The Series is threatened.
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Darth Sparhawk
New member
If it reaches over $ 400 mln., you can't say that it is a flop.
And I believe that it will.
No, but there are bits that several of us have greatly struggled with it. We wanted to see Prince Caspian stay with the spirit of the book and ALL characters. It didn't. Plain and simple. So we were disappointed and now wary of what is next to an extent. We don't all hate the film, several just struggle with it as a proper adaptation of the book...I use the word adaptation in a very loose manner.
OK, this might be a long post--I'm catching up!
First, in response to this incredibly piece of written brilliance:
YES! I'm with you 100%.
Now, on everything else...
I think if it had been closer to the book--but not 100%, I agree that with PC that wouldn't work--and barring stupidity from Disney "strategists", PC would have done better, not worse or the same. Lack of long-term advertising, the staggered openings, and not pleasing the fan base are the big three reasons for why it is viewed as not doing as well as it should have.
Regardless of name recognition, if fans like a movie they will come back again and again and pass the word (Pirates of the Caribbean comes to mind, for me. A friend went to see it on a whim, saw it in theaters multiple times, got all her friends hooked on it, bought it, and her friends went with her to see the two sequels the weekends they came out. Lord of the Rings was big because, though changes were made, they did not majorly offend the fan base and the base GREW with movie fans on top of book fans. New merchandise is still coming out and now 2 more movies are being made.
AND I must vehemently disagree with those who don't think the other books worth making into movies after Voyage. Perhaps you should go read the threads about the thoughts and hopes for these future movies and see how devoted book fans--and Narnia in general fans--are of ALL the books. ALL will make excellent movies IF DONE WELL and sufficiently connected via advertising to the Narnia name.
Thanks for the compliment. I think that the books are worth making into films, but the kicker is that they need to be done right and done well. If they aren't I will oppose them. I'd love to see 7 films for Narnia, but they need to be Narnia. Not bad adaptations that boarder on fanfiction set to film. I know the franchise could grow the way the others did...but I woudn't see it as a success if the films wavered too far from the books. It would be a tragic event in that case. People would think that because they'd seen the films that the knew Narnia and they wouldn't. Not in the least....and that would be so sad to me. It would be horrid! I would LOVE to see these films succeed. I would. No doubt! But, I won't stand by and just support anything either. They need to do it right or not at all. The stories are film worthy, but now the question is if they can get the books made into scripts worthy of Jack's work. LWW was tolerable on that count. I'd have changed one or two things, but it was ok. Prince Caspian took too many extra liberties that did Jack's work no credit. PC was the hardest to adapt to film I think, but there are changes that did not need to be made and yet were made anyway.
For the filmmakers I want to keep saying, "Stick to the books." If something doesn't need to be changed, then don't do it. Plain and simple. Really, it's not that hard of a concept. Just don't do it. Don't take the liberties if you don't absolutely have to. It will just anger the fans of the books and pretty soon you'll end up with a fan base of people who don't care about the books...but they won't be a long term group you can rely on and it won't do Jack any credit at all. Stick to the books. Before adding extra, make sure you have every scene from each book. Don't cut out the good scenes and then add extra, that's just frustrating and annoying. (ie, adding the night raid and cutting out Aslan's restorative run through town) Stick to the books.
That's freaky. Someone is clinging to their childhood memories of Narnia and thinking, "A lot of small tots will be in the audience ..."
Here's the thing ... when PJ was filming LOTR, he wanted to make Arwen into a fighter, and fans found out and raised a huge ruckus ... and he backed down! Although there were substantial changes to LOTR, the basic themes of it were left intact (to my mind -- I know others disagree). But when it came to something drastic, the director listened to the fans. We didn't see that happen at all with PC.Elentari said:
ITW said:
I have to agree with Jules here -- if the series is threatened by PC's poor returns, then the producers should take notice that they will be lopping off a huge portion of the adult fan base if they continue to change the story lines willy-nilly.
Hey, Jules! Haven't see you on the boards for a while. Hope you're doing well.
Elentari
New member
Copperfox, what TV trailer was THAT? Unless it was focused completely on the Flight to the Ford scene, in which case I would understand, since TV clips often only do one scene or idea as a "teaser". One of the irritating changes for many LOTR fans was the feeling that Frodo's character in the movie was much more wimpy than in the book. I just watched it the other night and realized there were more changes than I originally thought!
