a century yet. You can't expect older people to just go with the changes that easily. It's not going to happen. We're just not wired that way. Even if people can handle the changes, you can bet they, at the very least did a few double takes at it all. Give the adults some credit already. Maybe there's some hidden wisdom in it all. The ability to carefully examine something and critique it....and then dig in the heels when change and acceptance are demanded can be good. In the Old Testament, if God's people had taken advantage of that skill more often things may have been different. Instead they ended up doing what the people around them wanted and ended up in exile. Sure, the PC films are different and not as important but there were treasures lost from book to film...great treasures. Pardon us while we mourn the loss. If this is the way we need to do it, then so be it. It will take a lot of time.
We're all aware of how Walden makes the films and hires the writers to do it. They can also fire them. We're aware of the work that Adamson and everyone else put into PC. We're aware that it was expensive and time consuming. One could not put together a better movie making team in my mind (apart from the screenwriters). I'm glad there will be new ones for VDT. I want to see what they'll come up with. But, by and by, I want to see the treasure that I've loved for over 30 years on screen. No more, no less. That's not a felony and there's no reason to leave or be rude because of it. I care about you.
As for Mr. Gresham, I have a unique point of view. I've discussed everything personally with him and I'm aware of how things work a lot better now. I can't discuss anything said which makes it hard to post because I can't explain a lot. I won't be criticizing him. I know where the fault lies and I know more of what he can and can't do. Most people don't get what his role is or how much control he does or doesn't have. Sadly, I'm not at liberty to explain it here. Sufficed to say, I don't blame him. I have a bit of a different outlook at times, but Doug is a gentleman and a friend. I think very highly of him. He's a dear heart and I'm thankful for the discussions. He challenges me often and makes me really think in ways that I hadn't before wether we're discussing Narnia or ministry or life...or all of the above at the same time.
What PC accomplished was a great split in the fan base that may wreck all for the franchise. Time will tell on that one. I think that Walden learned their lesson and I hope Fox will pick up on the lessons learned from the last 2 films. Maybe VDT will bring the fans back together. If it can do that, it will be worth every cent spent on it. But, that will all depend on the script. I wish I could read it now and tell them the outcome before the cash would be spent...but I can't.
Mrs Gil-Galad Took
New member
But, per your suggestion, I shall leave this thread and put everyone who's posted negatively on my ignore list. I suppose that would satisfy everybody in question. Or I could leave the forum again, which I've been considering a lot lately, however I do have people who count on me (see siggy) and I will not leave until I've let them read my sad little story. (by the way, can't you tell that this paragraph is drippin with sarcasm?
If you like PC or not is your own choice. I have not seen that many people complaining a lot. Actually there were more members liking Pc than haters. Or it must have been the Hollywood - hunks style? You post things which might offend other members but everytime someone is saying something you don't like you are jumping up and act almost in a rage. Then you threaten to leave the forum again. I think it's pretty harsh to put everybody who disagrees with you on an ignore list. We all disagree from time to time. If I have to add everybody who has disagreed with me -even once- on my ignore list I would never read anybody's comments anymore. We all disagree from time to time but to make it sound like a war is a bit over the top
MrBob
Well-known member
"Now, whether you agree or disagree with the interpretation of Peter being angry for 1 minute of the 2 1/2 hour-long film (which I'd consider to be incredulously light), that's your decision."
Truman, the anger is not just for one minute. Peter is imbued with unnecessary anger at the beginning. It is like complaining about the Susan/Caspian romance. It wasn't just the kiss that defined the romance, but all of the flirting. The arguments were there, but it was the underlying issues that Peter had that I am upset about with Peter.
Heck, the arguments about the raid, both planning and the aftermath were perfectly in place. The times when there should not have been anger is what we have been debating about. Where, what, and the extent he should be angry is what we are ultimately debating. Copper and others, including me, feel the level of anger before Peter got to Narnia was out of proportion and that is not a good beginning.
"do you realize how much money it would have cost and how much time for Walden to scrap Adamson's hard work?"
Aravis,
Fox did it with VotDT from what I heard. They had a somewhat complete script, which was then somewhat rewritten for the beneift of Fox. The fact is the scripts belong to Walden, not the screenwriters or director. They are paying people to write the script and what comes out is ultimately what they are paying for. The production company in a sense buys the script from the screenwriters. They do have creative control over the movies they produce.
The success or failure of a movie falls on all aspects, including the production comapny.
"I don't believe Walden (or Disney for that matter) holds the rights to the Lewis estate."
No, Aravis, but Walden has bought the exclusive rights to turn the books into movies. They bought that from the Lewis Estate for a certain period of time. BBC did the same thing when they made their miniseries.
