Y'know, MrBob, this is a very good point, and one that I hadn't noticed before. Thanks for pointing it out.
Are the Emerald Witch and the White Witch the same person.
- Thread starter Josh
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Lossëndil
Well-known member
I think she was actually killed. The hag is like those people nowadays that claim that they can talk to your dead geat-grandfather. Maybe the hag is able to call up an evil spirit of some sort, but not the WW. Aslan killed her, end of story. I trust that Aslan did his job properly.
I agree with that. Too many people put far too much stock in that comment by the hag. Lewis himself pointed out that there's wishful thinking in hell, so I doubt he meant to make any kind of statements about the metaphysical realities of Narnia. That the WW could have even been brought back in some spectral form is doubtful; that she could be resurrected is virtually impossible.
Then there's always MrBob's point, which is the most clearly compelling argument I've ever heard to settle the matter - and so obvious that I'm kicking myself for not having spotted it myself. Construction of Underworld and the intricate nets of the Lady of the Green Kirtle would have taken at least a hundred years, and probably more. Even with an army of slaves, one doesn't build an entire realm in a few decades. Yet a few decades were all that would have elapsed between the end of the Telmarine interregnum and the kidnapping of Rilian. The Queen of Underworld was certainly very much alive - and already powerful - when Caspian and his soldiers fought off the suggestion that the WW be "brought back". There is no possibility that they were the same person.
Then there's always MrBob's point, which is the most clearly compelling argument I've ever heard to settle the matter - and so obvious that I'm kicking myself for not having spotted it myself. Construction of Underworld and the intricate nets of the Lady of the Green Kirtle would have taken at least a hundred years, and probably more. Even with an army of slaves, one doesn't build an entire realm in a few decades. Yet a few decades were all that would have elapsed between the end of the Telmarine interregnum and the kidnapping of Rilian. The Queen of Underworld was certainly very much alive - and already powerful - when Caspian and his soldiers fought off the suggestion that the WW be "brought back". There is no possibility that they were the same person.
whitelion_bella
New member
let me inform you guys that there is something else that is kind of, how can i put this, similar to Jadis/white witch's personality.
the lady of the green kirtle named her horse 'snowflake'
now, what do you think about this?
the lady of the green kirtle named her horse 'snowflake'
now, what do you think about this?
~Lava~
Well-known member
Who says that she named it? For all we know, Rilian could have named her. She could have been given her by the Harfang giants; Snowflake could have been Rilian's second horse. Then again the Green Lady could have been enthralled by the Northern Witch who actually accomplished the goal that Lewis attributes to all northern witches.
I agree with Mr. Bob, the Green Witch could not have been Jadis because Jadis was dead at the time of Caspian's Coronation. The Green Lady was her own separate enitity long before this since words don't wear off of stone in 50 years.
I agree with Mr. Bob, the Green Witch could not have been Jadis because Jadis was dead at the time of Caspian's Coronation. The Green Lady was her own separate enitity long before this since words don't wear off of stone in 50 years.
Josh
New member
Finally, the WW and the LOTGK don't even ACT REMOTELY SIMILARLY. If they were the same, I think they'd have similar characteristics, besides being evil witches.
Well it could be that Jadis realized being an angry ice queen that shouts all of the time, doesnt work well. She was defeated in both the Magician's Nephew and The Lion the Witch, and the Wardrobe. So it could be that she changed her methods in order to find a better way to carry out her evil plans.
Fair enough. But why couldn't the Green Lady be Jadis 'revived from the dead!?'. This is why the hag says 'you can never really kill her', becuase she can be revived in different forms from the dead.
I think when Aslan defeated Jadis in LWW, it was like Jesus defeating Satan on the cross. Although he was defeated he wasn't destroyed, and won't be till Judgement Day. Similarly, Jadis destruction wasn't final until LB. That's just my thoughts. I even wonder wether Tash was another of her forms...
That's really stretching it there, WHB. Satan is an immortal spiritual being, while Jadis was mortal. She'd have no power to bring herself back from the dead, or to survive death, for that matter.
Where's your evidence for her mortality in the books?
It's only my own imagination. It's just what I like to think and I don't believe the books say otherwise, and as long as that's the case I shall think as I like
Eating an apple prevented her from suffering natural death, but it didn't prevent her from being killed by Aslan, and it didn't empower her to take on another form.
What you guys are doing is all kinds of crazy speculating that has absolutely no support in the texts. You're spinning ideas about what Lewis intended by the character, but you have nothing from the stories themselves to build on. The only scrap of hint Lewis puts in the text connecting the two is an offhand comment about "those Northern Witches" [note : plural]. That's it. Beyond that, zip, nada, nothing.
You can imagine a world where this kind of stuff goes on, but don't call it Narnia.
What you guys are doing is all kinds of crazy speculating that has absolutely no support in the texts. You're spinning ideas about what Lewis intended by the character, but you have nothing from the stories themselves to build on. The only scrap of hint Lewis puts in the text connecting the two is an offhand comment about "those Northern Witches" [note : plural]. That's it. Beyond that, zip, nada, nothing.