Inkspot--I agree, but it doesn't seem PC is getting that bad of returns, at least according to some people, and unless they are smart and visit TDL to figure out what the fans want, they may continue to think they know, when it's obvious they don't.
Into the Wardrobe, you are exactly right.
Copperfox
Well-known member
The trailer I mean WAS about the flight to the ford--with some voice-over about how everything depended on HER bravery. Now, actually, I wouldn't have been offended if Arwen HAD been given a chance to fight physically; after all, she would have had centuries in which to have learned how. But they shouldn't have opened the promo campaign with the impression that she was THE action star, and Aragorn wasn't even chopped liver.
Here's something I noticed and think will have a deeper impact though on the future of the films. I need an example so I'll use the romance of Susan and Caspian for it. I'm a member on all the major Narnia forums and needed to be because of LionCon. All of them had threads on this topic, some of them had polls, comment areas, and such regarding it as well. I went through them and this is what I saw. About 2% in favor of it and the other 98% or so were anywhere between "I can tolerate it but I don't like it" to the other end of "If I hear one spoiler of a kiss I'm cancelling my pre-ordered tickets and that's the end of it for me." Somewhere between 5-10% were in that last bit. The fans were very vocal on it. They asked Doug about it and he said that global warming was more important...and yes in the grand scheme of life, a light romance is not the end of the world. But, I think he missed a cue there. The fans just short of putting flashing neon lighted signs on the filmmakers doorsteps made their thoughts clear. There was no doubt that the fans did NOT want it in there. Some could tolerate it or look past it, but they didn't like the idea...and most still don't.
What happened with this was bigger than just putting a romance in, it turned into an unplanned test for the director and producers. The fans chose something that could be easily changed and discussed it on all forums ad nauseum at least 4 months before the release of the film in the hopes that they'd be heard as the LOTR fans were heard. They wanted to see if they mattered. They wanted to see if they could make a difference. The answer was a profound NO. Sure a good bit of the romance was edited out, but it was still there. It will forever be the proverbial pebble in the shoe of so many of the fans. They're now looking to repeat that mistake with putting Trumpkin on the Voyage of the Dawn Treader. It's not just in the changes that they make but the fact that they refuse to listen to the fans and arrogantly do whatever they want. The thing is, the fans got the message. They got the fact that they didn't matter. They got the fact that the filmmakers will do what they want when they want with Narnia. What the filmmakers don't seem to understand is that the fans of Narnia will not allow people to look at them and tell them that they're going to like whatever is put out regardless. I've noticed on the forums that several people have given up. Several people have dropped off...tons of them really. The fans put up a fight for what they wanted and it was thrown right back in their faces. Many have stopped trying. Personally I've been busy of late and things are kind of tough for me right now, but I keep looking at the boards and I don't know what to post. A wise friend said "If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all." So I haven't. There's not much to say that hasn't been said yet. The bottom line is that Trust has been broken between the fans and franchise. Trust is a huge commodity that they can't afford to lose. Trust is the difference between people going to the theaters vs. wanting to rent the films later.
The romance is just one area I picked as an example and there are several other areas where the ball was dropped. The filmmakers want to rationalize their reasoning...but it doesn't make the fans feel any better when they know they don't matter apart from their pocketbooks. The franchise basically said that they don't care about Narnia enough to make sure that they get it right so that the franchise can continue. I think they're down right scared to death of some of the later books and how to make them politically correct or not religiously exclusive or offensive. With Last Battle it can't be done and they know it. This provides an easy out for them. They can milk the first films for what they possibly can...but the later films are too much of a sticky issue in Hollywood to handle without offending specific groups. It never goes well when the fans know their thoughts and opinions when they're a united front don't matter. The fans got the message in full. Many have stopped fighting already on the various sites apart from just TDL. Peter Jackson was smart in changing things when the fans promoted a united front. He kept as many behind him as he could in doing so. Would that the Narnia franchise could have learned that lesson before it was too late. Before trust was lost.
