Does Susan go to the "New Narnia"?/Whatever happened to Susan?

[inkspot]

What makes you think the "arrested development" Susan experienced in her early adulthood was permanent? If this is what you think -- I cannot quite make out why this essay caused you to despair for Susan?

Her character, throughout the series, is the one most likely to want to turn back or to wish she had never begun the adventure at all, so in keeping with this, she is eventually the one who does turn back. But in every other instance where her strength to go on failed, her brothers and sisters buoyed her up, and she continued on. Perhaps losing them so tragically will make her "grow up" in the true sense, rather than the silly way Lewis describes in the essay, of being overly concerned for "adult" things.

Have you ever noticed how, when someone loses a dear friend or family member in an untimely fashion, they are forced to reflect on spiritual realities rather than the trivia which mostly consumes our lives? What difference does the ringing alarm clock make, or the yakking TV, or the right shade of lipstick, when your parents and/or siblings have been torn away from you through death? At those moments, people are likely to reflect on what's real and what's eternal.

Although Susan's maturity was arrested at a silly stage and she began to value "adult" things just for the sake of being grown-up, in her moment of loss, there's a good chance she would come to her senses and turn back to her foundational reality, which is Aslan/Christ.

 

[PrinceOfTheWest]

Her character, throughout the series, is the one most likely to want to turn back or to wish she had never begun the adventure at all, so in keeping with this, she is eventually the one who does turn back. But in every other instance where her strength to go on failed, her brothers and sisters buoyed her up, and she continued on. Perhaps losing them so tragically will make her "grow up" in the true sense, rather than the silly way Lewis describes in the essay, of being overly concerned for "adult" things.

That's a very good observation, Ink - I'd always known there was something about Susan's temprament which I couldn't quite put my finger on, and you've articulated it well (the fasting must be working, eh?)

You know, we seem to have a couple of threads going on this topic: here's another one.

 

[inkspot]

I have merged the two threads about Susan, I hope it works out okay. Thanks for looking up the older Thread, PoTW, so I could easily blend them.

 

[SailorSaturn13]

if Lewis was a sexist, why would he have made Lucy the beloved of Aslan? Why would he have had a girl be the most faith filled and trust in Aslan even when

Because he was ADULT sexist. In "Horse and his Boy" he states "Lucy is as good as a boy". That means: girls are equal to boys, but women are infer4ior to men. Remember "My Fair Lady"? Like Higgins, Lewis thought "Why can't a woman be more like a man?" Young siblings remain close, but Peter and Susan separated: he became the true High King, she got nothing.

from the start (I do not speak of the movie but of the books) Susan was always the logical one and she always had to have a solid explanation fro everything.

Yes, and for Lewis it was bad. He liked blind belief more. The Example with gnome s from LB is also wrong: had Susan been there , she would see the truth.

If we are basing her actions on her personality it is also necessary to note that Susan was considered "Queen Susan the Gentle." This denotes to me that Su was indeed gentle of heart, which can also be translated into "sensitive of heart." That means that she was of sweet temperment, and a soft heart - soft hearts are bruised easily. Could it not be her rationalization that was her downfall but her soft heart? That her greatest asset in Narnia would be her greatest downfall in our world?

Exacter: Her greatest strength, Gentleness, binds her to Earth more than to Narnia (even there she was more atttracted to people). Therefore her place is on Earth, not Narnia.

 

[SailorSaturn13]

Again, for Susan, Narnia just did not fit into her view of how "things" ought to be. And, some people are just not cut out or comfortable with an existence

that is "outside the accepted box of reality." This does not mean that Susan rejected Narnia or Aslan. Narnia is/was not heaven. Aslan, to Susan, was not the

Christ. In her rejection of Narnia and Aslan was limited to a choice of ignoring or denying a sphere of existence that belief in the same bordered on mental

instability in the eyes of other people. She walled off or boxed up her Narnia adventures as a means of maintaining her sanity in the "real world."
Imagine being Susan's husband, and the morning after you're married, Susan comes up to you and starts telling you about Narnia. Uh-oh! Time for the men in

little white coats!

And logically, why believe in Narnia if you cannot help anyway?

but it is not as though she was living a blameless life of goodness and love at the same time as denying Aslan.

Except based on her character, it is so.

