Star Trek - one thread for all things Trekkie

[Copperfox]

What I'm seeing about the Star Trek reshuffling reminds me of how the BBC, when continuing "Doctor Who," made the "slight" change of wiping out the Doctors' home planet of Gallifrey. That annoyed me greatly--the more so when I learned that, after all the moral-equivalence crud which had been force-fed into the Daleks-versus-Time-Lords conflict, they _didn't_ after all have the Daleks perish "equally," _only_ the Time Lords perished.

And changing Kirk from a serious, responsible man to a tediously predictable "rebel just like all the other young rebels" reminds me unpleasantly of what Andrew Adamson did to the character of Prince Caspian.

 

[Aravis Kenobi]

Yeah, but Kirk also changed during his academy years and his years as Captain and being posted on different ships. That's why they wrote him as they did and why Kirk acted the way he does. Have you even seen the movie, CF? I daresay nobody has the right to pass judgment before seeing it.

 

[inkspot]

So in other words Star Trek has been reborn.

I think so -- they can do movies from here on out with the new cast that don't have to be tied to the previous ST time-line and stories.

Gary Mitchell once referred to Kirk as being a walking stack of books.

YES! I knew I'd heard something like that in ToS. Well done!

(The biggest arguement for, is that with the timeline altered, Nero should never have made his mission back in time, and thus the timeline never changed at all.)

Ooooh, my head is starting to ache.

And changing Kirk from a serious, responsible man to a tediously predictable "rebel just like all the other young rebels" reminds me unpleasantly of what Andrew Adamson did to the character of Prince Caspian.

Yah, that was the only weird thing, but ... the time-line was changed so that Kirk didn't grow up with a supportive Star Fleet Capt for a father -- instead, he was fatherless -- which really could account for such a shift in his character. But if this were the real world, the incapacitation to his character that would have actually resulted from this shift might never have led to the nerves-of-steel, morally-upright Kirk that we actually saw in ToS. So. It's understandable, but I bet its actual consequences will never really be explored.

(Not that fatherlessness instantly makes you a rebel or angry or whatever -- but contrasted with what we know of the previous Kirk's upbringing, it makes it possible he could be that different a man.)

 

[Aravis Kenobi]

And, not to mention, a LOT of guys are ones that like to test the limits, break the rules, and don't care about where they're going in life. I think a stark contrast can be drawn between Kirk and McCoy. McCoy, at the time of meeting Kirk, had just gotten a divorce, but he's also more mature than Kirk. Not to mention, he's older than Kirk. Don't all teens try to test the limits and see how rebellious they can be and what they can get away with, regardless of how they're raised? Me, I've never really felt the need to be rebellious, but I certainly try my mom a lot of times with my attitude(s). McCoy wasn't like Kirk in that he had gone through that stage, and he was married; although I wonder what caused the divorce.

 

[inkspot]

You have a point there, but we also don't know if McCoy ever had a rebellious teen stage -- not everyone does, but lots of people do. And Kirk is pretty young when Pike reaches out to him in this film. It could just be that he's an immature character up to that point when circumstances force him to mature quickly.

I liked the Chris Pike character in the film, too. But they were not implying, were they, that his injuries at the hands of Nero were what left him as debilitated as we see him in "The Menagerie," were they? Because, he was in a wheel chair at the end, but not totally disabled like he was when we met him in ToS.

Also, what was the deal with Nero talking like that computer from 2001 A Space Oddysey when he would first make contact? "Hi Chris. I'm Nero." That seemed totally at odds with his character! And with any Romulan we've ever seen up until now, in fact. That was weird.