I was once told about the idea of proverbial change in the pocket. You go into a job with a certian amount of proverbial change. You can gain more and you can lose it based on your actions, but once you lose it, you're done. The franchise for Narnia started with a good deal of change. With LWW they gained more than they lost. With PC they spent a great deal in a very loose manner in areas they didn't need to. It was easily preventable. I think VDT will be very telling as far as the rest of the franchise goes. Time will tell. Personally I think with that proverbial change, they need to hire a good financial planner to manage it more efficiently lest there be too few showing up at the box offices in the years to come. Fans don't like to be ignored. They don't like it when they don't matter.
You know, as I write this I'm sad. Very sad. I really like the cast and crew of the films. They're fun people, nice, and wonderful to be around. They're very likable people. They're smart and talented. Beyond talented actually. I'd hate to see something that good wasted on a few peoples' pride and arrogance.
What happened with this was bigger than just putting a romance in, it turned into an unplanned test for the director and producers. The fans chose something that could be easily changed and discussed it on all forums ad nauseum at least 4 months before the release of the film in the hopes that they'd be heard as the LOTR fans were heard. They wanted to see if they mattered. They wanted to see if they could make a difference. The answer was a profound NO. Sure a good bit of the romance was edited out, but it was still there. It will forever be the proverbial pebble in the shoe of so many of the fans. They're now looking to repeat that mistake with putting Trumpkin on the Voyage of the Dawn Treader. It's not just in the changes that they make but the fact that they refuse to listen to the fans and arrogantly do whatever they want. The thing is, the fans got the message. They got the fact that they didn't matter. They got the fact that the filmmakers will do what they want when they want with Narnia. What the filmmakers don't seem to understand is that the fans of Narnia will not allow people to look at them and tell them that they're going to like whatever is put out regardless. I've noticed on the forums that several people have given up. Several people have dropped off...tons of them really. The fans put up a fight for what they wanted and it was thrown right back in their faces. Many have stopped trying. Personally I've been busy of late and things are kind of tough for me right now, but I keep looking at the boards and I don't know what to post. A wise friend said "If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all." So I haven't. There's not much to say that hasn't been said yet. The bottom line is that Trust has been broken between the fans and franchise. Trust is a huge commodity that they can't afford to lose. Trust is the difference between people going to the theaters vs. wanting to rent the films later.
The romance is just one area I picked as an example and there are several other areas where the ball was dropped. The filmmakers want to rationalize their reasoning...but it doesn't make the fans feel any better when they know they don't matter apart from their pocketbooks. The franchise basically said that they don't care about Narnia enough to make sure that they get it right so that the franchise can continue. I think they're down right scared to death of some of the later books and how to make them politically correct or not religiously exclusive or offensive. With Last Battle it can't be done and they know it. This provides an easy out for them. They can milk the first films for what they possibly can...but the later films are too much of a sticky issue in Hollywood to handle without offending specific groups. It never goes well when the fans know their thoughts and opinions when they're a united front don't matter. The fans got the message in full. Many have stopped fighting already on the various sites apart from just TDL. Peter Jackson was smart in changing things when the fans promoted a united front. He kept as many behind him as he could in doing so. Would that the Narnia franchise could have learned that lesson before it was too late. Before trust was lost.
I was once told about the idea of proverbial change in the pocket. You go into a job with a certian amount of proverbial change. You can gain more and you can lose it based on your actions, but once you lose it, you're done. The franchise for Narnia started with a good deal of change. With LWW they gained more than they lost. With PC they spent a great deal in a very loose manner in areas they didn't need to. It was easily preventable. I think VDT will be very telling as far as the rest of the franchise goes. Time will tell. Personally I think with that proverbial change, they need to hire a good financial planner to manage it more efficiently lest there be too few showing up at the box offices in the years to come. Fans don't like to be ignored. They don't like it when they don't matter.
You know, as I write this I'm sad. Very sad. I really like the cast and crew of the films. They're fun people, nice, and wonderful to be around. They're very likable people. They're smart and talented. Beyond talented actually. I'd hate to see something that good wasted on a few peoples' pride and arrogance.
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Aw, Jules, are you OK honey? PM me, or call me, if there is anything I can do.
I agree with you; I think the producers of PC had a vision of where the story was going, and nothing we could do was going to change it. I like the film, myself, but I don't find it to be a good adaptation of the book, and if VDT tends further away, then I won't be in favor of any more films, for sure.
I wonder if there is a way to gauge just how much of your "proverbial change" was lost on PC, among real fans, and how much that translates into in real money ... which is the only thing they're concerned with, naturally.