He(Lewis) sees these "adult mannerisms" for what they are: shows and posturing.
Susan's tragedy wasn't that she traded in Narnia, but what she traded it in for. Imagine how different the dialog would have been if Susan had chosen a more

mature path; say, honorable marriage and motherhood, or charitable work, or even just being a working woman who looked after her duties to parents and others

Except the way to this "mature path" goes through "lipstic phase". Lewis didn't see further - normally the wish to impress makes way to the wish to REALLY help... especially if the character is as empathic as Susan.

Considering this, if Lewis conceived this plot twist with the intent of illustrating this behavior in her character he irrevocably damaged the series.

Exact.In the end, It wasn't Susan who betrayed Narnia. It was Lewis himself, who couldn't uphold his awe and inspiration about Narnia. He allowed the IDEOLOGIST to win over HUMANIST and AUTHOR, Death over Life, Devotion over human passions, and dogma over humanity.

 

[Malacandra]

Because he was ADULT sexist. In "Horse and his Boy" he states "Lucy is as good as a boy". That means: girls are equal to boys, but women are infer4ior to men. Remember "My Fair Lady"? Like Higgins, Lewis thought "Why can't a woman be more like a man?" Young siblings remain close, but Peter and Susan separated: he became the true High King, she got nothing.

Concerning the reference to Lucy, the context is that of a hand-to-hand fight with mediæval weapons, in which you wouldn't expect a woman to be the equal of a man; they're not as strong and they don't come with the same hard-wired aggression. So it was high praise indeed to describe Lucy in that context as "as good as a man, or at any rate as good as a boy" - because she had the necessary courage and aggression, and was lacking only the physical stature.

Yes, and for Lewis it was bad. He liked blind belief more. The Example with gnome s from LB is also wrong: had Susan been there , she would see the truth.

On your say-so, but where's your case? The problem with the dwarfs was blind unbelief; confronted with Paradise, they retreated into self-delusion. Since Susan is reported as denying that Narnia ever existed - not with reasoned argument, but merely with mocking laughter - how can you possibly say she would have seen any more clearly than the dwarfs?

Exacter: Her greatest strength, Gentleness, binds her to Earth more than to Narnia (even there she was more atttracted to people). Therefore her place is on Earth, not Narnia.

I haven't a clue what your reasoning is here. Please clarify.

Except the way to this "mature path" goes through "lipstic phase". Lewis didn't see further - normally the wish to impress makes way to the wish to REALLY help... especially if the character is as empathic as Susan.

Except, tedious as it is to keep reiterating this, Susan was making no attempt to go through the phase. She had fixed on it prematurely as something to achieve as early as possible - to the neglect of her schoolwork - and she was intent on staying there as long as she could.

And logically, why believe in Narnia if you cannot help anyway?

It's hardly a test of belief though is it, when she had actually been there for many years and had a multitude of real experiences? The trouble with Susan is that she chooses to pretend to herself that it all never happened, despite her own experiences, and despite the testimony of the other Friends. You might as well ask how I manage to believe in my own foot.

 

[inkspot]

I cannot allow that Lewis betrayed Narnia by leaving Susan out of TLB. If anything, he was realistic in the choice: a doubtful and hesitant person may indeed be the most likely of the band to turn her back.

Susan was the doubtful one to begin with: at Tumnus' wrecked cave in LWW, she suggested going back home as it turned out this place wasn't much fun and might be dangerous. At the end of LWW when the White Stag disappeared into the woods, adult Susan suggested returning to Cair Paravel and following no further. In PC when Aslan is invisible for a time, she is the last one to see him, despite the fact she really believes Lucy has been seeing him all along, because she didn't want to get up in the middle of the night and follow him or admit her sister had been right.

With such a record built up for her in the stories, it makes all the sense in the world for her to finally, in our world, forget Narnia. It is unrealistic to say Lewis allowed ideology to triumph over his good sense as an author when he has foreshadowed Susan's end in her every appearance in the books -- if he had not made use of this foreshadowing somehow, we would be left to wonder why he bothered with it all, in a literary sense.

 

[AslansChild]

I just finished "The Last Battle" and it hit me like a ton of bricks. I can't believe it. I'm not sad except for that Susan isn't with them. Anyone thing Mr. Lewis might have been thinking of another book with Susan in it? Sad that the story is not continued.

 

[~Grateful * Surrender~]

Inkspot, I couldn't agree with you more. I like Susan but she did not alow herself te belive and have faith as the others did, and that is why Lewis wrote as he did.

