Problems In Lewis' Theology

I believe that the revelation of Jesus Christ is necessary for salvation. I'm not totally sure how that can happen out in the middle of the jungle, but do we ever have to know how things are done before God can do them?

1 soution: The Holy Spirit can establish the truth in people's hearts, so I see no reason why someone like Fred or the callerman couldn't go to heaven.

second solution: Perhaps Fred, by God's grace, dies with his heart ready to accept the truth, then when he finally found it he accepted it. That could work. Though I've had some fairly violent reactons to this theory.

I don't really know, but I know God is God, so whatever he does is best.
 
Having just finished LB again, I noted that in the New Narnia, Calormene exists. This leads me to believe one of two options:

1. Calormene is peopled by people who were saved by Aslan.

2. Calormene is an empty place, that is, peopled by no one.

I lean very heavily towards option 1.
 
I must defer to the brilliance of GrayCloak or the reverened Capstick on this issue...But as my mother says, "You might be suprised who you will see in heaven"...
...It is my personal opinon that God has preordained, before the begining of time, who will be saved and who (for lack of a more delicate term) will be damned. I don't pretend to know His methods of reaching men's hearts, but I believe Him perfectly cappable of saving those whom He has called (be they Telmarine, Calormian, Archenlander, or Narnia).

-JS

PS...If this doesn't make sense please forgive me...it is late and I am tired.
 
Yeah, that pretty much covers it. Good work JS. It's funny how people can say exactly what I wanted to say but use so many less words.
 
I'll let you know a little of my thinking--and IN NO WAY is this a put-down or attack, for everyone is entitled to their philosophy of life and religion.

But when people talk about predestined or preordained in reference to people who will be saved and/or not be saved, I get queasy. And I'll tell you why.

First, I think that it easily leads us into temptation to start judging people, if not individuals then groups of people as to their final destination.

Secondly, when I think deeply of this matter, how would I feel if I die and "St. Peter" at Heaven's Gate tells me: "Sorry, guy. But you were preordained NOT to enter Heaven. I know you believed that you believed, but God's LAW is Law."

My first reaction is "Why would I want to believe in such a God?" Then, "Such a god is not God at all!" My gut feeling is that God is Love, and God wants to call all of his creation back to Him, not just a few or a majority.

So, in conclusion, I prefer to look at each human being as being preordained to enter Heaven and treat them that way. I'll let the Holy Spirit touch the lives I come into contact directly and indirectly and let Christ do all of the judging of hearts. I feel that Lewis felt the same way.
 
Please forgive me if I have offended you....I had no such intention.

I wish to go through your arguments sequentially:

1. Lord forbid that I should judge anyone...I have done enough in my short life for me to deal with, but it says clearly in the parable of the wheat field that there are tares amoung us....The question is: Is a tare a weed only at the harvest (refering to the second coming) or is a tare intrinsically a weed from the moment life began?....think about it.

2. Many people have said that "we choose to believe in God"...I believe that God "chooses us", that He gently (or not so gently) removes us from our lives of sin and destruction and regenerates our hearts, claiming us for His own...Example: When you adopt a child, it is the adults who choose which child they will graciously take into their home and make a part of their family...it would be arrogant for the child to say that he/she choose which family would be lucky enough to adopt him/her....think about it.

Finally, I just want to add that a loving commitment to the Lord and the Holy Spirit moving in our lives are fruit of are being called to be a child of God...and anyone who believes in his heart that Jesus rose from the death and cofesses the He is Lord will be saved...they wouldn't believe in the miracle of resurection or admit Jesus's lordship if they were not redeemed from the world and regenerate of heart...

...Please don't be "queasy" or offended, these are my beliefs about the human/God relationship...and, quite frankly, it constantly amazes me that He would want anything to do with us insignificant insects.

-JS
 
Ah *sniff* JS is becoming such a good little Infralapsarian, Monergistic, Effectual Calvanist... *sniff*

Anyway, well said JS, well said!
 
Jene Sai, no offense taken. I am merely trying to stimulate some intellectual thought here.

Your comments are valid, since these have been formulated from your experience and your faith. I would not presume to question them, but--with your permission--I'd like to prod you a little bit. Put some of those thoughts to the fire, if you will.

Interesting analogy of the wheat and tares. Yes, a tare is a weed, but it is necessary for the sustainment of other creatures. I suppose that humans have eaten tares in the past when food was scarce. And, this parable--remember it is but a parable of the harvest--was meant, as Jewish teaching is custom in its approach and execution, as a warning to people that they will be judged at the harvest time as to being wheat or tares.

To make the jump as some people already being tares when they are born, IMHO, is to admit that God isn't really a loving God after all. He makes some to live "happily ever after" with Him. He makes others to languish eternally as some kind of sport.

I also don't want to dismiss the omnipotence of God. If we were to talk in this vein, then what would be the point of God doing anything, much less we humans. I mean, it's like being a writer (which I am) who has complete knowledge of every detail of the book. My character or characters are going to do things as I direct them. Now, what if one of my characters suddenly came to life, as it were, and told me in person that didn't like how I was directing my life and he/she did not see the point in continuing since the end was known (think ghastly as an extreme).

