Are the Emerald Witch and the White Witch the same person.

Johnny, even if she was a "Daughter of Lilith" That doesn't mean that she was any more related to Jadis as you and I are. As far as I know, you and I are related through the Lady Eve and the Lord Adam and not much further (unless weirdly, yours and my geneology crosses after that).
 
Johnny, even if she was a "Daughter of Lilith" That doesn't mean that she was any more related to Jadis as you and I are. As far as I know, you and I are related through the Lady Eve and the Lord Adam and not much further (unless weirdly, yours and my geneology crosses after that).

No. Because only one daughter of Lillith entered Narnia that we know of. I spose you could say others may have entered through the 'chinks and chasms' Aslan mentioned, but that's just as theoretical an answer.
 
Nobody said the White Witch died without ever having ... well ... done things I can't describe in detail on a family friendly forum.

How do we know the Lady of the Emerald Kirtle isn't a DESCENDENT of Jadis? Therefore partly the same species. Maybe having a family resemblance?

Of course she probably didn't make her Snooky-Uckums a king, but Percy was probably one of those few men that ever scratched Maugrim's tummy to watch his leg kick whilst she whipped up some Bubble and Squeek in the kitchen.

It's also very likely that when she said "Time to take out the rubbish, Ducky Lover" that he didn't have to be asked twice. Even if it were hailing outside in the dark on a monday. While he was sick with flu and suffering from a mild case of broken leg....

Somewhere along the way, he probably got caught raiding the refrigerator at midnight and was fed to the secret police...after being slain, if she wasn't in a particularly nasty mood...while daughter dearest grew up and went to find herself new digs (literally). When Mum Mum got her head bitten off, Princess began seeing her stock portfolio going up, up, up...

I mean, think about it....
 
They say the Lady is the same type as Jadis. Jadis can't be the ONLY giant/Jinn cross in Narnian history. Even the hag in LWW provides evidence that there was more than one witch. "Who ever heard of a witch that really died? You can always get them back." Obviously, there's more than one. I've always liked EveningStar's theory -- that the Lady is Jadis' descendent. Ultimately, I don't think it matters HOW she got into Narnia. After all, we neither know (nor really care) where the hags and the werewolves and all of the other evil creatures came from. There are plenty of other places in the Narnian world for them to originate from.

Additionally, events in TMN can't completely be taken into account because, as Sven-El said, Lewis retconned Jadis' origin. TMN was written AFTER SC, after all.
 
We also know that there were more "chinks and Chasms" and that the Jinns (or at least Lilith) knew how to manipulate them. I still think that she was the prodgeny of an Evil Plant Spirit (are the evil ones also driads?) and a human (or a Jinn if you want it that way).
 
~Lava~ said:
I still think that she was the prodgeny of an Evil Plant Spirit (are the evil ones also driads?) and a human (or a Jinn if you want it that way).

That's really interesting. What makes you think so?
 
I think that an interesting speculation - that the "green" involved was somehow related, however distantly, to chlorophyll! Lewis makes clear that there are such things as evil plants who have spirits (see the description of the execution of Aslan at the Stone Table.) It seems to me from the sparse hints that the "green" of the Lady had more to do with venom, but that does not mean the plant speculation is invalid - there are, after all, poisonous plants!

The serpent thing is another aspect, though, and more closely ties to the venom aspect. Interestingly, I can't think of any other being in the Narnia stories who could alter aspect by nature. Rabadash was changed by Aslan, and the Witch and dwarf were changed by spell involving her wand, but I can't think of another case where any creature could just change shape.
 
That's really interesting. What makes you think so?

The whole green thing is part of it, but living underground waiting to spring up and catch people unaware is rather like weeds in a garden. They are there in seed form for quite awhile waiting for the right moment to germinate and grow, in essence they are living underground. Also a lot of poisonous plants in the rainforest are poisonous because they have a short life span (springing up over night and being gone the next one), and more so, they are often emerald green. The turning into a snake part seems to be something that the Emerald Witch has learned through spells and Black Magic. A vemonmous plant spirit crossed with a human can be very poisonous and very pretty at the same time. After reading the book I always thought of her as a dangerously pretty woman with top-soil colored hair and green eyes.

The only other thing I can think of is that she is some kind of Were-snake.
 
Now that you've explained it, that does make a lot of sense.

I always just thought she was the Emerald Witch because her snake form was green.
 
Well, now that my opinions have been thoroughly ridiculed, I'll leave the matter as it is! :)

I like the were-snake theory! You can have werewolfs so it seems fair enough that the bite of other animals can have the same effect.

Your explanation of the poisonous plant idea is interesting Lava. I'd never thought of that before. The only thing is, I'd always imagined poisonous plants as being a very tropical thing, and so the fact she's from the North seems to make that feel a bit weird. I dunno though...
 
A were snake? But only on nights of the full moon? And would you kill one using a silver garden rake? Or would you cast them out with a spell of power such as "Slither thither!" :D

Talk about A Hiss Before Dying...
 
Poisonous plants live in a good many places, we have poisonous plants all over in my area.

I think that they killed her with a sword, ES.
 
::jumps in, kind of late to the party::

(This is my first post, so I apologize in advance if I screw something up. And I have lots to say, because I've been mulling it over while waiting for my account to activate.)

I don't think there's any definitive canon answer either way--there's plenty of evidence that Jadis and the Emerald Witch are the same, and there's a lot of evidence that they aren't. (I will admit here that I spent years being totally convinced that they were the same, and the first time someone questioned it I was totally flabbergasted.)