I agree with you; I think the producers of PC had a vision of where the story was going, and nothing we could do was going to change it. I like the film, myself, but I don't find it to be a good adaptation of the book, and if VDT tends further away, then I won't be in favor of any more films, for sure.
I wonder if there is a way to gauge just how much of your "proverbial change" was lost on PC, among real fans, and how much that translates into in real money ... which is the only thing they're concerned with, naturally.
Thanks Jax! The ID theft problem is taking a turn for the worse in a big way, but I'll survive.
You know, I don't know that there is a good way to gauge it. A lot of people have dropped off of posting on all the forums I think. People who were seen before aren't so much now, and many don't seem to want to put up a fight with the spoilers that come out. They may post once, but they're not going to go all out again. There's no point. If they're moving away from the forums, there's no telling how much or little of the Narnia stuff they're going to be buying. I don't think it will do as well as LWW did. Specter didn't think they'd come out with an extended edtition of PC, which may be a good thing if their deleted scenes are more Su/Caspian romance bits.
I think Disney and Walden want to strangle whoever leaked the early VDT script. It was one that had been tossed, but it did more damage to the trust fans had and they knew it. That leaked early script could have been made up of "the worst fears" thread I think...or something close to that. Horrific doesn't even begin to come close to accurate. Yes they've tossed that bad one and we don't know what is coming...but still it's not inspired a lot of faith and trust between the fans and filmmakers.
You know, I don't know that there is a good way to gauge it. A lot of people have dropped off of posting on all the forums I think. People who were seen before aren't so much now, and many don't seem to want to put up a fight with the spoilers that come out. They may post once, but they're not going to go all out again. There's no point. If they're moving away from the forums, there's no telling how much or little of the Narnia stuff they're going to be buying. I don't think it will do as well as LWW did. Specter didn't think they'd come out with an extended edtition of PC, which may be a good thing if their deleted scenes are more Su/Caspian romance bits.
I think Disney and Walden want to strangle whoever leaked the early VDT script. It was one that had been tossed, but it did more damage to the trust fans had and they knew it. That leaked early script could have been made up of "the worst fears" thread I think...or something close to that. Horrific doesn't even begin to come close to accurate. Yes they've tossed that bad one and we don't know what is coming...but still it's not inspired a lot of faith and trust between the fans and filmmakers.
You don't say? I never read the early VDT draft on the internet thread, because I don't believe in stealing people's work or reading their mail without their permission ... I know I wouldn't like it if someone did it to me ... was the script really that bad?! Sheesh. I am glad I didn't read it.
I'm pulling for Apted to bring VDT back around to its Narnia roots. He can glitz it up so it is as exciting as the first 2 POTC movies, and still keep very true to the story, in my opinion. I hope he does.
Julie, I am so sorry about that ID theft thing!!! You're in my prayers, always.
I'm pulling for Apted to bring VDT back around to its Narnia roots. He can glitz it up so it is as exciting as the first 2 POTC movies, and still keep very true to the story, in my opinion. I hope he does.
Julie, I am so sorry about that ID theft thing!!! You're in my prayers, always.
Elentari
New member
Into the Wardrobe, you have a wonderful way with words. I agree 100%, trust is key. Honestly, I think for many of the "die-hard" fans (like Inkspot, you, and I for example), Voyage will be a deciding factor. As much as I want to see the whole series made into movies, if Voyage does not follow storyline, with characters where they are supposed to be and wording untampered with, I will stop going to see the movies in theater. I won't rent them. I won't encourage friends to see them. I will in no way promote them, as I feel I have for LWW and PC. I will probably borrow them from the library at some point, just to see them, but that gives Disney/Walden no $$ whatsoever. It is sad we probably couldn't form a world-wide boycott, but I think when each new movie comes out optimistic fans will HOPE it will be better each time. The key then, I think, may be in seeing it once and if it doesn't add up, withdrawing any financial support by seeing it again, buying it, renting it, etc. I think much hangs on Voyage.
Darth Sparhawk
New member
Into the Wardrobe, some fans do not post because they want to spend their time well, and reading bashing to a fave movie is not nice.
Just to add another POV.
Just to add another POV.