"You're gonna die, so I don't really care," could very well be one response. "I made you, and this is the way it's gonna be. You don't have any recourse. I am the judge and jury on the way things are gonna turn out."

So, in my hypothetical example above and in conjunction with my earlier comments, how would I feel if I believed so strongly that I was a stalk of wheat when all along God was laughing at me because I really was a tare.

I personally cannot believe in such a god. Please note the small "g." My God cares about every living soul and does His darndest (mostly through other people, you understand) to have each and every soul return the "touch."

One bugaboo I have is that we have one central, immutable fact for doctrine or dogma or whatever you would like to call it: Christ died for all. Not some or a few but all.

Then, over the last two millenia, we have had theologians pick this immutable fact apart like proverbial rabbis over one word in a particular Bible passage. These developing offshoots of the one immutable fact then become more dogma until we have created a Heinz 57 variety of Christian factions, sects, and the like. To protect one "brand" of Christianity, we build fences and walls to safeguard what our leaders tell us is the One and Only Way. And, when that happens, we naturally have people who will ardently proclaim that someone's belief is is error--and away we go back to the early days of the church when Christians were literally killing each other over an idea other than the one immutable fact.
 
We had this discussion going over in the predestination vs. free will thread, and it got locked because of the rancor over the issue. I feel as you do, Wallis, that Christ died for all, and I think the Scriptures support this. But a lot of people feel the Scriptures indicate that there are those predestined by God never to come to faith in Christ. (Like you, I think that would be out of God's very nature as a loving God ...)

And I tried to defend the same viewpoint as you (that all Christ followers are in unity by our virtue of all believing that Christ died for us and our desire to live for Him) in the Scripture vs. Tradition thread, but again, there were those who would not allow that we could be in unity unless I accepted their denomination ... it is sad!!!

Back on topic ... it is clear that Lewis felt Calormenes could be "saved" in the vernacular we would use, and that there was virtue and merit in the Calormene country, too, or as you say, it would not have appeared in the true Narnia alongside true England, etc. I wonder if some nations/nationalities will be wiped out ultimately, as devoid of virtue, like Sodom and Gomorrah?
 
You know, Sodom and Gomorrah bring up some very interesting ideas.

On other forums, we tend to go off the "deep end" on trying to discover why these two particular cities were "nuked," to use the term rather loosely.

We know that Abraham tried to barter with God in saving the cities. Perhaps a few people were saved from destruction by getting out, a fact that would not have been instrumental in the telling.

We know, too, that Sodom and Gomorrah belonged to a kind of federation of sorts, at least in the war that they lost and asked Abraham to settle accounts for them.

History, IMHO, paints nations with a broad brush. We need only to look at the wars in the 20th Century to get the feeling. For example, all Germans were Nazis, all Japanese participated in genocide, all Vietnamese were die-hard Communists, all Russians are die-hard Communists, etc., etc.

Yet, when the dust settles, we find a bitter truth (bitter in the sense that we have to unlearn what we were told by the government and the media) in that all the people of a nationality were not bad. All Germans were not Nazis, etc., etc.

Yet, when the Allies dropped their bombs, a whole lot of innocents died as well.

And still, God was there to welcome home those that had died. I think that Lewis was trying to communicate that message as well. He didn't broad-brush all of the Calormenes as evil. They operated within a system that was brow-beat into them, and yet I feel that he felt deep down that a good many of them were good people. And that's where I feel that the Love of God is supreme as depicted in the Last Battle as well as in the THAHB. (p.s., sorry. I'm out of the country for a few days, and I don't have my books within arm's reach, so I can't name names, as it were.)

Also, I agree that a previous thread was locked. It is not my intention to argue one way or the other. I was hoping for some intellectual discussion. Quite frankly, for me, it doesn't matter what people believe in regarding dogma beyond what I termed as the One Immutable Truth, which our thread starter eloquently stated in his first post. I'll back off on the side of keeping things cool here and the thread open.

Thanks!
 
Interesting, Wallis -- you think there will be people from Sodom and Gomorrah in heaven, or maybe you think all people eventually will make it to heaven.

I tend to agree to some extent: could a whole nation be totally depraved? It seems unlikely as you point out with your reference to the Axis powers in WW II, not all were bad, but all suffered for the evil of those who were calling the shots.

This is kind of what I see in Lewis' Calormenes: there is much to admire in their society as a whole -- the architecture, their style of speech and story-telling, the pride and independence of some of the people. The same is certainly true of the nations that have declared themselves enemies of Christianity or of the USA: there is still something admirable in their culture, and people who aren't or wouldn't be enemies if they had a choice.
 