To start, there's two biggest points against it, for me:
  1. Jadis is killed by Aslan at the end of the LWW
  2. Jadis and the Emerald Witch act differently--the Emerald Witch is capable of feminine wiles, so to speak, and Jadis apparently isn't.

On the other hand, Jadis ate the apple in MN, giving her "unwearying strength and endless days like a goddess" (MN chapter 14). And in PC, we get the hag assuring us that "who ever heard of a witch that really
died? You can always get them back" (PC 13), and the rest of the company takes that as a serious threat [someone made an excellent point that, were they one person, Jadis should be underground at this point--but I'm not sure we have a definite timeline there, and anyway we aren't sure if the spell is a "bring her back from the dead" spell or a "locate her" spell or what]. As for her death, we don't actually see Jadis die, do we? We see that Aslan has "flung himself upon the White Witch. Lucy saw her face lifted towards him for one second with an expression of terror and amazement. Then Lion and Witch had rolled over together but with the Witch underneath" (LWW 16), and then we cut to the end of the battle, when the Witch's army know "that the Witch was dead [and] they either gave themselves up or took to flight" (LWW 17). And the narrator never actually says the witch is dead--he says her army *saw* that she was dead, which is a different thing altogether. So I would assume that it's possible that, whatever happened to Jadis at the end of LWW, she could be back again later. And while Aslan might be *able* to kill her, we know he follows his own rules, and the line about her being immortal was written after she apparently died. So I think either explanation fits with canon.

The other thing that gives me pause is that both witches go after Narnia with nefarious plots, but never seem to have plans of expansion. The White Witch, for instance, never bothers to take over Calormen. And I don't remember the Emerald Witch wanting to either (please, correct me if I'm wrong). And if I were an evil witch who knew that anyone who goes up against Narnia invariably winds up having to deal with Aslan, I would probably shelve that plan and take over the rest of the world first, if my plan was simply power. A personal vendetta, on the other hand, might cause me to try for Narnia again and again.

I admit that the White Witch and Emerald Witch have different powers, apparently, but then--so does Jadis in MN. And several thousand years is quite long enough, I should think, to learn different and more complicated magic. And there is the interesting inscription from SC that someone else mentioned.

Anyway, I personally think that this is one of those questions that can't be definitively answered either way, because I think both explanations work within the canon we've been given.
 
But in a way you just proved the point against you. You say that Jadis cannot die and so she must be the Emerald Witch and yet the Emerald Witch very clearly dies in SC.
 
But I'm not sure she *does* die, Lava. (And I'm not saying that she must be the Emerald Witch at all! I think it's possible, certainly, but I don't think it's the only possible explanation at all. She could have died; or not quite died and not been the Emerald Witch; or not quite died and come back as the Emerald Witch.) The book says:
With repeated blows they hacked off its head. The horrible thing went on coiling and moving like a bit of wire long after it had died; and the floor, as you may imagine, was a nasty mess.

So they chop of the snake-witch's head, and she still keeps moving, and they assume it's dead--but apparently it can keep moving even so. It's quite possible, I think, that Jadis was *destroyed* here and *destroyed* in LWW, but that that doesn't mean she's necessarily *dead*. Can't she be seriously weakened--her spells destroyed--her snake form killed--without actually being killed?

Edit--that should be "I believe that the witch was *destroyed* here and Jadis was *destroyed* in LWW, but that doesn't mean either of them is necessarily dead. :)
 
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Can't she be seriously weakened--her spells destroyed--her snake form killed--without actually being killed?
I don't see why not. This is MAGIC after all. ^_^ But, like the others said, I'd like to think that Aslan did the job properly the first time. Especially since Lewis didn't originally intend a sequel to LWW.
 
...I'd like to think that Aslan did the job properly the first time. Especially since Lewis didn't originally intend a sequel to LWW.

And if LWW stood on its own, I don't think I would argue that. But in MN--which was the second-to-last-book published, wasn't it?--Lewis sort of retconned that, telling us that because of the apple, Jadis would be given immortality. Now, I don't know how far the limits on that go, but I sort of think that an immortality in which one can be killed is sort of a lame immortality, and--while I don't argue that Aslan would probably have been able to kill her--he does sort of like to follow his own rules (remember when the Dufflepuds turned him invisible and Lucy made him visible?).

If it had just been the LWW, probably we wouldn't be having this conversation. But when one combines LWW with PC and MN, I think there's a strong case to make that Jadis is still around at the conclusion of LWW, regardless of whether she's the Emerald Witch later on. (As I said, I don't think this is a question that has a canonical answer at all; I think there's plenty of evidence both ways.)
 
(As I said, I don't think this is a question that has a canonical answer at all; I think there's plenty of evidence both ways.)
You do have a point. I suppose it all hinges on what Lewis meant when he used the word "immortal." Did he mean completely undestructable? Or did he just mean that she wouldn't die without outside influence (the way lots of authors use the word to refer to vampires)?
 
I suppose it all hinges on what Lewis meant when he used the word "immortal." Did he mean completely undestructable? Or did he just mean that she wouldn't die without outside influence (the way lots of authors use the word to refer to vampires)?

Exactly. I'm not sure how he meant "endless days like a goddess"; he certainly may have meant to leave the whole thing ambiguous. (I totally would have if I were Lewis; not only would that have meant the possibility of bringing her back again if I ever wanted it, but it would mean I could sit around watching my readers argue about it for years to come!)
 
A lot of things move after they die, are we to say that the snake that flopped all over after it died in Swiss Family Robinson was also a witch in disguise.
 
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