Israel Conflict

[Copperfox]

This is a good time to recommend an author. I hope I spell his name right. He is Walid Shoebat (I don't know if the surname is pronounced like the English words "shoe" and "bat"). He used to be a Palestinian terrorist; but then he came to faith in Jesus, and he now argues in favor of Israel's right to exist. You should be able to find out more about him in a web search.

 

[Doffen]

GUYS! Be real! The Muslims are cruel to the women in thier cultral.

Let me ask you a question (going shadow-hawk style). Have you ever talked to a muslim woman before? ... Ever? Or is this something you see on the news and instantly believe it? It would be cool to me if you said "Some Muslims are cruel to their women", but saying "The muslims" make me think that you're ignorant and you've never seen or experienced any of their culture. Most muslim women have a good relationship to their husbands. Some husbands are people who treat their women badly, but guess what; Christian men does that to (unarguable, really, even though you might say "he's not a christian when he does that", I don't care. It's still done)

And tell a muslim woman to take her scarfs (sp?) of. Tell her she's free and that she can open up to the world with all of her beauty! .. She'll slap you in the face. She doesn't want to. They are indeed told to wear it, but they also want to.

One thing I cannot argue on is that many muslim women are stoned or killed because of different stuff, which I'm really sorry about (Not being a muslim myself, but still sorry). But saying that "THE MUSLIMS" (sorting them all as the same) is wrong.

(as a matter of fact, I know that many muslims teenagers treat women alot better then the average westernized male. I dunno why. May have something to do with the Media)

 

[Samwise Gamgee]

hmmm Doffen I think you have something against Christians and the west. Jezzz what clue could it be? That well everything you right is against the christians and the west in genreal. Have you ever talked to a nice westren person or christain before? Have you read the bible and really taken it in? Guess not from what you write. Just a guess.

 

[Copperfox]

Doffen, I know exactly the woman you should speak with, one whom I have met in person. Her name is Mina Nevisa. She has authored a book, "Miracle of Miracles," which tells her story, and a companion volume titled "Don't Keep Me Silent!" Mina and her husband are both native Iranians; both were brought up in a repressive hardcore-Islamist atmosphere; and both came to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ independently of each other before they were married. Now they live in freedom in America...and there are Iranian hardliners who wish to murder them for escaping from enslavement. Mina could tell you in a very, very firsthand way how MUCH cruelty and abuse is heaped upon women in rigid Islamist societies. Do an internet search for her.

And yes, it DOES make a difference that abuses committed by supposed Christians are usually being committed by FAKE Christians. If it were the REAL Christians routinely doing such evil, Christianity really would be discredited.

 

[Doffen]

hmmm Doffen I think you have something against Christians and the west. Jezzz what clue could it be? That well everything you right is against the christians and the west in genreal. Have you ever talked to a nice westren person or christain before? Have you read the bible and really taken it in? Guess not from what you write. Just a guess.

Well then honestly you think wrong. Do you mean that by defending the islamist faith I'm anti-christian? I'm neither a christian, nor a islamist, hindu, budhist or jew. I couldn't care less what religion you have, I still respect you in the same way I respect everyone else.

Another thing to add is that I'm FROM the western world. I was born here, and my heritage is a 100% Norwegian (I get irritated skin after ten minutes in + degrees and I was born with skiis on my legs ... Really). Yes; I've talked to alot of nice Christians before, a tons of them on these forums, and Copperfox is one of them, and no, I've not read the whole bible, but I've read some.

But let me ask you a question... What do you mean with "against the west"?... Is it us against them? (Went shadow-hawk again)

Doffen, I know exactly the woman you should speak with, one whom I have met in person. Her name is Mina Nevisa. She has authored a book, "Miracle of Miracles," which tells her story, and a companion volume titled "Don't Keep Me Silent!" Mina and her husband are both native Iranians; both were brought up in a repressive hardcore-Islamist atmosphere; and both came to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ independently of each other before they were married. Now they live in freedom in America...and there are Iranian hardliners who wish to murder them for escaping from enslavement. Mina could tell you in a very, very firsthand way how MUCH cruelty and abuse is heaped upon women in rigid Islamist societies. Do an internet search for her.

