Lucy Fan
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Just Finished Reading Voyage of the Dawn Treader
- Thread starter Lucy Fan
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Lady of the Lion's Mane
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There are many old, Biblical, medieval and otherwise symbols (these are animal ones in particular) for Christ, just as a Dove can represent the Holy Spirit....
with Aslan (which is actually Turkish for lion), it could be a direct allusion to
the Lion of Judah.
Then of course is the Lamb of God (who appeared in VDT).
I believe someone mentioned the albatross earlier on in this thread...
also:
Unicorn
Pelican
Phoenix
Griffin/Gryphon
...
were all (still are, really) symbols of Christ.
And here is an article on Aslan I think many here would find interesting:
http://oldarchive.godspy.com/culture/Finding-Aslans-Country-by-Stratford-Caldecott.cfm.html
For me, the CON aren't meant to be strictly read as an allegory. (I think I am correct in saying even Lewis himself said this.) Rather, they are meant to go "side-by-side" with the Bible, with how He has manifested Himself in our world, as Jesus. Just as surely as He is Aslan in Narnia and the rest if that world, He is Jesus in our world. Simultaneously, if you will.
Aslan, High King over all High Kings, Son of Emperor-Over-Sea.
with Aslan (which is actually Turkish for lion), it could be a direct allusion to
the Lion of Judah.
Then of course is the Lamb of God (who appeared in VDT).
I believe someone mentioned the albatross earlier on in this thread...
also:
Unicorn
Pelican
Phoenix
Griffin/Gryphon
...
were all (still are, really) symbols of Christ.
And here is an article on Aslan I think many here would find interesting:
http://oldarchive.godspy.com/culture/Finding-Aslans-Country-by-Stratford-Caldecott.cfm.html
For me, the CON aren't meant to be strictly read as an allegory. (I think I am correct in saying even Lewis himself said this.) Rather, they are meant to go "side-by-side" with the Bible, with how He has manifested Himself in our world, as Jesus. Just as surely as He is Aslan in Narnia and the rest if that world, He is Jesus in our world. Simultaneously, if you will.
Aslan, High King over all High Kings, Son of Emperor-Over-Sea.
KathrynJanewayChakotay
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I agree the more you look thru the chronicles and read them the more you see parallels in the bible sense i re read them i notice alot of it now that i am older.
Edmundisamazing
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I must say that VDT is a personnal favorite of mine, just because of Edmund.
I must say that VDT is a personnal favorite of mine, just because of Edmund.
What about Edmund?
QA48
New member
I finished reading the book about two weeks ago and I have to say the last to chapters of the book are the most spiritual of the whole series. It's in those last two chapters that ASLAN reveals himself to be HE whom I've been serving all my life here in the physical three-dimensional world I live in. Yet, there he is in the form of a Lamb and then a Lion in the fictional world of Narnia which becomes real in my imagination as I read it. Love it. I have high expectations for the movie. Michael Apted better not let me down.
NarnianofGryffindor
Active member
I don't mind changes in movies that are based on books, but I agree with you on that Tiff. They need to get those parts right about Aslan, they can't in any way change it or it would take away from Aslan's character.
blackheart
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One reason that the image of a lion captured Lewis’ attention might be that the lion’s mane is a built-in halo (as seen in iconography of Jesus). During the execution of Aslan, we see that, like the halo, the mane is a symbol of Aslan’s power (and divinity, really)—and so the White Witch Jadis is eager to see that it is shaved.
Copperfox
Well-known member
For any who have not seen me saying this elsewhere: here is what my pessimistic Puddleglum side predicts.
When they make the movie of "Dawn Treader," and Edmund asks Aslan, "Are You there too, Sir?", the screenwriters will make Aslan reply, "Yes...but there I am known....
...by MANY names."
When Christians express rightful indignation at this betrayal of Mr. Lewis, the movie folks will defend themselves by saying that identifying Aslan with just one particular Deity would have been a hate crime.