 

[Aravis Kenobi]

no, I don't think they were implying that Pike's torture by Nero was the reason for his state in The Menagerie of TOS. In fact, Pike was alive and well and in good condition in the pilot episode "The Cage." (Surprisingly, Kirk wasn't captain of the Enterprise in the pilot; in fact, the only person to be in the show from the beginning was Spock; Pike was the original captain, and Kirk showed up in the 2nd episode, "The Man Trap) Just, he wasn't quite as old.
http://www.trektoday.com/content/20...ers-explain-controversial-decisions.html#more

Although, I do agree that they could have done that whole "hi christopher, I'm nero" thing a little better. Not to mention, Pike's injuries weren't that severe, considering the bug in the mouth was only used to get information out of him and apparently didn't cause severe injuries; although since the bug attached itself to part of the brain stem, it could have caused some nerve damage, but nothing to the extent of The Menagerie.

 

[BarbarianKing]

The lesson from this movie (as it has been for decades in Hollywood) is that you can be immoral and irresponsible all you want but just because you're a little intelligent, things will work out for you and people should acknowledge you. It used to be that in the real world character counted for something.

"A good name is more desirable than great riches..." Proverbs 22:1

"A good name is better than fine perfume..." Ecclesiates 7:1

 

[onlymystory]

Okay, I know I'm not in any way shape of form a Trekkie and I don't think I've ever watched a full episode of any of the series and this is the first of the movies I've seen. But on a movie defense of sorts I have some questions/comments...

First, I don't think Chris Pine (Kirk) is like Rob Pattinson at all. I can't stand the latter, and I love the former. Keeping on the Kirk thing...they certainly did give him the rebel status but I think there were tiny clues that he is smart and not just lucky. When Uhura tells when what she's studying, he knows exactly what that is. Captain Pike (or is it Admiral?) mentions that his aptitude tests are off the charts, and he does figure out how to beat the Meru (sp?) test. So I think he is shown as smart and his language is intelligent, its not full of likes and ya knows or anything silly. I suppose the 2nd one will show more. I would imagine they emphasized the rebel idea because many people like a rebel and cheering for the rebel. I just felt there were clues in there that show he's not a dumb hick who gets lucky.
And then I could be completely off base because I don't know Star Trek canon or timelines but technically doesn't all the stuff from the other Star Trek stuff still happen because this is a different time but same space? I mean I think all the stuff you guys love from the other series and movies still happens its just in a different time. And on the Nero thing, I don't think Nero went back in time. Or at least not just back in time. If I'm understanding at least the movie story correctly, Nero came back in time but in an alternate universe as well. So technically doesn't that mean that Romulus still exists? But maybe Nero doesn't know that so he's still on his destroy Vulcan and make Spock watch mission? And remember Spock (well old spock from the other universe/time) tells Kirk that it took seconds to go through the black hole but Nero's ship came through, destroyed the USS Kelvin, and then waited 25 years for Spock's ship to go through. And then it was just a matter of months before the majority of the events we saw take place. So in Nero's closed off little world, he was all about hurting Spock, not so much saving his planet. If that makes any sense...?

 

[Aravis Kenobi]

Well, actually Kirk cheated on the Kobayashi Maru test by adding a subroutine to change the scenario, thereby making it a situation in which Kirk could win. And I like your idea of not just an alternate timeline, but an alternate universe all together; as Nero said, "James T. Kirk was a great man....captain of the Enterprise; but that was another life." But as we see, Kirk becomes Captain of the Enterprise regardless of what action Nero took\takes.

And, did you notice, that the Narada (nero's ship) wasn't fully destroyed?

 

[inkspot]

I don't think that was the lesson from this movie. Kirk was a rebellious kid, but Pike's words really hit home with him: "Your father was capt of a starship for 12 minutes and saved 800 lives. Let's see you do better or whatever he said. I think Kirk had that goodness of his father, and he wanted to honor his father's name, so he responded to that challenge.

I don't think we can say this Kirk, just because he was rebellious and fatherless, wasn't of a noble heart. He just needed some coaxing to pursue that part of his nature. And Melissa is right, also, he was smart -- and good-hearted.

Now, OK, I like the idea of back in time and an alternate universe, so all the old ToS stuff is happening; just now we have a whole new timeline to explore. Excellent.