Alright. I'll do an internet search on her. And as I said; I know there are many (MANY) muslim women who lives a bad life and their husbands are horrible. But I'm quite sure that's not a majority of the population. Muslim men are not worse then other men.

And yes, it DOES make a difference that abuses committed by supposed Christians are usually being committed by FAKE Christians. If it were the REAL Christians routinely doing such evil, Christianity really would be discredited.

No of course it doesn't. What about that pastor who had raped two girls? He was surely alot into the christians faith, and yet he did it. So everytime a christian sayes that muslims are so bad (and blaims his faith), no one can point their finger on the christians and say that the same thing has happened, because they were FAKE? ... Guess what; The turkish goverment after a terrorist attack said to the world that the people who did the terror attack was not real muslims. They were fake. Do you buy that story? No?... Thanks.

 

[Copperfox]

Okay, Doffen, I'll try again. I appreciate your calling me a nice guy, and I promise that what I'm doing here is for your own good, seeking to make you understand better.

The New Testament clearly tells us to be kind to others. The Koran and the Hadith clearly say it's okay to beat wives and kill non-Muslims. Thus, the pastor who raped the girls was very obviously NOT obeying his holy book, while the terrorists of 9-11 very obviously WERE obeying theirs. If you don't see a difference between those, you might be TRYING not to see it. You must examine yourself on that.

What if someone stole your car and fatally struck a pedestrian with it? Would you accept the blame for the crime just because the criminal had created an outward appearance of you being responsible? That phony pastor stole Jesus' car, so to speak; Jesus is not to blame for that, nor are His true followers.

About "Us vs. Them": Western civilization generally has been trying for a long time now to be tolerant and inclusive, trying hard to make amends for past intolerance and injustice. But the hardcore Islamist system practices "Us vs. Them" RIGHT NOW, and has no intention of changing.

 

[inkspot]

OK, I am asking you guys and gals, as a moderator now, to do a couple of things:

1. If you want to discuss Islam in general and its differences with other religions, please go back to the old Islam thread. I will try to find it and give it a bump. This thread is for discussion of Israel, specifically, and this back-and-forth about Islam is not relevant. Please stop it.

2. Please be nice to each other, and if someone disagrees with you (Samwise) do not respond by making a personal attack ("every post you make is blah blah blah..."). Doffen is not a Muslim, is not from the Middle East and does not have a chip on his shoulder about Christianity at all, that I can tell from many interactions with him. He has been very courteous and open in religious discussions, and he has not been out of line here (except the same as everyone has been out of line in discussing Islam in general in this thread rather than the Islam thread.)

If this discussion of Islam continues here, rather than in the other thread, I'll just lock this thread. This thread is for discussion of Israel. I'll re-direct.

If I understand the peace talks held recently in Annapolis, US President Bush has suggested either dividing Jerusalem into an Islamic and a Jewish city so control is shared, or else he has asked for Israel to relinquish control of Jerusalem to the Palestinians entirely.

What do we think of these suggestions? Are either workable solutions to the Israel crisis?

 

[lieke]

Aye, ma'am! *goes back on topic*

If I understand the peace talks held recently in Annapolis, US President Bush has suggested either dividing Jerusalem into an Islamic and a Jewish city so control is shared, or else he has asked for Israel to relinquish control of Jerusalem to the Palestinians entirely.

What do we think of these suggestions? Are either workable solutions to the Israel crisis?

