Are the Emerald Witch and the White Witch the same person.

~Lava~ said:
A lot of things move after they die, are we to say that the snake that flopped all over after it died in Swiss Family Robinson was also a witch in disguise.
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Of course not; The Swiss Family Robinson wasn't a fantasy novel (and more's the pity). I don't know what generally happens to the animal forms of evil Narnian non-humans when they die; SC is the first time we see such a thing happen. It's certainly possible that they all writhe around, or that the snakes do; it's also possible that they don't unless they're not really dead. We can't generalize from that example, which is why I think you can offer it up as evidence for either side.

The quote from MN--"endless days like a goddess"--wouldn't throw up such a red flag for me if they weren't written after Jadis had apparently died; why not throw in an "until I kill her" or "unless she meets with an accident that prevents her from living"? I think (as I have said before) it's highly suspect to assume she's dead and gone forever and that's what Lewis wanted; I think it's just as suspect to assume she's still alive and kicking (or, uh, slithering?) later on in the series and that that's what Lewis wanted.
 
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Animus Wyrmis said:
Exactly. I'm not sure how he meant "endless days like a goddess"; he certainly may have meant to leave the whole thing ambiguous. (I totally would have if I were Lewis; not only would that have meant the possibility of bringing her back again if I ever wanted it, but it would mean I could sit around watching my readers argue about it for years to come!)
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I agree with you there! Besides, if things weren't ambiguous we wouldn't have anything to discuss. However, he did say like a "goddess" with a lowercase G. This leads me to think that he was referencing goddess of mythology (like Greek or Norse) which I think can sometimes be killed.

I don't know what generally happens to the animal forms of evil Narnian non-humans when they die; SC is the first time we see such a thing happen. It's certainly possible that they all writhe around, or that the snakes do; it's also possible that they don't unless they're not really dead. We can't generalize from that example, which is why I think you can offer it up as evidence for either side.
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See, whenever I read fantasy, I assume that the book follows all the laws of nature that ours does until the author specifically tells me otherwise. I assume Marshwiggle blood is red until the book says that it's purple, and I assume Narnia's gravity is the same as ours until the book says something different. Things twitch and move after they die in our world, so I don't think it's likely to be any different in Narnia. Mostly, I think Lewis meant it to be creepy that the snake was still writhing, not a sign that it was still alive.
 
how about that gods and goddesses are kept alive by belief? once people stop believing in them their powers fail and so they fade away.
The LoGK (i don't like emerald witch sorry - reminds me too much of little kids' stories) could be a faded version of the white witch - people think she is dead and don't believe in her anymore. And she can die properly because of this.
 
See, here is the deal, Lewis does not say "endless days like a goddess" and make me think that she cannot die at all. I see that and think: "Okay, so this fruit makes her like the elves of Tolkien, not dying unless they are killed."

I see "we can always get them back" and say: "well here is this evil being saying that they can get back an evil being." If I recall correctly, the line about "we can always get them back" was tempered by this line following it "So that is your plan, Nikabrik! Black Sorcery and the calling up of an accursed ghost"(PC 13, further down on the same page). In Screwtape, Lewis says "There is wishful thinking in Hell as well as on Earth" (Screwtape preface).

I will also note that snakes do have a tendancy to writhe after death, especially when death is caused by the slicing off of the head, I have personally seen it quite a bit (I live on a farm and snakes tend to be stupid).

One more thing, Dryads & Hamadryads are called the gods and goddesses of the forest in PC but in LB we find that these gods and goddesses can be killed.
 
And I think that her writhing after her head's been chopped can definitely be interpreted as simply moving after death. (You see here my bias for not coming down on either side--I think they can both be argued against; if it were a matter of say, fanfiction, I would accept either view.) Unlike you, MRW, I don't think we should necessarily accept real world-type laws as canon...would Narnia still be flat without VotDT? (And I totally get that this is a personal quirk of mine; I take a very restrictive stance on canon.)

