Interesting article from a British Muslim

Copperfox said:
S-R, your points are excellent as usual. Years ago, this forum had an epidemic of Mary Sue-ism, as when one girl insisted that it was the most natural thing in the world for LUCY Pevensie to be superior to PETER at swordfighting.

In a Socratic topic back then about the differences between the sexes, another girl was so frantic to "prove" the absolute superiority of women over men, that she only succeeded in proving SHE was ridiculous. In the context of women in the Armed Forces, she cited a female weightlifter who could lie on her back and hoist huge weights with her legs. I couldn't help envisioning this woman in Afghanistan: "Look out, you Taliban chauvinists, or I'll lie down on my back and throw barbells at you with my feet!"

Unless technology makes profound changes, there WILL always be significant differences in the average abilities of men and women: a tendency, not a rule with no exceptions, but a CLEAR tendency, for men to be stronger, women to have quicker reaction times, etc. And I do think Mr. Lewis was perfectly fair to the female sex. Nobody forced him to depict Aravis as able to wield a sword.
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Thanks, Copperfox. You make good points too and I agree with them all.
 
SR

I basically agree with everything you said. I did want to caution, however, that in our desire to defend Lewis (who is ace!) against unfair charges we may imagine that he was perfect and thereby overlook things that some people may legitimately disagree with him over. But one of the great things about Lewis is that what he says is worth listening to and thinking about even when he's wrong!

Peeps
 
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SunshineRose said:
Thanks, Copperfox. You make good points too and I agree with them all.
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So do I. And i agree with those you make, too.
In my opinion, we must remember that C.S. Lewis was not only writing from his Christian point of view, but he was also writing in the 1950s when social attitudes were totally different to what they are now. However, for reasons already stated by others, I see nothing either racist or sexist in his writings. In addition, the prophesy clearly stated that it required two Sons of Adam and two Daughters of Eve to bring an end to the reign of Jadis; and by no stretch of the imagination could she be regarded as a weakling either!
 
Peepiceek said:
SR

I basically agree with everything you said. I did want to caution, however, that in our desire to defend Lewis (who is ace!) against unfair charges we may imagine that he was perfect and thereby overlook things that some people may legitimately disagree with him over. But one of the great things about Lewis is that what he says is worth listening to and thinking about even when he's wrong!

Peeps
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Your caution is understood:D I definitely don't think that C.S. Lewis was perfect (only God can be that), and I don't want to give the impression that I think or feel that way, so if that was the impression I gave, sorry about that.

I also wanted to repeat what I said in my first post on this thread about it being painful to encounter what you see as caricatures of your culture or religion (or gender, for that matter) in a work of literature or other media. I've felt that pain, so I do understand that feeling. I don't want to minimize the fact that people have those feelings, but I don't think Lewis would want people to have those feelings, or intend for people to have those feelings.

My problem isn't with people who feel like they have been insulted by some passages (because I could see not liking that the Calormene people are described as cruel in VotD when Caspian talks to the Calormene traders, for example) but with those who want to focus on just those passages and ignore other passages in order to argue that Lewis was racist or sexist.

I think people throw around words like racist or sexist far too easily in the modern world when words like that should only be used when it is obvious that one race really is being advocated as superior to another (or all others) or when one gender really is being painted as inferior to the other. I think that Lewis' work is ultimately too nuanced in its treatment of the Calormenes and females to support that conclusion. If people reached the conclusion that Lewis wasn't racist or sexist, but maybe they would have preferred more sensitivity or inclusion in certain situations I would have a lot more respect for them and their argument.

My other problem with people who like to accuse Lewis of racism or sexism is the overall quality of the argument that most of them put forth. The passages that they normally choose to base their arguments upon are typically not the strongest ones to support their thesis. Most of the time, they make the mistake of choosing lines that (when tone is taken into account) are quite obviously jokes or marks of characterization in those we aren't meant to like. They seldom pick out the passages that could most clearly support their conclusion (which, in my opinion, isn't nuanced enough to reflect Lewis' work) without needing to be interpreted in a way that, frankly, runs counter to the tone of the text.

I should also say that I don't see it as my job to prove that Lewis wasn't a racist or a sexist, since I can talk until my face turns blue and not prove a negative. In this case, I see the burden of proof as being on those making the accusation (i.e. Lewis is a racist or sexist), and I see it more as my duty to point out that their proof isn't quite as solid, definitive, or condemning as it could seem at first glance. I just think that people should be regarded as innocent (i.e. not sexist or racist) until proven beyond a reasonable doubt to be guilty as charged. I don't think Lewis can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt to be guilty of sexism and racism. In fact, the debate on the subject kind of proves that there is that reasonable doubt.

What Lewis writes is always worth thinking about and its definitely worth debating if its wrong, I agree:D Again, I don't want to come across as saying that people cannot have legitimate grievances with how the Calormenes or females are portrayed in certain passages, because my argument is that Lewis is not (as some have claimed) a sexist or a racist. I think that his view of females and the Calormenes (and education and food and many other great subjects) is too nuanced to support an extreme conclusion, such as sexism or racism.
 
Right about the Cor-Aravis marriage.

Anyway, politically-correct indignation is always terribly selective. One Mary Sue-type girl right here on TDL was up in arms against anything demeaning women, but saw nothing wrong with saying that ALL MEN were pigs.
 
Copperfox said:
Right about the Cor-Aravis marriage.

Anyway, politically-correct indignation is always terribly selective. One Mary Sue-type girl right here on TDL was up in arms against anything demeaning women, but saw nothing wrong with saying that ALL MEN were pigs.
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Politically-correct indignation is definitely terribly selective. That attitude that it is okay to mock men, but anything that might possibly be seen as demeaning to females is abominable is one of the reasons I shy away from modern feminism. The feminism of the past had some real battles to fight (such as for voting rights and equal pay for equal work, etc.) but modern feminism has been reduced to tilting against windmills or fighting battles that are, to say the least, less than noble. I think the goal should be treating everyone, male or female, with respect and dignity, not saying that one gender should have all the rights and benefits.
 
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