When they make the movie of "Dawn Treader," and Edmund asks Aslan, "Are You there too, Sir?", the screenwriters will make Aslan reply, "Yes...but there I am known....
...by MANY names."
When Christians express rightful indignation at this betrayal of Mr. Lewis, the movie folks will defend themselves by saying that identifying Aslan with just one particular Deity would have been a hate crime.
QA48
New member
I Don't mind changes as long as they're not drastic, I also don't mind if add to a point or scene in the book as long as THEY don't twist that point and add to it! Anyways, I will have to agree with Copperfox. They're going to change that line in the movie. Aslan forbid they even replace the image of the lamb. With what they did to PC I wouldn't be surprised if they did. I would be angry, but not surprised.
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Lady of the Lion's Mane
New member
To Copperfox: but wouldn't Mr. Gresham object to such a change, or one of the producer guys (or something) whom I know to be Catholic? Wouldn't they? Hm...
Besides, in one sense, saying 'many names' isn't incorrect. In other senses it is.
ie: Jesus, Christ, Emmanuel, Messiah, Saviour, Son of God, Lamb of God, Lion of Judah, Allah (Allah is just the Arabic (?) word for God, that's all.), etc, etc...
But I do know of what you are speaking.
I do think, however, that there are ways to come to know Him from other faiths and paths than Christianity, if incomplete, etc. The only reason they have any significance at all is because Christ is the 'glue' that holds everything together. Everything. The other paths, though, are not whole. (Like I said.)
Some interesting food for thought: I saw a bumper sticker recently that said "God is too big to fit into one religion."
BUT I would be unhappy if they change what Aslan said. Very unhappy indeed. For example, on a lesser Aslan line, I wish they hadn't altered the 'lioness' quote in the PC movie. In the movie, it was like, "If you were any braver, you'd be a lioness." In the book, see siggy banner. >_<
Besides, in one sense, saying 'many names' isn't incorrect. In other senses it is.
ie: Jesus, Christ, Emmanuel, Messiah, Saviour, Son of God, Lamb of God, Lion of Judah, Allah (Allah is just the Arabic (?) word for God, that's all.), etc, etc...
But I do know of what you are speaking.
I do think, however, that there are ways to come to know Him from other faiths and paths than Christianity, if incomplete, etc. The only reason they have any significance at all is because Christ is the 'glue' that holds everything together. Everything. The other paths, though, are not whole. (Like I said.)
Some interesting food for thought: I saw a bumper sticker recently that said "God is too big to fit into one religion."
BUT I would be unhappy if they change what Aslan said. Very unhappy indeed. For example, on a lesser Aslan line, I wish they hadn't altered the 'lioness' quote in the PC movie. In the movie, it was like, "If you were any braver, you'd be a lioness." In the book, see siggy banner.
>_<To Copperfox: but wouldn't Mr. Gresham object to such a change, or one of the producer guys (or something) whom I know to be Catholic? Wouldn't they? Hm...
Besides, in one sense, saying 'many names' isn't incorrect. In other senses it is.
ie: Jesus, Christ, Emmanuel, Messiah, Saviour, Son of God, Lamb of God, Lion of Judah, Allah (Allah is just the Arabic (?) word for God, that's all.), etc, etc...
But I do know of what you are speaking.
I do think, however, that there are ways to come to know Him from other faiths and paths than Christianity, if incomplete, etc. The only reason they have any significance at all is because Christ is the 'glue' that holds everything together. Everything. The other paths, though, are not whole. (Like I said.)
Some interesting food for thought: I saw a bumper sticker recently that said "God is too big to fit into one religion."
BUT I would be unhappy if they change what Aslan said. Very unhappy indeed. For example, on a lesser Aslan line, I wish they hadn't altered the 'lioness' quote in the PC movie. In the movie, it was like, "If you were any braver, you'd be a lioness." In the book, see siggy banner.
"God is too big to fit into one religion."