If 'relinquish control of Jerusalem to the Palestinians' means that Israel has no right of Jerusalem anymore i say no. (if that's not what you mean then i think you can skip the rest of my post) For me there are actually a few sides to it:

In the bible Israel has all the 'rights' to Jerusalem, it's part of their country, and they live there. (Even those who don't believe anything of christianity believe (i think) that Israël lived there long time ago.) I do understand some of the 'anger' that is there with the Palestinians whose country was kinda like 'taken' in 1948, because they lived there by then. I mean, i wouldn't like it if some other countrys decided that my country should be shared with complete different people because they lived here years ago. On the other hand: the people of Israël needed, especially after the holocaust, a country for themselves. And what would be a better place then their former country? I think it's a really complex problem (i'm sure i left quite some things out, so if anyone has something to add: please do so).

But we can say that Jerusalem is the most important place for all jews (and all zionists too i think), especially because there still is that wall left there. So i think saying that the jewish people should leave Jerusalem is not the right thing to do.

Dividing it into two parts would (i think) logistically be a major problem, because were do you divide it? I would rather see the two populations living there together in peace, but hey: that's what everyone has been hoping for for years, and it has not happened yet.

Another thing that worries me is that the palestinian people don't seem to 'accept' the authority of their president. They say that he does not know what the people want, and that he does not speak in name of the people, also Hamas says the same thing. That could be even a bigger problem, because if there will finally be a good plan, than it could still go really wrong because the palestinians don't accept it.

 

[Copperfox]

Back before 1967, when certain non-Israelis had control of half of Jerusalem and the West Bank of the Jordan River, their troops used to use old Jewish graves as outdoor toilets. Somewhere we just might discuss what there was in their background and way of thinking that made them figure it was okay to do this; but it speaks volumes about what a ROTTEN idea it is to give one square foot of Jerusalem back to their control. Ditto the Golan Heights, Syria's favorite spot to set up artillery to bombard Israel.

Oh, and I almost forgot: a couple of years ago, certain non-Israelis seized control of Bethlehem's Church of the Nativity, and trashed it like teenage vandals. Those certain non-Israelis would go ballistic if anyone showed a hint of disrespect to _their_ sanctuaries of a certain non-Israeli belief system, but they figured a Christian church was as much fair game for desecration as a Jewish cemetery. And _these_ are the people Mr. Bush imagines will now negotiate in good faith?

I'm sorry, this is terribly hard for me. Maybe I'd better stop writing any more entries on this thread, so that others won't be deprived of it. I can't figure out how to separate violent terrorist actions from that which is very well known to be THE motivation of those violent actions.

See you over on the you-know-what thread sometime.

 

[inkspot]

LOL, you can still say Muslim, as long as you are saying something relevant to the Israel conflict at the same time. I am nt an expert on this situation, but I have read a few books, trying to figure out what in the world is going on.

Lieke, I think that prior to Israel's "re-birth" in 1948, the area now known as Israel/Palestine was sporadically occupied by nomadic people who were associated with the surrounding countries of Syria, Lebanon and Jordan. If I understand it correctly, when Israel declared itself a nation, they did not violently dispurse these people, but because they were nomadic and allied with certain surrounding nations, assumed that they would be absorbed into those Arabic nations.

Maybe that was a haughty assumption. Maybe it is hard to say what land, exactly, belongs to nomadic people. But the reallity was: Syria, Lebanon, Jordan and surrounding nations refused to accept these Arabic people into their countries, at that very moment "creating" a Palestinian people who had, ipso facto, been deprived of "their land."

If those nations had done the neighborly thing, the very thing they had done for thousands of years in that area, and accepted those people's roaming back through their borders, there would not have been a Palestinian problem. As I understand it, the surrounding Arabic nations may actually have created the Palestinian people, and their plight, simply to have something to use as an international rallying point to make people disparage Israel.

On the face of it, Israel is a tiny nation, and the Palestinians could far more easily be accommodated by their Arabic brothers and sisters in Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, etc. Especially because, as CF points out, the Palestinians and many other Middle East Muslims are hostile and do not admit that Israel, or any Jews, have a right to exist.