I think this Disney franchise will end either at Voyage or SC depending on the success of Voyage. It's pretty clear they're not gonna do the final three, much to my dissatisfaction, but if they're gonna ruin them I'd probably rather they weren't done (but I would love to see MN realised!!!).
Darth Sparhawk, I'm glad PC is a fave film of yours; I like it too. But remember that for some fans, it's downright upsetting to see integral parts of a book they cherish either scrapped or adulterated with little care shown. ITW and others don't mean their 'bashing' to be offensive to you personally. They too will be happy you enjoy it. I'm sorry if you took it to be so! A site like this with like minds is a good place to vent anger though!
Darth Sparhawk, I'm glad PC is a fave film of yours; I like it too. But remember that for some fans, it's downright upsetting to see integral parts of a book they cherish either scrapped or adulterated with little care shown. ITW and others don't mean their 'bashing' to be offensive to you personally. They too will be happy you enjoy it. I'm sorry if you took it to be so! A site like this with like minds is a good place to vent anger though!
I'm not bashing really, just venting some. As I said before I have wanted nothing more than to love the films! You have no idea how much. There are parts of them that I do love! That and I adore the cast and crew...struggle with the script writer's work, but as people they're fine. I am glad you and other liked the film. There can be tolerance for all sides.
I think this Disney franchise will end either at Voyage or SC depending on the success of Voyage. It's pretty clear they're not gonna do the final three, much to my dissatisfaction, but if they're gonna ruin them I'd probably rather they weren't done (but I would love to see MN realised!!!).
Darth Sparhawk, I'm glad PC is a fave film of yours; I like it too. But remember that for some fans, it's downright upsetting to see integral parts of a book they cherish either scrapped or adulterated with little care shown. ITW and others don't mean their 'bashing' to be offensive to you personally. They too will be happy you enjoy it. I'm sorry if you took it to be so! A site like this with like minds is a good place to vent anger though!
Thanks bro! You couldn't have said it better. I think for those of us who are older and were raised on the books first and foremost in a time where movies like this were still not even a remote possibility, there is a love for the book and for the way that Lewis writes. Then the BBC series came along and although it had bad production and in some spots bad casting, it stayed true to the books and the spirit of every character was in tact. Granted, the BBC series was a TV mini series as opposed to a regular film so it was done differently anyway. I think there was an overarching hope that there would be no question of how the Disney/Walden films would turn out. We thought it would be amazing production, great casting, and true to all of the books in the same way the BBC series was. We got the great production and great casting and all...we just forgot what Hollywood would bring to the table and demand...we forgot the focus on the bottom line first and foremost. The impact is just a little more than we bargained for I think. So, I ask for lenience. I don't mean to offend anyone...I just struggle. I don't want to be disappointed, but I can't help it. I think in my mind I set the bar too high based on the BBC scripts. As well, it will be what it will be. When all is said and done I want people to know Narnia for what it is in the books and I want them to have a very clear understanding of Aslan's character over any other. Just my opinion, but there it is.
It's actually really ironic that this is the way things have turned out, because the BBC are renowned for the secularism and staunch opposition to supporting religion, particularly Christianity. So BBC news and documentaries always trash the Christian faith! It is remarkable then how faithful their adaptations were considering!
I think people are just tired of rehashing the same debate over and over.
As for the script, they go through tons of those, one wouldn't be anything to fret about.
Hermit of Archenland
Active member
Huh? Are we living in the same country and watching the same BBC? I really would like to know exactly which news reports and documentaries you're thinking of.
As for the films I was disappointed in LWW because it followed the plot of the book but not it's spirit, and with PC because it followed neither. I'll watch VotDT, but unless it closely follows the book I'll probably give up on the films
I remember when "the kiss" was leaked months in advance of the movie. Everyone opposed it. I did not read a single post anywhere saying that they were ok with Susan and Caspian kissing. There was even a myspace group "against Caspian/Susan romance" or something like that. But like ITW said, the moviemakers did not care about the fans. They really did not. The fan opposition was strong enough but they still fed the fans whatever they wanted.
I am one of who is not posting anymore in the Caspian threads because there is nothing else to say. I was very disappointed. I don't trust them with the world of Narnia anymore.
I am one of who is not posting anymore in the Caspian threads because there is nothing else to say. I was very disappointed. I don't trust them with the world of Narnia anymore.