Problems In Lewis' Theology

"Emeth is regarded as seeking Aslan because he sought in Tash those qualities which actually belonged to Aslan; but many belief systems in our world are prizing different qualities than those of the actual God."

So Copperfox, as long as you are seeking the qualities in G*d, are you following the path to Him no matter what religion you are following or name you are calling Him? For me, that is yes. It is also a yes for those who are seeking the qualities that are still positive attributes, but not those that are necessarily that of the Christian G*d.

What if there were just many different Heavens for each religion for those who did, in fact, do good by Him. And just like in TLB, you can look from your Heaven to see other heavens the same way that Lucy could see from Aslan's Land her own parents in their Heaven.

"You cannot logically, it seems to me, say that a person is 100% sold-out to worshiping the devil and the opposite of God (as you say Emeth is) and at the same time say his deeds are acceptable to God and the opposite of the devil. I suppose I am not understanding you."

inkspot, I suppose I am not making myself clear enough. :confused:
Sometimes, I can't follow my own logic. What would the professor say about that?

Emeth worshipped Tash thinking he was a good god. He did not know that the Tash was the evil god and that Aslan was the good god. His worship was for the idea, not the specific god himself as it happened.

"I cannot help but notice that in both these statements, there is the caveat "IMO" or "my own beliefs," which leads me to believe that if other people have a different opinion, and different beliefs, then their sincere belief that genocide or holocaust will make the world a better place will also be acceptable to their god."

Let me reiterate my major idea in this issue:

My first statement was And ultimately, G*d is the only one who you will have to answer to. That means that in truth, we can not know, only believe, what G*d wants from us. It is why we have so many religious disagreements.

I have never stated that any specific deed will be or will not be acceptible to any person's god. I refuse to speak for Him. All I can state are my own beliefs and that I don't believe that any good god will accept any kind of murder, no matter what the reason, even if they believe it is what their god wants. According to my beliefs, the only thing that matters to G*d is what is in your heart and mind in all your acts, deeds, and behaviours.

"But the Bible and the Koran, and any religion worth its salt, make clear that their route is the only route to God, so how can all be true?"

Well of course religions say that. It is how they gain and keep their flocks. It is not something that I believe. No one single theology is the one true path to G*d. He is much too complex for any one religion to encompass. I think any religion that states that they are the one and only path is being arrogant.

MrBob
 
Is it arrogant to say "four" is the ONLY answer to two plus two?

MrBob said:
So Copperfox, as long as you are seeking the qualities in G*d, are you following the path to Him no matter what religion you are following or name you are calling Him? For me, that is yes....

What if there were just many different Heavens for each religion for those who did, in fact, do good by Him? And just like in TLB, you can look from your Heaven to see other heavens the same way that Lucy could see from Aslan's Land her own parents in their Heaven......

MrBob
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All of my allowances for the ignorant are on the assumption that they ARE ignorant, as opposed to knowingly rejecting the truth because they like something else better. Jesus, a few lines after John 3:16, said, "This is the judgment, that light has entered the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For whoever does evil hates the light, and does not come to the light, lest his deeds be exposed." As I have posted elsewhere long before now, I believe that anyone who is honestly searching like Emeth will eventually be contacted by the Holy Spirit in this life, although the rest of us may not be aware of it happening. Note that Emeth was not definitely stated to have DIED before he saw Aslan. If Emeth HAD known what Aslan was like, and had still preferred Tash, it could no longer be said that he was sincerely seeking.

The "different Heavens" described in "The Last Battle" were NOT a turf division among different deities, but were ALL the territories of THE ONLY Deity there is.

As for it being arrogant to say there is only one way: if you say that there is no such thing as a single right way that can be known to us, THAT is as much a specific position to take as any other position. It is a dogmatic insistence that reality has one specific nature, the nature of us not being able to find out its nature accurately. "Tolerant" persons, who refuse to agree that there can be a knowable right way, claim to be above the fray; but in reality, they have their own horse in the race every bit as much as the rest of us have.
 
The idea that many different paths lead to God is an article of faith just as the idea that only one path leads to God. Let's put it this way...neither position can be scientifically proven, but both of you are willing to bet your immortal soul on your respective positions. That's faith in my book.
 
MrBob said:
So Copperfox, as long as you are seeking the qualities in G*d, are you following the path to Him no matter what religion you are following or name you are calling Him? For me, that is yes. It is also a yes for those who are seeking the qualities that are still positive attributes, but not those that are necessarily that of the Christian G*d...