"There is no other name under haven by which man can be saved."
I do think people may have a chance if they are not exposed to the Gospel.
Copperfox
Well-known member
I no longer know what Mr. Gresham will object to, since he did not object to the way the Anthony Hopkins version of "Shadowlands" went out of its way to make Mr. Lewis appear FAR LESS wise and strong and good than he really was.
As for changing it to "many names," I mean that they will mean it like Zeus, Odin, Amon-Ra, Buddha, Krishna, Amaterasu, Pishiboro, Odudua, Mahesh Yogi, Quetzalcoatl, and Mary Baker Eddy. As in denying the _whole_ point about Aslan's REAL identity.
As for the name "Allah": in pre-Islamic Arab mythology, that name was in use as one of the deities in a typical polytheistic pantheon. The original edition of Allah was a god of the moon; this is why the crescent moon is the symbol of Islam. When Muhammad was looking around for a name to use for his custom-tailored version of God (the version that would let Muhammad marry his own daughter-in-law plus a girl no more than ten years old), he must have noticed that "Allah" had a vague phonetic or etymological connection to "Elohim," so he used that name in his unconvincing attempt to convince the Jewish colonies of Arabia that he was _their_ ultimate prophet. Now, it's a different thing to say that a _modern_ Arab SAYING "Allah" genuinely intends to be referring to the Supreme Being. That's why many Muslims who become Christians keep on using the name Allah to refer to God the Father. The real God knows Who they mean in that case. But the REAL God, I guarantee you, did not become incarnate in His Son Jesus Christ only to tell Muhammad later to write the Fourth Sura saying God had no Son!
As for the "God is too big--" slogan, I've encountered that before. It makes exactly as much sense as if you were to say, "Arithmetic is too big for 'two plus two' to have only one correct answer." Daishi, I have made some people on this forum angry at me in the past by arguing that God _would_ make allowances for ignorance; but my point is that if an ignorant person gets into Heaven anyway, it is not THANKS TO those things he believed which were diametrically opposed and mutually exclusive with the gospel of Jesus.
As for changing it to "many names," I mean that they will mean it like Zeus, Odin, Amon-Ra, Buddha, Krishna, Amaterasu, Pishiboro, Odudua, Mahesh Yogi, Quetzalcoatl, and Mary Baker Eddy. As in denying the _whole_ point about Aslan's REAL identity.
As for the name "Allah": in pre-Islamic Arab mythology, that name was in use as one of the deities in a typical polytheistic pantheon. The original edition of Allah was a god of the moon; this is why the crescent moon is the symbol of Islam. When Muhammad was looking around for a name to use for his custom-tailored version of God (the version that would let Muhammad marry his own daughter-in-law plus a girl no more than ten years old), he must have noticed that "Allah" had a vague phonetic or etymological connection to "Elohim," so he used that name in his unconvincing attempt to convince the Jewish colonies of Arabia that he was _their_ ultimate prophet. Now, it's a different thing to say that a _modern_ Arab SAYING "Allah" genuinely intends to be referring to the Supreme Being. That's why many Muslims who become Christians keep on using the name Allah to refer to God the Father. The real God knows Who they mean in that case. But the REAL God, I guarantee you, did not become incarnate in His Son Jesus Christ only to tell Muhammad later to write the Fourth Sura saying God had no Son!
As for the "God is too big--" slogan, I've encountered that before. It makes exactly as much sense as if you were to say, "Arithmetic is too big for 'two plus two' to have only one correct answer." Daishi, I have made some people on this forum angry at me in the past by arguing that God _would_ make allowances for ignorance; but my point is that if an ignorant person gets into Heaven anyway, it is not THANKS TO those things he believed which were diametrically opposed and mutually exclusive with the gospel of Jesus.
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Yah, this is not the thread to debate whether all paths lead to heaven. What we know about CS Lewis was that he believed only one path led to heaven, the path of following Christ, and so for the producers of VDT film to change the Lion's dialog at the end would be a travesty.