Re: Caspian's comment--I'm not sure how we can take his word over the hag's, when he apparently hasn't learned magic (not fit for princes!), and she's, well, a hag. I would also note that instead of saying, "Don't be an idiot, hag," everyone *freaks* and Edmund and Peter come rushing in. Whether or not the threat is credible, it isn't laughed off.

I do agree that it all seems to hinge on how much weight you give to the "goddess" comment! I don't remember any stories of Greek goddesses being killed (Uranus and Cronus aside, but I'm not sure they count), but I could certainly be wrong. I would point out that we don't see other god/esses dying in Narnia--Tash is banished, but I don't remember him being destroyed. I tend to interpret it as actually like a goddess--if he simply meant "endless days until she is destroyed", why not say so? You can certainly see it that way, Lava, and I don't think you're wrong; I just don't think those who think that literally means she isn't going to die are wrong either.

But the dryads are tied to their trees, are they not? I mean, they're literally tied to a physical thing that can be killed. I'm not sure that's the same thing.
 
I still don't see how you can call up the spirit of a living person, I have never seen it done in any fairytale of weight or consequence.

It is clear to me that:

First off, the LotGK had to have been around long before Caspian was huddling in the cellar of Aslan's How talking to a hag as a last ditch effort to win a battle (as the old saying goes "Rome was not built in a day"). To have the sort of infrastructure that the Lady has underground and the relationship that she has with the giants is the work of many, many years; above and beyond the 70 or so years that she would have had if she had been brought back to life by the hag.

Secondly, all the evidence (saving a few cast off statements by people throughout the books which do not necessarily point to any oneness of the two) points that they were different. Can you imagine Jadis (in any of the books we see her in) treating a human like we see the Lady doing, I cannot. Nor can I see Jadis making a realization that her imperial manners are not well recieved. The Lady of the Green Kirtle has courtly manners and treats her guests much better than the White Witch ever did; she was capable of Human feelings, Jadis was not.
 
Animus Wyrmis said:
Unlike you, MRW, I don't think we should necessarily accept real world-type laws as canon...would Narnia still be flat without VotDT? (And I totally get that this is a personal quirk of mine; I take a very restrictive stance on canon.)
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I think you misunderstood what I was saying.

I assume that any fictional world operates by the natural laws of our world only until there is canon evidence in a novel that points me in another direction.

Take your VDT example: until we read VDT, there was no reason to assume that the world of Narnia is anything other than round. I don't recall any evidence in the previous two books that points to it, and before this fact became canon, speculating that Narnia was a flat world just wouldn't have made any sense. Sure, it was always a possibility, because up until that point Lewis hadn't said anything either way. But Narnia certainly wasn't more likely to be flat just because it's a fantasy world and the real world is round.

In much the same way, it is possible that the writhing of the snake's body means that it's still alive, but it is terribly unlikely. Things in the natural world die when their heads get cut off. Their bodies frequently retain movement for a short time afterward ("running around like a chicken with its head cut off" isn't a saying for nothing). I don't recall Lewis writing anything in the Chronicles that implies a creature can be headless and survive. Thus, I must assume (until I am presented with fictional evidence that contradicts natural law) that the Lady is well and truly dead.

~Lava~ said:
To have the sort of infrastructure that the Lady has underground and the relationship that she has with the giants is the work of many, many years; above and beyond the 70 or so years that she would have had if she had been brought back to life by the hag.
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According to the Narnian Timeline, there was only fifty years between PC and TSC, which gives her even LESS time to complete everything, making it that much more unlikely.

I still think that the biggest evidences that they are not the same person are that their personalities are COMPLETELY different (as are their methods of operation and the types of magic they perform) and that Lewis didn't have very strong implications that they were the same person. They were the "same type," which grammatically implies that they have to be two different people.
 
