White Which=kirtle Lady? Jadis is the Emerald Witch

inkspot said:
I think Mr. Beaver knew what he was talking about! Djinn she was.
:)
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*does the steepled-fingers thing*

While in no way wishing to impugn the inestimable expertise of the splendid Mr. Beaver, I'm obliged to ask where we are supposed to think he got the information - and how this ties in with Jadis's Charnese ancestry as it was later established. Which is most plausible: that Jadis was untypical of her race (while physically resembling the other Kings and Queens in the Hall of Thrones); that the people of Charn were all cross-bred from Djinn and Giants; or that Mr. Beaver was merely repeating one of a host of groundless rumours flying around Narnia throughout the hundred years' winter?

*peers over spectacles*

Hmm?

Logic! Why don't they teach logic in these schools?
 
Malacandra said:
Taking these in order:
  1. It's true that there was no-one left alive in Charn except Jadis, and no way anyone but her could have come from Charn to Narnia, so this correctly rules out anyone else from Charn being the GKW. But it doesn't rule out the possibility of descendants (discussed later).
  2. All we know from PC is that Nikabrik, the Hag and the Werewolf all believed that a witch could not be truly destroyed. But if there was no other witch than Jadis, how could they have come by this belief? Not by example, obviously. And however they came by it, is there any evidence that the belief was true - or that these three would have successfully brought Jadis back in material form?
  3. Jadis was seen to successfully disguise herself with magic, but not to transform herself into another creature. Also, in her normal form she was strong enough to break iron with her bare hands - and transforming into a serpent would have been less effective than defending herself in Witch-shape.
  4. Where's the quote for GK having been around since the beginning of Narnia? I don't remember that. Until Aslan killed her, Jadis's body was immortal - ageless, that is; clearly she could be killed - as a result of eating the apple from Aslan's garden. There's no evidence that her spirit was any more or less immortal than anyone else's.
  5. Why would she do this? No-one left in Narnia knew what Jadis looked like, except Aslan, and she could hardly have hoped to deceive him if they had ever met. The GK's physical form was plainly much feebler than Jadis's; it was the work of a moment for the Prince to kill her.
  6. Evil and powerful people have been known to want descendants before now - even if only as feeble copies of themselves that they can feel superior to. It might have pleased Jadis to have great^n-granddaughters running about the place, a race of naturally gifted Witches and none of them more than a feeble and short-lived shadow of their immortal foremother. We don't have direct evidence either way, but my point is that either view can be argued for.

@IceMaiden - We have only Mr Beaver's word for it that Jadis was half a Jinn and half a Giantess. It's highly doubtful that he had direct evidence. :)
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Malacandra, Mr.Beaver said she was a descendant of Lilith and the giants, not giantess and Jinn. Together, Lilith and the giants created the race KNOWN as the Jinn.

And that's the basis of my fanfiction story :D

I personally DO NOT believe that Jadis nor or sister had any descendants. If they did, they would have most likely been on Charn, and again, that world was destroyed in its entirety when she uttered the forbidden word.
 
Malacandra said:
*does the steepled-fingers thing*

While in no way wishing to impugn the inestimable expertise of the splendid Mr. Beaver, I'm obliged to ask where we are supposed to think he got the information - and how this ties in with Jadis's Charnese ancestry as it was later established. Which is most plausible: that Jadis was untypical of her race (while physically resembling the other Kings and Queens in the Hall of Thrones); that the people of Charn were all cross-bred from Djinn and Giants; or that Mr. Beaver was merely repeating one of a host of groundless rumours flying around Narnia throughout the hundred years' winter?

*peers over spectacles*

Hmm?

Logic! Why don't they teach logic in these schools?
Click to expand...


I don't question Mr. Beaver's information since CS Lewis obviously was the one who came up with the theory. And is it really all that important to you? :D
 
IceMaiden said:
I don't question Mr. Beaver's information since CS Lewis obviously was the one who came up with the theory. And is it really all that important to you? :D
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I reserve the right to argue about pointless trivia as long as I like.

That which the character says is not necessarily that which the author knows to be true. C'mon, you know this stuff!

Descendents on Charn? Well, they'd all be dead. But she could've, y'know, done the nasty while she was in Narnia and got children that way...
 
If you read fantasy like George McDonald's "Lillith," I think it leaves a world of possibility open for how she might have populated Charn with djinn.