Emeth worshipped Tash thinking he was a good god. He did not know that the Tash was the evil god and that Aslan was the good god. His worship was for the idea, not the specific god himself as it happened.
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If I am not mistaken, in CON we read that Tash is a cruel god which demands sacrifices, and we see his representation in TDL, he is horrid -- if Emeth truly thought Tash was good, then he must have been the only person in Calormene or Narnia that thought so, which means he must have been the worst student ever in Sunday school because he had learned nothing about Tash at all. If, however, Emeth rejected everything he learned about Tash and decided to worship a good God who represented love, compassion and kindness, and just call that God he made up in his head "Aslan," then he never was worshiping Tash, he was always worshiping Aslan, and then we are right back to the point I agreed with you and ES on: it does not matter by what name you call Jesus, as long as you are worshiping the Son of God made flesh whose sacrificial death paid for your sins.

Think of it this way ... a Muslim child rejects all the precepts of Islam, and decides that Allah actually sent His Son here to become flesh and die on the cross as a sacrifice for our sins, and he lives his life according to the precepts of this compassionate and loving God, accepting forgiveness of sins by the atonement of Allah's Son. He is a Christian. But he never was a Muslim, was he? He never was worshiping the same Allah that Mohammed worships.
Mr. Bob said:
My first statement was And ultimately, G*d is the only one who you will have to answer to. That means that in truth, we can not know, only believe, what G*d wants from us. It is why we have so many religious disagreements.
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Here is where a specific faith such as Christianity (or Islam, or Judaism, what have you) has an advantage over you, because we have an ultimate authority who specifically has told us what is pleasing to God. Why would you think a faith of complete uncertainty ("I will never know what God wants, so I am completely on my own here ...") is better than one where God has given you the tools you need to live a God-pleasing life? Why would our faith be "arrogant" in comparison to yours?

mr. bob said:
I have never stated that any specific deed will be or will not be acceptible to any person's god ... According to my beliefs, the only thing that matters to G*d is what is in your heart and mind in all your acts, deeds, and behaviours.
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Again, you seem to me to be asserting that two opposite things:
1. I do not speak for God, but
2. In my version of God, it doesn't matter what you do as long as you have the right motives for doing it.

You are, of course, speaking for God, at least what you believe God to be llike, and you are at the same time negating your belief that things like murder and genocide are wrong, because you have left open this door: "the only thing that matters to G*d is what is in your heart and mind in all your acts, deeds, and behaviours." So, in essence, if Khmer Rouge-style or Sudanese-style genocide is done with the right heart, at least in your belief system.

Mr. Bob said:
Well of course religions say that. It is how they gain and keep their flocks. It is not something that I believe.
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So every religion (except yours) is founded on a lie. This seems like a pretty sweeping statement for someone who claims that all religions lead to God, etc. I think it has more integrity to say "my way is the only way" than to say: every way leads to God, but only my way of believing that every way leads to God is founded on the truth -- everyone else's is founded on a lie.

As ES and CF has shown, you are every bit as exclusive in your pantheistic way as we are in our Christianity. :p The only difference is that we are not afraid to say so up front -- in fact, Jesus urged us to do so in order to bring people to His saving grace.
 
Not wanting to hijack the other topic...

(message by inkspot from Is it wrong-His Dark Materials-Phillip Pullman )


"It just struck me funny that you were able to declare absolutely that whatever they believed was wrong, whereas you say that you do not know what God might find to be pleasing, and in fact that no one can know it, but that at the same time, all paths lead to God"


I guess I am trying to say too much and it is getting jumbled up. The first and most important fact is that no one knows what G*d knows. If you knew that much, you would be a god as well. Therefore, no one can know what G*d wants from them with absolute certainty (heck, we can't know if there is a G*d with absolute certainty). This is where faith and religion comes in. This is why faith and religion are so vital even if one's faith states that there is no higher being.

That said, I do not know what G*d expects from me. Instead, I have my own faith and belief about what He expects. This goes for everyone who has a personal faith that believes in Him. I use my own belief and faith, which I would never say is absolutely true, to decide what actions and behaviours are good and bad. They are my own opinions only and should be taken as such.

As for the final thought that all paths leading to G*d, I have stated that, in my own personal faith, only the paths of goodness lead to G*d. But of course, as I have iterated vehemently above, no one can know the true path and nature of G*d, but everyone can believe in the path and nature of Him. Therein lies faith and religion and all of the great blessings of belief.

This is why I do not like it when religions try to pass off their religious beliefs as facts and guarentees. No one can make that statement except for G*d Himself. I hope that helps the understanding of my messages.

Another topic totally different than this:

Did Lewis believe in the concept of Limbo. It seems to be where the Dwarves in "The Last Battle" go when they lose their own faith, when they become Dwarves for themselves. Up to that time, they had lived a life walking with Aslan but when they stopped, they were destined to live in the Stable in darkness for eternity(?) .