While I don't put any stock in the Narnia timelines out there (even the ones that claim they are "Lewis Originated" directly contradict Lewis's writing), I was putting the absolute maximum year value that I could concieve of with regards my writing seventy years. I actually have reasons to doubt that it was seventy years in between the two but if seventy years is not enough time to build an Underground Empire (and it isn't) how much faith can we stock in the "same person" theory.

I also agree with you that grammatically, Lewis implies that they are different entities. There is more to support that they are blood-related than that they are the same.

However, if the Green Witch is related to Jadis, then how come she is never described as being incredibly tall (remember, Jadis is part giantess)?
 
For which I love him dearly. But he does mention things that are important to the plot or understanding of the character, such as Jadis' height and bare arms and Shasta's fair skin.
 
True. Does LWW or MN ever say just how much taller than normal Jadis is? I'm too lazy to look for it right now.
 
Animus Wyrmis said:
The other thing that gives me pause is that both witches go after Narnia with nefarious plots, but never seem to have plans of expansion. The White Witch, for instance, never bothers to take over Calormen. And I don't remember the Emerald Witch wanting to either (please, correct me if I'm wrong). And if I were an evil witch who knew that anyone who goes up against Narnia invariably winds up having to deal with Aslan, I would probably shelve that plan and take over the rest of the world first, if my plan was simply power. A personal vendetta, on the other hand, might cause me to try for Narnia again and again.
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A possible explanation for this is that there is something special about the land of Narnia that means that whoever rules it dominates that world.
Perhaps the reason is that it remains closest to what Aslan originally intended at the creation before Diggory and the others arrived from England and mucked things up?
The real intent of both White Witch and Emerald Witch is ultimately to supplant Aslan, making themselves Queens of Narnia is a major step in that direction.
 
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I agree with that evaluation. It seems clear, especially from the creation account in Nephew, that the land of Narnia was in some way the "heart" of that universe. It was created first, upon it was bestowed the gift of talking beasts, living trees, and divine waters. It was the center of that universe, so whoever ruled that land had a special leverage over the remainder of the lands.
 
In addition, if you think of the dealing of Narnia with Calormen, you see that Calormen is definitely the stronger nation and also the least magical. I almost get the impression that because Calormen is a lot like our societies, the two witches power would not be of much use there.
 
Animus Wyrmis said:
The other thing that gives me pause is that both witches go after Narnia with nefarious plots, but never seem to have plans of expansion. The White Witch, for instance, never bothers to take over Calormen.
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Well, LWW was originally a stand-alone novel. Lewis mentions that there are other countries in the world, but I don't believe he'd actually considered what and where they are at that point.

~Lava~ said:
I almost get the impression that because Calormen is a lot like our societies, the two witches power would not be of much use there.
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This is probably true. When Jadis came into our world, she utterly failed to impress or intimidate anyone except Uncle Andrew -- a magician.

Additionally, taking Narnia first seems to be the smartest move tactically, whether or not she planned on expanding.

She'd established a truce with the giants, so they didn't need to be dealt with. She could have probably taken over Calormen without too much trouble because they'd just have to fend for themselves. However, when it comes to Archenland and Narnia, they're sister countries. It was one of King Frank's sons who founded Archenland, and thus they've always been allies. If the Lady tried to move north from Calormen to Archenland, Narnia would come to their aide and trounce her (a la Rabadash).

Starting with Archenland would be even worse, becuase she wouldn't have the Calormen army supporting her.

However, starting with Narnia works because I get the impression that Archenland isn't strong enough to be much help. If they go north to help the Narnians, Calormen is likely to come up from the south and attack them while they're preoccupied. Their force is going to be divided, and things just won't go well for them. If the Lady then tries to move south, Archenland is likely to betray Calormen and help Narnia, even if their ruler IS a usurper, just because it's Narnia.

Of course, tactics aside, the Lady wasn't planning to take Narnia entirely by force. She had Rillian as the puppet king, after all. That wasn't going to work quite as well with the other two countries.