 

[Copperfox]

When modern Israel declared independence, it was the Arab League which urged "Palestinian" Arabs (I've already posted information before now, proving that there IS NO real traditional "nation of Palestine") to get out of the way so that Arab armies could more conveniently wipe out the Jews. Arabs left Israel of their own accord; Israel "driving them out" is one more self-serving fiction by the Arab side. Those Arabs who did stay in Israel enjoyed, and still enjoy, civil rights; some of them even hold seats in the Knesset. How many Jews are allowed to hold government office in, say, Syria?

 

[Samwise Gamgee]

Also Doffen when the Islams stop saying that any one who is not a Muslim is an Infadiel and saying that the Jewish people and Chirstians should all be killed (btw the news is not what I am going by here. Musilms who have written books and also people who have spoken to muslims say this so there) then I will consider them in being friends. Untill then I see them as some who might hurt me, I know not all are like that. Red Rose isn't she is nice and a very good frined to all on here. All though the Iraqi muslims are tought at an early age to hate us Americans and Christans. So I am not bending in the way of 'oh I will just blow it all off because you know they haven't really blow up our army buds and all that.' Doffen you try having a dad serve in the army close to the lines and then come back and tell me that I should be all buddy bud.

 

[Doffen]

Also Doffen when the Islams stop saying that any one who is not a Muslim is an Infadiel and saying that the Jewish people and Chirstians should all be killed (btw the news is not what I am going by here. Musilms who have written books and also people who have spoken to muslims say this so there) then I will consider them in being friends. Untill then I see them as some who might hurt me, I know not all are like that. Red Rose isn't she is nice and a very good frined to all on here. All though the Iraqi muslims are tought at an early age to hate us Americans and Christans. So I am not bending in the way of 'oh I will just blow it all off because you know they haven't really blow up our army buds and all that.' Doffen you try having a dad serve in the army close to the lines and then come back and tell me that I should be all buddy bud.

So okey okey. Just to mention this: I don't care if you don't want to be friends with muslims or no. That's solely up to you if you want to limit your friendship with "one type" of humans, although for me, that would make my day way less colorfull. But hey, which muslims did they speak to? How many muslims have they asked, and from where did they come from?

I'm going to shove your "Iraqis are learned to hate Americans and Christians" under the carpet. That's a lie or you don't know better. Many, MANY Iraqis are thrilled to have the Americans there to help out in the situation.

My DAD is a international news-reporter in my countries biggest news-paper. America is not the only participant in this war, if you think that all Americans share something special by having soldiers in Iraq, you're heavily mistaking. My dad was there when the bombs rained over Bagdad. Two-three weeks ago two Norwegian special soldiers DIED in Afghanistan by muslims. And they were from my area. I know people who knew one of them. I'm even in training for service myself, so please, don't think that America is the only country down there.

 

[Samwise Gamgee]

And you think you know every thing eh? Did you not see I mention Red Rose who is a musilm and who is my friend! She is amazing and really I think she is the only Muslim I will ever have as a friend because unlike other muslims I don't think she cares if my dad is over there risking his life. And Doffen you know what? I'm not racist belive it or not. I just think if some one is threating my life and others I shouldn't be in the way. I will have tolerance because it is my tolerance before theres. But how many muslims have you spoken to lately in the past twenty four hourse eh? How many do you see ever day? Tell the truth, are you really comfortable around them at times? Because you are now on defence mode and you have leaks in your truths like I did over at the Evolution v.s Creation thread. Be careful you might offend some one soon....not me though....nope I am not easly afended.

AND SO WHAT IF YOUR DAD IS A REPORTER! THE NEWS STINKS! MY DAD CARRIES A GUN DUH! HE HAS BEEN IN THIS WAR AND KNOWS MORE ABOUT THAN ANY REPORTER! THE BRITISH ARE AWESOME SO THERE!