MrBob
 
The short piece "Screwtape Proposes A Toast" seems to confirm that Mr. Lewis believed in Limbo. Anyway, I think that's where I saw the reference.
 
The dwarves remained in that state from choice. They were given an open ended invitation to come in but isolated themselves. That is not the same as Limbo, which is a place one is sent by another.
 
That has a sort of a parallel with The Great Divorce, really. The people in the grey town had the option of leaving it at any time, which would make the town only Purgatory for them; but for those who preferred to stay, it was Hell. On the other hand, Lewis makes it clear that he is only storytelling, and nothing in the book should be taken as a literal commentary on the hereafter. His Purgatory/Hell and Vestibule of Heaven are only a setting for some parables about the choices people make.

The question concerning the dwarfs (<--correct spelling: "dwarves" was a neologism by Tolkien to be applied to Middle-Earth's Khazad only) is, of course, whether they had made themselves permanently incapable of opening their eyes and seeing Paradise, or whether they might at some future date stop being stubborn. But again, better to treat it as a barbed comment who would rather disbelieve amid self-caused misery than open their eyes to the Glory, than as any kind of statement on the next world.
 
Yes, Malacandra, the state those dwarfs put themselves into can be seen in real life even with people who have not done such evil as they did, who are no more sinful than the "built-in minimum." There are people who are AFRAID TO HOPE that the promises of the gospel could be true, fearing to be disappointed. So they "protect" themselves by refusing to hope for happiness.
 
Hi

I think this theology of Lewis is beutiful. If this statement were real christianity, i might have continued to have been christian. LEwis talk about a good god, not the egoistic god of the bible.

When i discovered that the christian god would punish good people and reward evil people after what they called thier god, i left the church. I can not call such a god a good god.

I have embraced the gods of my ancestors and rejected the middle-east gods. They seem to create to much hate and self-righteousness.

Im no expert of christianity, but i am interested in religion. As far as i understand, there is nowhere in the bible, that says, that we are going to meed oneanother in the afterlife, only jesus. Have i heard right?

Kim
 
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kimpierri said:
As far as i understand, there is nowhere in the bible, that says, that we are going to meed oneanother in the afterlife, only jesus. Have i heard right?
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No, the Bible implies people who have gone on to be with the Lord meet and recognize each other. Jesus told of a dead beggar who was comforted in the afterlife by dead Abraham, and Paul speaks of a great "cloud of witnesses" who have gone before us, even now surrounding us and encouraging us. There are distinct people in the afterlife, we will meet and know each other.

What is your faith now that you have switched from Christianity, if I may ask?
 
KIMPIERI:

You are indeed not an expert in Christianity; but that's all right, I probably knew even less about it than you when I was the age that I guess you are now.

I see that Inkspot got in ahead of me on the subject of Lazarus meeting Abraham in Heaven. On the matter of us seeing each other up there, let me add that God is NOT so crazily egotistical that He cannot stand for anyone ever to pay any attention to anyone but Him. (What He cannot accept is for FALSE GODS to be worshipped, because these false gods cannot hurt Him but they can hurt people.)

Now for a bigger issue: what do you mean when you say that God punishes good people? While none of us down here is ENTIRELY good, it's true that some are in various ways much better than others. There can be MANY reasons why these more-good people may have it harder in life than the less-good people do:

1} God may be calling on His righteous children to endure temporary suffering because the situation that causes the suffering is producing a very important good result for someone else.

2} God may have to humble and correct one of His children who is indeed very good in most respects, but has ONE fault still not removed. That one fault may be that the person is too proud of his goodness!

3} God may be training His child to be able to sympathize with others who have gone through suffering. This is true of a famous Christian woman named Joni Eareckson Tada, who is crippled; by her disability, she became able to minister to others with disabilities.

4} God may have a lesson to teach us that we are not yet wise enough to understand the explanation for. When my deceased first wife and I were raising our daughter, there was a time when she got about fifty wood splinters in her bare legs. I had to hold our poor little girl still by force, while her mother took out all the splinters. Our daughter was unable to understand why Mommy was doing something that caused pain, because she was too young to understand the danger of infection from the splinters; but her not understanding did not change the fact that she DID need the splinters taken out. Now, as an adult, she understands perfectly what was going on back then.


C.S. Lewis himself experienced much pain and sorrow: he was abused in a boarding school as a boy, and wounded as a soldier in World War One, and both his mother and his wife died of diseases. But he left us a testimony of trust in God. I urge you to read his book "The Problem of Pain," which talks about the same issues that are turning you away from Christianity. But meanwhile, you must know that the Christian members of this forum are NOT going to hate you and reject you for your present opinions.
 
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