 

[Ithilien]

I think the cause for her to stop believing in Narnia is her constant need to be "realistic" and rational. Sometimes, its hard to believe in something when all the facts oppose it. I think that is where Edmund and Susan differed. He has faith while she doesn't. Like that time in PC when Lucy said she saw Aslan, Edmund, who didn't see him, had faith in his sister. Susan tried to be rational so didn't follow Lucy. I think that is how she lost her faith in Narnia.

 

[SailorSaturn13]

I cannot allow that Lewis betrayed Narnia by leaving Susan out of TLB.

NO, not by that. This was just major OOC for Susan, who in hard times always helped others, to turn on her siblings.
Lewis betrayed Narnia by ending it. By transforming a childen's stories into religious propaganda. By killing all of his charachters. And by declaring that "Dead ones are lucky ones!". Note: In LWW, traitor Edmund is threatened with death. This is understandable. But in LB, "traitor" Susan is actually PUNISHED with life! This runs contrary to the first idea of Narnia as place to live. What was "promoting" the ideao of life now favores death.

If anything, he was realistic in the choice: a doubtful and hesitant person may indeed be the most likely of the band to turn her back.

THe person who cares for others becomes egoistic?? Why not Eustace?

 

[EveningStar]

SailorSaturn13, I think you're being a bit harsh on C.S. Lewis. He was not promoting the Gnostic heresy that death is preferable to life. Not in the least. Life is a series of growth steps, starting with infancy, leading through childhood, teen years, adulthood, old age and finally life after life.

At each stage we should be content with what we have, not rushing to a destination but appreciating the journey. That's the difference between taking a jet to Bermuda and taking a luxury cruise.

Our lives are full of color and music, pleasures and adventures. Even the act of bringing our successors into the world is graced by romantic love, love of children, and the grace and peace of knowing they will take up the reins when we are gone.

Did Aslan let Digory's mother die that she might enjoy the bliss of paradise? No, he healed her with the magic fruit that she might enjoy everything life has to offer...raising her child, the wisdom of old age, the welcoming home of the weary traveller ready for a new beginning.

How about the blessed martyrs who fought in LWW? Why shouldn't the wounded be allowed to die of their injuries and spend an eternity in Heaven with Aslan? Because it was their time to enjoy life in Narnia...to have children, to build things and go places and grow old and say goodbye when the time came. Aslan urged Lucy to go about healing the others as quickly as possible with a gentle but firm, "Daughter of Eve, must MORE die for Edmund?"

Let's consider for a moment the deaths of the Pevensies. How many years old were they physically? How many years old MENTALLY? They had done more living in their lifetimes than most people could do in two. They were war heroes, adventurers, explorers, monarchs, knights, and servants of God. Was it right that they should not outlive the world they saved repeatedly and felt was their own true home? Let's examine this....

A bit of science fiction containing an uncomfortable science fact. A man who was in the bank vault at the time hears the explosion. He rushes upstairs, having to pummel his way through the lobby door, only to gain a few of what was left of the world. The entire world. Nothingness. The others died instantly not knowing. Is he lucky? Do you feel he was lucky?

 

[inkspot]

By transforming a childen's stories into religious propaganda.

Chakal handled the death thing, so I will leave it, but this propaganda deal is too much. Where are you getting this, Bill Pullman? He's big on the death issue as well.

If you think these stories are propaganda, then I would say anything you read is propaganda, because all authors have a viewpoint and beliefs, and they put them unconsciously or consciously into their works. Tolkien was a dedicated Catholic who said the Catholic overtones appeared on their own at first, and through rewrites he enhanced them. Do you call LOTR Catholic propaganda? This is just silly. The CON stories are not spoiled by religious themes -- the religious symbolism is what makes the stories enduring!

THe person who cares for others becomes egoistic??

I never said this, and I am curious why you paired it with my quote about Susan? Susan was the hesitant one in ever circumstance, and so she was the one who turned away completely from Narnia as she grew up ... it is decently foreshadowed in the stories she appears in, and so it makes sense in TLB.

 

[SailorSaturn13]

How about the blessed martyrs who fought in LWW? Why shouldn't the wounded be allowed to die of their injuries and spend an eternity in Heaven with Aslan? Because it was their time to enjoy life in Narnia...to have children, to build things and go places and grow old and say goodbye when the time came. Aslan urged Lucy to go about healing the others as quickly as possible with a gentle but firm, "Daughter of Eve, must MORE die for Edmund?"