AK, I agree with you about The Menagerie/Christopher Pike, but I didn't remember that about The Cage. you know all!

 

[Aravis Kenobi]

I don't think that was the lesson from this movie. Kirk was a rebellious kid, but Pike's words really hit home with him: "Your father was capt of a starship for 12 minutes and saved 800 lives. Let's see you do better or whatever he said. I think Kirk had that goodness of his father, and he wanted to honor his father's name, so he responded to that challenge.

I don't think we can say this Kirk, just because he was rebellious and fatherless, wasn't of a noble heart. He just needed some coaxing to pursue that part of his nature. And Melissa is right, also, he was smart -- and good-hearted.

Now, OK, I like the idea of back in time and an alternate universe, so all the old ToS stuff is happening; just now we have a whole new timeline to explore. Excellent.

AK, I agree with you about The Menagerie/Christopher Pike, but I didn't remember that about The Cage. you know all!

Oh yes I agree with you on your first statement. Pike then went on to say, "Including your mothers...and yours. You've always had a hard time finding your place in this world, haven't you? Never knowing your true worth. You can settle for less in ordinary life, or do you feel like you were meant for something better? Something special. Enlist in Starfleet."

To direct this part of my post to Admiral Halsey, you said in another post you wondered if this film held true to the ideals of Gene Roddenberry. The ideals you're thinking of include the belief that we're all essentially good but we can do whatever we want. Roddenberry was a humanist; he said as much (if you read the film's review and the Quibbles with Tribbles article on pluggedinonline.com). He put morality into his characters, sure. But what morality? For example, Bones drinks a lot in this movie and, I believe in TOS as well. Kirk, for another example, is a great captain, but a womanizer. However noble Kirk might become or be, he is still that: a skirt chasing Starfleet Captain. Those are the kinds of morals that Roddenberry promoted, and obviously saw nothing wrong with. Now, I still love TOS and I love the movie, but if we're going to quote Scripture here, yet still say, "I hope this movie is true to the ideals of Roddenberry", then we need to address that kind of cavalier attitude towards morality. Sure, Kirk and Co. had others' well-being in their minds; that's the point of their mission(s): "To explore strange new worlds; to seek out new life and new civilizations." in TOS, Kirk was more or less a "righteous" kind of person, but for me, that changed in the movies that followed. Kirk was just as immoral as anyone else on the crew. I'm not sure if this part makes sense or not, I was trying to piece together my thoughts in a clear and concise way but not sure I made it that way.

I don't exactly know ALL about TOS; there are many more episodes I have yet to see, but my dad and I watch TOS every Sunday night together and they dont' show the episodes in order (go figure!) and they showed The Cage a couple of weeks ago....

 

[onlymystory]

ooh, and it has to be an alternate universe because I just remembered old Spock tells Kirk he's from 129 years in the future. There's no way if he just went back in time that any of those people would be alive yet. (Right? I mean, Star Trek humans don't live as long as Methusaleh right?) So it has to be an alternate universe that has a different timeline now. Sort of how some fairytales show the hero how one little choice changes his entire life.
and then yes, Kirk did cheat and create a subroutine but don't you have to be pretty smart to not only figure out how to create a routine that won't immediately ring any bells to the adminstrators of the test and install it in the system? So maybe not the most ethical but still pretty dang smart!

 

[BarbarianKing]

I know no one has to agree with me, but that's exactly the message I got and that's what many kids will see.

 

[Admiral Halsey]

Hey Aravis Kenobi.

I don't deny that the enterprise crew (And the voyager crew etc,) all had flaws. But I think that was part of the point. You can't teach lessons, and show a journey if we all start at the end.

All of us, belivers and non belivers alike, have our flaws. And as a child, when we begin we are far likely to start with more of them than we will finish in.

But all of us have to learn as we go through life. By example, from the bible, by learning from our mistakes.

Whatever his flaws, Gene Roddenberry was a good man. He saw humanity as something with potential, as a society that could do great and right things, regardless of his religious views. Star trek showed us his ideal what we belived we are capable of.