 

[Copperfox]

Doffen, be assured that I'm grateful for every ally we have in the war against terror. Samwise, be careful not to overextend yourself; you are on the right side in your heart, but don't run beyond the range of your facts.

 

[Doffen]

And you think you know every thing eh? Did you not see I mention Red Rose who is a musilm and who is my friend! She is amazing and really I think she is the only Muslim I will ever have as a friend because unlike other muslims I don't think she cares if my dad is over there risking his life. And Doffen you know what? I'm not racist belive it or not. I just think if some one is threating my life and others I shouldn't be in the way. I will have tolerance because it is my tolerance before theres. But how many muslims have you spoken to lately in the past twenty four hourse eh? How many do you see ever day? Tell the truth, are you really comfortable around them at times? Because you are now on defence mode and you have leaks in your truths like I did over at the Evolution v.s Creation thread. Be careful you might offend some one soon....not me though....nope I am not easly afended.

You're not easily offended? Please, don't test my intelligence. Samwise; I don't think I know everything, but you seem to do so. You are allowed to throw wild assumptions around saying that I'm a anti-westernized and anti-christian guy (as clearly, I am not, and I would surely not be allowed to be here if I was). You asked me if I was nervous around muslims sometimes. And of course; I am. But not more then around any christian or white person. This has to do with the fact of gang criminality in my area, which makes it harder to trust newcomers then usual. I probably have as many muslim friends as Norwegian ones.

You just said in two sentences:
"I think she is the only Muslim I will ever have as a friend because unlike other muslims I think she cares if my dad is over there risking his life"

And then you said:
" And Doffen you know what? I'm not racist belive it or not."

So you think that every muslim besides your friend is a person without emotions; none caring if a human being dies. Okey.. I'll just let that be.

AND SO WHAT IF YOUR DAD IS A REPORTER! THE NEWS STINKS! MY DAD CARRIES A GUN DUH! HE HAS BEEN IN THIS WAR AND KNOWS MORE ABOUT THAN ANY REPORTER! THE BRITISH ARE AWESOME SO THERE!

"My dad is so totally stronger then yours! My dad beats yours at everything!" ... Gosh can you get more childish...
I respect your dad for being in the war, but that doesn't mean you can harass mine and tell me his work stinks.

I'm not easily harassed either, but I won't answer a new post like this.
(I'm on the defence because you're doing personal attacks. Even though that might be your way to argue, it's not mine)

Thanks Copperfox for your comment.

 

[Samwise Gamgee]

I don't have to like every bloody person that crosses my path. I am not saying they don't have feelings. It is thier Religon that I don't like. So there, end of story. You may like who ever but I don't.

 

[Copperfox]

Samwise, do you know the saying "Hate the sin, but love the sinner"?

Certainly, Muslim terrorists have no right to be immune to us shooting them just on the thin hope that some of them _could_ be led to repentance one day. The lives of their intended victims have a higher claim. The evil of armed Islamic extremism has to be opposed. But if I had a terrorist already imprisoned and powerless to do any harm, I would be happy for a chance to explain the gospel of Jesus to him.

You must be aware that there are Muslims who visit this forum. I will not deny the Deity of Jesus to please them, nor will I accept any phony excuses they may make for terrorism; but they still are human souls for whom Jesus died. If any of them are willing to hear the gospel, I will offer them the gospel, in the hope that they will come to know God as He _really_ is.

Be as angry as you like against the actual evildoers, of whom frankly there are plenty in the world's Muslim population. But don't tar every Muslim everywhere with the same brush. I know _I've_ been accused of hating all Muslims, but this charge has _never_ been true. I don't consider them entitled to murder my family, but I really don't think that all of them want to murder my family. And I hope to see more of them entering _Christ's_ family.

 

[Grey Pilgrim]

thank you for this speech it has opened my eyes and i agree with you totally man

 

[Son of Adam]

This thread has crossed the line of being one that is of a friendly debate nature and over into strong emotional and personal negative feelings as well, so this thread is closed.