Beaver knows his stuff. He rocks. :)
 
While I may deeply respect C.S. Lewis' writing ability and his extensive knowledge of Christian theology and philosophy, I believe that the use of and understanding of the nature and origin of the race known as the Jinn is a bit lacking in some respects. As some may know the Jinn are a race of beings made of a smokeless fire, first mentioned amongst the Arabs. In occult literature they are divided into subraces based on their alignment with one of the four Platonic elements. They were not created as the offspring of Lilith and Giants, but by God. The only Giants I've heard of Biblically (since Judaeo-Christian mythology was the basis for a lot of the CON legends,etc.) would be the offspring of the Nephillim (fallen angels) and the daughters of man. Lilith, at least according to my understanding, procreated with both these half-breeds and normal humans (those mentioned in Genesis [the people of Nod, etc. {not Adam and Eve's offspring}]). She didn't stay with Adam, 'cause she wouldn't, to put it bluntly, submit to him. So I can't really see how the Beaver's tales are true, unless the demons that we hear that Lilith procreated with (besides her other husbands) are actually the Jinn mentioned in the CON, all based on whether or not Lewis had a deep knowledge of the Hermetic Sciences, (which do make mention of a Djinn, the king of the fire element, along with his servants, the Ifrits) or Islam. This might make some sense, but at least as far as I know, a clear explanation wasn't provided, just rumours provided by various characters, most notably the Beavers. Just thought I might explain a little about the Jinn, though I'm sure you all have at least some aquaintance with the REAL Jinn, as presented in the Islamic tradition, to which I adhere. I personally would think it uber cool if the Emerald Whitch were Jadis in disguise, 'cause she didn't get enough screen time in my opinion (only two novels). Well, geuss that's it.

See ya on the flipside,

Cyon Corell

Iarri Acolyte
And
Student Mage

http://www.fatumoperandi.org

http://www.theveritasacademy.net
 
Welcome to the discussion, Cyon. You are one smart cookie.
:)
I have a djinn in my shrimp story ... but for my purposes, he is just one of the "sons of heaven" which I think they told us over in the Islam thread is what the djinn are ...
 
For now, I'm going to stick with the Beavers' idea that the Jinn were descended from giants and Lilith because that is at the core of my fanfic story. Although your facts there are very interesting, Cyon, and something that I did not know anything about.


And as far as the Green Kirtle Lady, I already have theories in my head as to how to explain her existence and her relationship with Jadis, which of course, will make its way into my fanfic in future chapters. They will definitely be related by blood. :D
 
Sweet!
your story is so cool.

And, to stay on topic, I don't think they could have been the same person because Aslan killed Jadis at the end of LWW.
 
inkspot said:
And, to stay on topic, I don't think they could have been the same person because Aslan killed Jadis at the end of LWW.
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Gosh, if only I'd thought of that single vital point. :rolleyes:

I agree, but there's no end of argument about how the White Witch could have been brought back to life. You have read the thread, yes? :p
 
so have we reached any conclusions here? I would agree that the WW and the witch in the SC are not the same person. The WW is too much of an egomaniac not to brag that she was not completely defeated by Aslan. There are some similarities in them both being evil but there are too many differences for them to be the same person.

But what about the origin of the WW that we see in the MN and mr. beavers' comment about her origin? Do these match up? if so, how? did cs lewis make a mistake or just change it for the sake of writing the last book?
 
Little reminder when Aslan takes some one out it is for good. He decides who lives or dies. Aslan killed Jadis!! The thought though probably came from the chronicles themselves where Lewis said that they were doubtlessly of the same type. Maybe the Lady of the Green Kirdle trained under Jadis.
 
You'll probably find that the only place it is "written" is in the cover blurb. There's no indication in the text itself. People who write cover blurbs are employed by the publishing firm and sometimes know very little about the book.
 
Let me repeat here what I said to LifeMaiden in her story thread. When I read a Russian-language translation of "The Silver Chair," the translator proved to have taken an unauthorized (no pun intended) liberty: he made the Russian text say that the Green Witch WAS Jadis herself. I wrote to Douglas Gresham to tell him about this, pointing out that it would compromise Aslan's omnipotence if Jadis could come back after He killed her. But Mr. Gresham, whatever his reasons, told me that it didn't bother him.
 
The character and cast names? What, they have some kind of list? If so, it was drawn up by the publisher, not Lewis, and is a mistake. The text itself does not state that they are the same, nor does it give any indication or even hint to that effect.
 
PrinceOfTheWest said:
The character and cast names?
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Yeah, it was befor book one and it was something like "Jadis is very dangerous as you can see in "Magician's Nephew", LWW and Silver Chair"...
But it was from the publisher, not the author, of course. I remember than in BBC series the witches were different.
 
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