Kirk is a real man. A human. He has flaws, and bad ones. Some are a result of the times the series was filmed in, others are intentional. But despite those flaws Kirk goes on to do great things, to strive for peace and justice, as do the other characters across the series. They demonstrate scarfise, love, friendship, how to care for others, look beyond yourselves, and how to respect other people and clutures.

You might not learn to much about faith from Star Trek, but I think there is a look of good reason and lessons to be taught. Star Trek, under gene, had meaning, it had a purpose. It was a lot more than a quick buck.

Now? I don't think you can learn much about faith or reason from explosions, sex, and time traveling evil badguys blowing up Vulcan. It seems... Like the franchise has moved away from a show with a message, and turned into a show made for a dollar.

 

[Copperfox]

>> Whatever his flaws, Gene Roddenberry was a good man.


A "good man" who in concrete practice cheated on his first wife with MORE than one woman. You're not leaving much room for anyone to be a BAD man.

 

[EveningStar]

I told Lynne (Lady Badger) that I'm going to see the Star Trek movie today. I added, "Hey, I'm a man...I need my space."

She should have been a baseball player, with that kind of aim....

 

[Lucy but Taller]

I wore a red shirt today,and survived!!!!!!

 

[Sven-El]

That's nothing. One time at college, a classmate of mine was being interviewed in the hall for a local news show, and I walked by, wearing a red shirt ( that looked suspisously like one in the Voyager era) whilst talking to my close female friend, and my friend happeend to be a Nurseing Student, ( she was even wearing blue), and I survived.

 

[Lucy but Taller]

^LOL!!!

I met a guy that looked exactly like Walter Koenig once!!

 

[Aravis Kenobi]

>> Whatever his flaws, Gene Roddenberry was a good man.


A "good man" who in concrete practice cheated on his first wife with MORE than one woman. You're not leaving much room for anyone to be a BAD man.

Hey Aravis Kenobi.

I don't deny that the enterprise crew (And the voyager crew etc,) all had flaws. But I think that was part of the point. You can't teach lessons, and show a journey if we all start at the end.

All of us, belivers and non belivers alike, have our flaws. And as a child, when we begin we are far likely to start with more of them than we will finish in.

But all of us have to learn as we go through life. By example, from the bible, by learning from our mistakes.

Whatever his flaws, Gene Roddenberry was a good man. He saw humanity as something with potential, as a society that could do great and right things, regardless of his religious views. Star trek showed us his ideal what we belived we are capable of.

Kirk is a real man. A human. He has flaws, and bad ones. Some are a result of the times the series was filmed in, others are intentional. But despite those flaws Kirk goes on to do great things, to strive for peace and justice, as do the other characters across the series. They demonstrate scarfise, love, friendship, how to care for others, look beyond yourselves, and how to respect other people and clutures.

You might not learn to much about faith from Star Trek, but I think there is a look of good reason and lessons to be taught. Star Trek, under gene, had meaning, it had a purpose. It was a lot more than a quick buck.

Now? I don't think you can learn much about faith or reason from explosions, sex, and time traveling evil badguys blowing up Vulcan. It seems... Like the franchise has moved away from a show with a message, and turned into a show made for a dollar.

Did you also think about the message it promoted? The message it promoted was that we don't need a God. WE're fine on our own, therefore we can make up our own rules. Yes, we're that way anyway, becuase of our sin nature, but Roddenberry believed that. He believed that all religion was ludicrous, and made the attempts in the films and series to say as much.

Also, keep in mind that in TOS, it was nearly always implied that Kirk slept with a lot of the women he fell in love with; he was a womanizer, aka he slept with women like you and I would drink water. HOw do you think Carol marcus got pregnant with his son, David? Better lessons from earlier stuff? I doubt it. I don't see that there's any more of a moral diversion in later series and films than in TOS. Of course, TOS was made back in the 60s when greater discretion was used, but the same immorality is in later series and movies.