And, from a narrative perspective, these are the Chronicles of Narnia. The reader isn't going to care if an evil ruler takes over Calormen, because we're already supposed to believe the Tisroc is evil, and we haven't learned enough about Archenland to properly care about it either.
 
Eek, I go away for a day and all sorts of interesting and brilliant things get said! (Seriously. Y'all are so smart, it's making me giddy.) And I apologize, because this got *wordy* (which is totally not my fault. You try writing brief responses when there's a bear in your yard eating things).

As Lava says:
I still don't see how you can call up the spirit of a living person, I have never seen it done in any fairytale of weight or consequence.​
Really? You can certainly call up people who lived in Narnia many years ago and are still living now--or at least, Caspian does. And as for the Witch, they simply say "Call her up"--which could mean "Call up her dead spirit, and we're all in trouble if she's not" or "Call up her living spirit, and we're all in trouble if she's dead" or "Call her up wherever and however she is". We simply don't know--the hag says they needn't mind about her being dead; we don't know if that's because she has an awful spell to bring back the dead, or an awful spell that will bring someone back, alive *or* dead, or because she's a sneaky hag and knows the Witch is alive.

First off, the LotGK had to have been around long before Caspian was huddling in the cellar of Aslan's How talking to a hag as a last ditch effort to win a battle (as the old saying goes "Rome was not built in a day"). To have the sort of infrastructure that the Lady has underground and the relationship that she has with the giants is the work of many, many years; above and beyond the 70 or so years that she would have had if she had been brought back to life by the hag.​
I will confess that I have no idea how long it takes an indeterminate number of gnomes to build an indeterminate amount of buildings from an unknown starting point, nor do I have any idea how long it would take a witch (who may or may not have been part giantess herself) to create that type of relationship with giants. :) I will point out that the gnomes are either long-lived or the spell did something to their ages, because apparently after seventy (or whatever) years they can still remember Bism--that is, they weren't born in captivity. (Now I want a fic where they all get back to Bism and it's been, like, three hundred years and everyone they know is dead.)

I will also say that she's had a thousand years and more, if it is Jadis, to learn how to behave in a rather better manner. She does, you know, know how to charm a child in LWW, when she was totally incapable of wheedling in MN; perhaps it's not hard to believe that she could learn in that long how to flirt with a man. And if I were alive that long? Believe me, I wouldn't still be looking the same. :) (How much taller *is* Jadis than a normal person?)

MRW says:
I assume that any fictional world operates by the natural laws of our world only until there is canon evidence in a novel that points me in another direction.​
I don't, not in other world scenarios. If a book is set on Earth in 2008, I assume that (say) gravity is still 9.8 m/s/s; but in Narnia? I don't assume that's *canon*. (There's a difference here--that is, if you were like, pre-VotDT, "I think I'll create a model of Narnia" and decided to make it round, I certainly wouldn't tell you not to! But I would argue if you assumed that was *canon*.) You're right that it's probably more likely; but likely and canon isn't the same thing at all. With the example of the Lady--as I have said, she might be well and truly dead. Or she might not. I simply don't take either way as *canon*, especially if I were following the Jadis!Lady theory.

AsbelMctalisker says:
A possible explanation for this is that there is something special about the land of Narnia that means that whoever rules it dominates that world.
Perhaps the reason is that it remains closest to what Aslan originally intended at the creation before Diggory and the others arrived from England and mucked things up?
The real intent of both White Witch and Emerald Witch is ultimately to supplant Aslan, making themselves Queens of Narnia is a major step in that direction.​
Ooh! That's a really really really interesting idea! That would be possibly the coolest fic in the history of the world. But you know--Narnia doesn't ever expand its borders, and by LWW...and PC...and TLB...it seems to have trouble keeping itself organized, let alone being more powerful than those around it or having any sort of leverage over her neighbors. And yes--both witches want to be rulers of Narnia. But seriously, why? It seems odd to me that two women with relations with giants would show up and decide to take everything they could, just to have Narnia. Jadis doesn't even bother to take Archenland! It seems sort of personal, and I find that interesting. And the Green Lady, at least, would be able to take Calormen, I think. Especially if her plan is to rule from behind her man--that would totally work there. And if one is taking over the world...well, Narnia's never managed to annex anything that we know have, but Calormen's done pretty well in TLB and Telmar did awesomely. If I were planning on taking over? I wouldn't start with Narnia because of a gigantic lion that would insist on showing up.