You can imagine a world where this kind of stuff goes on, but don't call it Narnia.
MrBob
Well-known member
"She acts different because she realized the way she acted before didnt get her anywhere. So she tried to be a deceptful seductress instead of a loud and angry ice queen."
She was a horribly sore loser in Charn. Mind you, she was always on the lookout for the worst possible way to win.
When trying to persuade Digory to eat the apple or gve it to his mother, she used seducing language just as she had used with Edmund. She found the one thing that was his weakness, in Digory's case, his mother, and suggested that he use the apple to make her well instead of bringing it to Aslan.
She stayed "friendly" as long as it helped her. She was angry when her seduction didn't take hold.
The Green Lady, on the other hand much preferred to stay the seductress. When she got angry, she turned into the snake (Hey, she's green and changes when she gets angry--the Incredible Hulkess?)
"Then there's always MrBob's point, which is the most clearly compelling argument I've ever heard to settle the matter - and so obvious that I'm kicking myself for not having spotted it myself. "
PotW, I just thought of that last night. I'm surprised I never thought of it myself.
MrBob
She was a horribly sore loser in Charn. Mind you, she was always on the lookout for the worst possible way to win.
When trying to persuade Digory to eat the apple or gve it to his mother, she used seducing language just as she had used with Edmund. She found the one thing that was his weakness, in Digory's case, his mother, and suggested that he use the apple to make her well instead of bringing it to Aslan.
She stayed "friendly" as long as it helped her. She was angry when her seduction didn't take hold.
The Green Lady, on the other hand much preferred to stay the seductress. When she got angry, she turned into the snake (Hey, she's green and changes when she gets angry--the Incredible Hulkess?)
"Then there's always MrBob's point, which is the most clearly compelling argument I've ever heard to settle the matter - and so obvious that I'm kicking myself for not having spotted it myself. "
PotW, I just thought of that last night. I'm surprised I never thought of it myself.
MrBob
I apologise for my speculations, I'll try to be more narrow minded in future!
I'm only messing, perhaps you're right.Just out of interest though, we see that Jadis does have the power to change her form cos she makes herself into a stump in LWW.
Elentari
New member
Just a random picky little thought here, but could we please correctly quote the hag? She says "...who ever heard of a witch that really died? You can always get them back". Then they attempt to prepare the blue circle. Even the hag knew the only way to bring the witch back was black magic. When she "came back" in the movie she wasn't completely alive then either.
As for the LOTGK's horse being named Snowflake...It's a white horse. Chances are, though she might have named the horse, it's more probable that Rilian did since she didn't care much for anything other than herself.
As for the LOTGK's horse being named Snowflake...It's a white horse. Chances are, though she might have named the horse, it's more probable that Rilian did since she didn't care much for anything other than herself.
Hmmmm... now, I've had a thought having mulled over this concept for some time.
We know that Lewis was very into classical mythology and used a lot of it as inspiration for his books. Now, I was doing a bit of research on Jinns and on Lillith and was interested to find that taking the form of a snake is a common feature to both! Also, we find that Lillith is renowned for her seduction and temptation. Both of these seem to fit with the temperement of the green lady.
However, we know that Jadis was half jinn, and so it would seem right that SHE possessed those qualities rather than the green lady... unless of course, she WAS the green lady!?
We know that Lewis was very into classical mythology and used a lot of it as inspiration for his books. Now, I was doing a bit of research on Jinns and on Lillith and was interested to find that taking the form of a snake is a common feature to both! Also, we find that Lillith is renowned for her seduction and temptation. Both of these seem to fit with the temperement of the green lady.
However, we know that Jadis was half jinn, and so it would seem right that SHE possessed those qualities rather than the green lady... unless of course, she WAS the green lady!?
And furthermore, she was first seen on a grassy knoll!
WHB, you crack me up!
We're all fortunate that Lewis' mention of Lilith was only glancing, and he didn't go into detail about what Arabic mythology says about her, and when she visits, and what she does afterward. Hardly appropriate for a family forum, eh?
WHB, you crack me up!
We're all fortunate that Lewis' mention of Lilith was only glancing, and he didn't go into detail about what Arabic mythology says about her, and when she visits, and what she does afterward. Hardly appropriate for a family forum, eh?
Sven-El
Well-known member
Or for a children's book. And keep in mind her origin was more or less retconed. For all we know Jadis simply made the claims of her parentage herself.
My goodness you're right!! Sharp observation skills PotW!!
potw said:
Yes, you are perhaps right. Though I'm sticking to my sinking ship of a story like the captain on the Titanic. I will NOT abandon it while there's still hope.
monsieur bobbe said:
Hmmm... however. If I stretch my hypothesis even more. Maybe the daughters of Lillith only got to Charn by means of Atlantis and the Wood between the Worlds (backing up the MN theory). They entered Charn and intermingled with giants and eventually gained control of that world. Ending with Jadis, who Digory brought to Narnia and then terrorised that world throughout it's history!
IT all makes perfect and logical sense! What do they teach in schools these days...sven el said:
And you, sir, sound positively English in your cynicism.