I think it's safe to say (here at least) that I am not a "one-shot-in-life" kind of guy. I think the Grand Plan is much larger and more in-depth than that.
 
inkspot said:
I tend to agree to some extent: could a whole nation be totally depraved? It seems unlikely as you point out with your reference to the Axis powers in WW II, not all were bad, but all suffered for the evil of those who were calling the shots.
A whole nation apparantly can be depraved. Abraham dwindled the number down to 10, and not even that number where found. However, I believe this was an extremely rare case. I would not equate Callermine with these cities for that reason.
 
i'm just starting to read this thread, and i apologise if i say something that's been said already. i'm afraid i don't posses the patience to read all 14 pages.

goign back to the LB isn't there a scene where all the creatures and people in narnia and the surronding countries walk up to Aslan, and either turn and go into the stable or walk alone into the darkness? it's been a while since i read LB, but i was hoping that someone could clarify this. i was wondering if this could be a metaphor for what lewis sees happening when we die, or at judgment day. where even if you never heard of christ, you'll be given a chance for eternal life.

also i thought (but i'm really not sure about this) i read somewhere that paul wrote that those who had never heard of jesus would be given a chance to believe. has anyone else ever heard that?
 
Welcome, Benjamin, I didn't see you post before.

We were discussing earlier in the Thread if the presence of a Calormene in the "true Narnia" at the end of TLB meant that Lewis thought people who did not know Christ would be allowed into heaven. I don't think that anyone brought up the idea that at the moment Christ is revealed, each person will then have the option to choose Him. (In TLB, we never see Emeth the Calormene face Aslan and be directed either into new Narnia or the shadows because he is already inside the new Narnia when that scene unfolds.)

The passage you are thinking of may be Romans 2:14-16 (here from "The Message" Bible):

"When outsiders who have never heard of God's law follow it more or less by instinct, they confirm its truth by their obedience. They show that God's law is not something alien, imposed on us from without, but woven into the very fabric of our creation. There is something deep within them that echoes God's yes and no, right and wrong. Their response to God's yes and no will become public knowledge on the day God makes his final decision about every man and woman. The Message from God that I proclaim through Jesus Christ takes into account all these differences."

The theory of "available light" relies on this passage to posit that those who have never had the light of Christ will be judged according to how they lived by what light was available to them -- whether they lived as best they could by whatever part of the law was known to them.

Others believe that there is no godly living outside of Christ, and those who have not accepted Him before death or judgment day will never have the opportunity to do so and will be doomed to a Christless eternity.
 
Good answer Inkspot.

On the first question, this is Lewis describing Christ's parable of the Last Days, the Day of Judgment when he divides the "flock" into two groups: right hand and left hand. It is a very simple division: those who loved me by loving your neighbor and those who did not.
 
Wallis...
...I'm sorry I did not get back to you on the predestination topic we were discussing....It is embarassing, but I forgot which topic the thread was in and had a horrible time finding it...I don't want this thread locked as previous ones have been...so maybe we should agree to disagree (at least until a predestination thread is reopened)...I don't know your history, but I am not a theologian by training; that said I doubt either one of us would change our minds on the issue...even though it might be fun to go a few rounds.

Back on topic...
...This is one of those issues that can be horrendous to get your head around..I will have to do quite a bit of study before I offer a definte opinion, but I would be will to say that I generally agree with you Inkspot...From what I have studied on the topic (and I do admit it is not extensive or indepth) I would agree that all will be given a chance hear the gospel and that those without knowledge of Jesus's Sacrifice will be judged according to their own individual knowledge of God's precepts and nature.

-JS
 
In defense of denominations

Thanks for the welcome! :)

Regarding your comments earlier, wallis(and bearing in mind that at this
time I'm speaking as an undecided outsider, but was raised by believing
parents):Yes, the 'conservative' Christian community(that is, those that
generally believe in at least the general events described in scripture and
the appostles creed)probably should cooperate more often rather than
given churches competing with each other for custo-err...attendence( ;) ),
but doctrine, and therefore the doctrine of those in authoritty in the
church you may be involved in, DOES matter. Eternity(who does and
doesn't stand in danger of hell, and how do you know where you're going),
what God desires of you and how you strengthen your walk with him are
pretty big issues, not to be taken lightly! :)



Joel
 
narnia-fan said:
doctrine, and therefore the doctrine of those in authoritty in the church you may be involved in, DOES matter. Eternity(who does and doesn't stand in danger of hell, and how do you know where you're going), what God desires of you and how you strengthen your walk with him are pretty big issues, not to be taken lightly! :)
But surely all these things are outlined in Scripture? The Scripture clearly states what is necessary for salvation (avoiding hell): confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead. Galatians in particular makes clear that no other action is required, and if you indeed believe on Christ for forgiveness of sins, you can know you are going to heaven.

What God desires of you is one of my favorite verses, Michah 6:8. "He has shown you, O man, what is good; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justly, To love mercy, And to walk humbly with your God?" (NKJV) Or in The Message, "But he's already made it plain how to live, what to do, what GOD is looking for in men and women. It's quite simple: Do what is fair and just to your neighbor, be compassionate and loyal in your love, And don't take yourself too seriously--take God seriously."

And how to strengthen your walk with Christ is in the Scriptures, too -- all the epistles give directions ... So what need to argue amongst ourselves along denominational lines? We are all passengers on the same boat, all travelers on the same road ...
 
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