(MRW--on a total plot side, of *course* evil witches need to take over Narnia. I mean, who cares if the Galma is being besieged? Not me! It's sort of...yes, Jadis becomes fleshed out in ways that don't really make sense with MN, because that's how writing prequels works when one didn't intend to. But the problem for me is that now we're stuck with a bunch of stuff that's there for plot reasons, and I want to meld it into something that works in terms of characters, because that's how my mind works.)

I really think (and, um, I'm afraid people might be getting the idea here that I really think Jadis is a) alive/around/not totally gone at the end of LWW and b) shows up in SC to be freakishly scary--I don't necessarily) that there are two* different parts we're debating: Is Jadis still around at the end of LWW? And does she come back in SC? Obviously you need the former to have the latter, but I don't have a real opinion on them. I think there's enough evidence to say no to both, or yes to both, or no to the latter and yes to the former. If it were a fic (er, Biographies of Scary Narnian Witches?) I would happily read any of the three. But I don't think it's at all conclusive enough to come down on any side with a canon! stamp.

*Possibly three. I was on livejournal a while ago and apparently some people think there were three witches, because of the differences in Jadis's backstory between MN and LWW.
 
Originally posted by Animus Wyrmis:
She does, you know, know how to charm a child in LWW, when she was totally incapable of wheedling in MN; perhaps it's not hard to believe that she could learn in that long how to flirt with a man.
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Is she capable of charming a child, or is it that she scared him so much at first that he decided that he had to obey her and then pressed her advantages? I will note that she did not try to bargain with Ed until after he had eaten of "her food" (a food that will make you so desparately want it that you will sell out your family and throw your sister's friends to the dogs for it); in all honesty, she did nothing short of use black magic to make Ed believe that she was a nice person. Lewis very clearly states that the White Witch has no humanity in her; the implications of that are that she is incapable of being humane or of human feelings. The White Witch would not labor herself with seeking out a man to rule the kingdom through; she was a "great queen" she said so herself in the chapter "Deplorable Word" in MN. Nay, she does not need a man to be her puppet; she is Jadis. I would argue that Jadis was unchanged from the time of MN to the time of LWW in both her manor and her civilities.

Two other things:

Jadis' voice is described as calm (in the first meeting with her) and imperious (elsewhere); never bell-like (used to describe LotGK's voice on more than one occasion).

And according to the chapter "Deplorable Word": the White Witch is 7 feet tall "perhaps because Uncle Andrew was not seven feet tall..."(Deplorable Word; Magician's Nephew right after Jadis finishes her speel about how great Queens are above the law).
 
As you know, I think Jadis and LotGK are the same person. For the reasons Animus stated and more.

People complain about her difference in temperament but this is easily explained. Jadis knows following her defeat in LWW that only someone of 'Adam's flesh and Adam's bone' can rule Narnia. That's why she bides her time during the Telmarine invasion and such to hatch her new plan. In this one she plans to marry a human and control him so, although he will rule in name, she will be the power!

I believe when the hag plans to 'call up' Jadis, she actually would be just bringing the already alive LotGK from her underground lair in the North.
 
And one needs circles and blue fire to this, why?

Another thing is that the Beavers make it clear that any child of Adam and Eve is a threat to her very life, she cannot work through them with out endangering herself:

Remember this: When Adam's Flesh and Adam's bone sit at Cair Paravel in throne the evil time will be over and done.

Jadis only worked through Ed because she knew that he was completely under her power due to his ever increasing lust for her magic food. Her power is not worth beans when a Son of Adam is on the throne at Cair.
 
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