By the way, I threw Greham's name in there because he is part of the production team. How much creative control he has is unknown to me, but he is still part of the team that brought the books to the big screen.
"But, per your suggestion, I shall leave this thread and put everyone who's posted negatively on my ignore list."
I also always say that one should ignore threads that one does not find palatable. I have done that on a number of forums, but I have yet to put anyone on my ignore list. There is no need. Just ignore them the old fashioned way. Plus, putting someone on your ignore list in one thread means they are there in all threads and you never know when and how you may agree with them.
MrBob
Truman, the anger is not just for one minute. Peter is imbued with unnecessary anger at the beginning. It is like complaining about the Susan/Caspian romance. It wasn't just the kiss that defined the romance, but all of the flirting. The arguments were there, but it was the underlying issues that Peter had that I am upset about with Peter.
Heck, the arguments about the raid, both planning and the aftermath were perfectly in place. The times when there should not have been anger is what we have been debating about. Where, what, and the extent he should be angry is what we are ultimately debating. Copper and others, including me, feel the level of anger before Peter got to Narnia was out of proportion and that is not a good beginning.
"do you realize how much money it would have cost and how much time for Walden to scrap Adamson's hard work?"
Aravis,
Fox did it with VotDT from what I heard. They had a somewhat complete script, which was then somewhat rewritten for the beneift of Fox. The fact is the scripts belong to Walden, not the screenwriters or director. They are paying people to write the script and what comes out is ultimately what they are paying for. The production company in a sense buys the script from the screenwriters. They do have creative control over the movies they produce.
The success or failure of a movie falls on all aspects, including the production comapny.
"I don't believe Walden (or Disney for that matter) holds the rights to the Lewis estate."
No, Aravis, but Walden has bought the exclusive rights to turn the books into movies. They bought that from the Lewis Estate for a certain period of time. BBC did the same thing when they made their miniseries.
By the way, I threw Greham's name in there because he is part of the production team. How much creative control he has is unknown to me, but he is still part of the team that brought the books to the big screen.
"But, per your suggestion, I shall leave this thread and put everyone who's posted negatively on my ignore list."
I also always say that one should ignore threads that one does not find palatable. I have done that on a number of forums, but I have yet to put anyone on my ignore list. There is no need. Just ignore them the old fashioned way. Plus, putting someone on your ignore list in one thread means they are there in all threads and you never know when and how you may agree with them.
MrBob
While I don't wish anyone to leave the forum, I certainly won't feel guilty if a person decides to leave. I never post anything with malice in my heart, but I will be honest. And sometimes, I will post recommendations that have worked for me.
AsbelMctalisker
New member
I do think that we really need to move on somewhat from these debates about what went wrong with PC and start focusing more on VOTDT. This thread IS supposed to be about the effects the PC changes should have on VOTDT.
The short answer being `not much`.
While we dont know much about it yet we have had a couple of hints about a few changes in the VOTDT screenplay from the book.
1) From that old `leaked` early draft and from some hints gained from a recent casting call it looks like the opening England sequence is going to have a wartime setting rather than being set in the post war period.
Thats not a big problem from my point of view unless they intend to have Susan appear in a cameo role but perhaps some of you feel differently.
2) From that draft again plus some old pre-production paintings done before PC was released it looks like they have been considering using The Green Witch from SC as a major villian in the film. That strikes me as a BAD idea and doing that will introduce major changes to the storyline.
The short answer being `not much`.
While we dont know much about it yet we have had a couple of hints about a few changes in the VOTDT screenplay from the book.
1) From that old `leaked` early draft and from some hints gained from a recent casting call it looks like the opening England sequence is going to have a wartime setting rather than being set in the post war period.
Thats not a big problem from my point of view unless they intend to have Susan appear in a cameo role but perhaps some of you feel differently.
2) From that draft again plus some old pre-production paintings done before PC was released it looks like they have been considering using The Green Witch from SC as a major villian in the film. That strikes me as a BAD idea and doing that will introduce major changes to the storyline.
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Mrs Gil-Galad Took
New member
There was nothing wrong with your post! You never said she should leave. You only meant if it makes her angry to read all this she shouldn't read it. People are allowed to give their opinions whether someone likes it or not. That's what makes everybody unique.
Oww and knowing Aravis she will stay
This forum is way too addictive 
Liz
New member
Yes, I'm expecting great things.
I hope I'll love the VotDT film!! Perhaps I won't, time will show. But I'll see it with an open mind. And if I don't like it, I'll see it again. (Liked PC better the second time I saw it). THEN I'll make my judgement!This thread is actually about the changes in PC, and if they'll have any effect on the new film. I don't think so. Can't see which changes should have any effect, since neither Peter nor Susan are coming back to Narnia.
Sail on, Dawn Treader!!