Did Aslan let Digory's mother die that she might enjoy the bliss of paradise? No, he healed her with the magic fruit that she might enjoy everything life has to offer...raising her child, the wisdom of old age, the welcoming home of the weary traveller ready for a new beginning.

Here, basically OK.


And in LWW, everything was very well done, AIMB. The problem is LB.

The CON stories are not spoiled by religious themes -- the religious symbolism is what makes the stories enduring!

Again: other books, yes. LB is firmly BURIED under religion... and this constitutes propaganda.

I never said this, and I am curious why you paired it with my quote about Susan?

Because Susan DOES care about other people.

 

[Ithilien]

To say LB is religious propaganda is a little extreme. C. S. Lewis did not write the LB with the purpose of converting its readers to Christianity as the word "propaganda" suggests. The novel is merely a piece of fiction that reflects his beliefs.

And about your second point, Susan does care for other people, there is no doubt about that. Still, she is a realistic depiction of many people who lose their faith. She lost her faith not because she was evil or anything negative, or because she did or did not care for others. In my opinion (and earlier post), Susan lost her faith because of her need to be rational and realistic. Sometimes, its hard to believe in something when all the facts contradict it, but that is when faith comes in. To a rational mind, a fantasy world with fauns and centaurs could not possibly exist.

C. S. Lewis is trying to express something through Susan: believing in something is not going to be easy. Her "salvation" was not established the moment she entered Narnia. Faith is something we have to develop and work on continuously throughout our lives. Susan, like many others, evidently arrived at a tough moment where she doubted her faith.

 

[inkspot]

Again: other books, yes. LB is firmly BURIED under religion... and this constitutes propaganda.

As Ithilien has pointed out, TLB is far from propaganda, if the definition of propaganda in this case is "designed to convert people to Christianity." If this is the definition of propaganda, then LWW is far more in that vein: it dramatically presents the story of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. If anyone was going to "convert," it would be through reading LWW, not TLB. I am curious, SailorSaturn13, why you find TLB to be more an example of "proppaganda" than LWW?

No one reading TLB would think: this is the story of how Jesus Christ sacrificed His life to save me from sin (which is basically what a person would need to recognize in order to convert). If they were unfamiiar with Bible prophecy, they might not even get what the story parallels or symbolizes.

But almost anyone familiar with any part of the story of Christianity would recognize Jesus in Aslan in LWW and particularly how his death saving Edmund parallels Christ's death on the cross to save us.

So why is it TLB bothers you so much more on this level?

And yes, I agree Susan cares about people. But why did you imply that I, or Lewis in TLB, stated that Susan was not allowed in the new Narnia because she cared about people? Neither I not Jack Lewis said anything of the sort ...

 

[SailorSaturn13]

But why did you imply that I, or Lewis in TLB, stated that Susan was not allowed in the new Narnia because she cared about people?

No, I stated it was OOC of Susan to betray her siblings. In PC she went along whether she believed or not.

 

[**DaRyNqUeEnOfNaRnIa**]

Dang girl!!!

u go gurl!! u should pm me cuz u must hav guts to say something like that!!

I think Susan found her family dead and inherited everything from all of them; I think she ended up lonely and wealthy, living an empty life. Maybe she searches the Earth for the Wardrobe...maybe she used the rings...Maybe she never got to Narnia again. But if she did, it would happen because she found a way to make it happen. A strange view; people would say, how awful, her whole family dead, how could a loving God let this happen? Just Lewis' way of demonstrating; we don't know or understand the reasons behind what God does, but we can trust that He loves us.

 

[inkspot]

No, I stated it was OOC of Susan to betray her siblings. In PC she went along whether she believed or not.

Oh, I misunderstood you. But if you remember, in PC, Susan voted against following Aslan when only Lucy could see him, so she did not stand by Lucy in that instance, and of course, she did not believe Lucy about Narnia until she herself had been to Narnia. So, really, Susan's character was such that a thing had to be proven to her before she would allow for it, and even so she was, of the four, the one most likely to want to turn back or to wish she had not come. It makes perfect sense that as she became an adult, she really did believe Narnia was a make-believe game from childhood, and to reject its perpetuation as silliness her her less mature sibs.

 

[Ithilien]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in PC, she convinced everyone not to follow Lucy's suggestion. And adding on to what Inkspot said, Susan was also the one who always wanted to turn back to our world. By nature, she is quite hesitant and slow to relinquish her trust. Her faith may have been a little weak all along before she eventually lost her faith entirely.