Copperfox
Well-known member
Inkspot, the relevance of mentioning the theological point in itself is this:
Those who want to suppress the truth about Jesus are not content to make their statements in their own voices contradicting His gospel. They want to go further, and interfere with OUR voices. It would at least be honest of them to say, "We think Lewis was dumb to believe in Jesus;" it is decidedly _dishonest_ for them to pretend that Lewis _didn't_ even express such a faith in the first place. They want to redefine the terms, so as to _steal_ the debate.
Now, I can see a certain toning down as acceptable. Just this weekend, I watched my video of the BBC "Voyage of the Dawn Treader" for the first time in quite awhile. They DID tamper with the crucial Aslan-Lucy-Edmund conversation at the end--but at least they did so in a more noncommittal way than the major travesty I have been predicting for the future movie. In the BBC version, instead of being asked whether He is present on Earth, Aslan is asked whether there is a way to His country _from_ Earth. He tells them that yes, there is a way, and promises them that "When the time comes, you will know." This is less satisfying than what Mr. Lewis actually had Aslan say, but at least it does not FLATLY CONTRADICT Aslan's identity as Jesus. And on the plus side, He does first appear in the scene as the Lamb. So you _don't_ come away from the BBC version gagging on a _denial_ of the Christian faith, only wishing it had been more boldly supported. The distortion I am expecting Walden to perpetrate in the third movie would be a blatant and aggressive denial.
Those who want to suppress the truth about Jesus are not content to make their statements in their own voices contradicting His gospel. They want to go further, and interfere with OUR voices. It would at least be honest of them to say, "We think Lewis was dumb to believe in Jesus;" it is decidedly _dishonest_ for them to pretend that Lewis _didn't_ even express such a faith in the first place. They want to redefine the terms, so as to _steal_ the debate.
Now, I can see a certain toning down as acceptable. Just this weekend, I watched my video of the BBC "Voyage of the Dawn Treader" for the first time in quite awhile. They DID tamper with the crucial Aslan-Lucy-Edmund conversation at the end--but at least they did so in a more noncommittal way than the major travesty I have been predicting for the future movie. In the BBC version, instead of being asked whether He is present on Earth, Aslan is asked whether there is a way to His country _from_ Earth. He tells them that yes, there is a way, and promises them that "When the time comes, you will know." This is less satisfying than what Mr. Lewis actually had Aslan say, but at least it does not FLATLY CONTRADICT Aslan's identity as Jesus. And on the plus side, He does first appear in the scene as the Lamb. So you _don't_ come away from the BBC version gagging on a _denial_ of the Christian faith, only wishing it had been more boldly supported. The distortion I am expecting Walden to perpetrate in the third movie would be a blatant and aggressive denial.
Elentari
New member
Copperfox--Don't forget that Douglas knew Lewis better than any of us can. I'm sure he had a reason for showing weakness in a man many view as rock-solid. When I watch Shadowlands I do not see Lewis as weak, I see him as going through a very difficult time in his life and being real. Since Shadowlands only shows a short snapshot of his life, however, I will agree with you that it is not the best OVERALL snapshot of who the great Clive Staples Lewis really was.
Elentari
New member
And if they change the phrasing/meaning of "There I have another name. You must get to know me by that name" then they are going to have a hard time when The Last Battle comes out. That is exactly the thought pattern Lewis deals with when he has the Ape and the Calormenes tell the Narnians that Aslan and tash are "one" (Tashlan). They're going to have to choose between PC-ness and the book Lewis wrote, or it has the potential to be a much bigger mess than Prince Caspian.
~RuthietheGentle~
New member
**May Contain Spoilers**
I'm very late in reading the series, compared to most people here. Better late than never though.
If anyone has any input please feel free.
I don't remember that part haha it's probably because the last time I read it was 2 years ago. Anyways I'm planning on re-reading all the books and finish the ones i have left(Silver Chair and Last Battle).