Star Wars -- ONE thread for all Star Wars - ALL Star Wars here
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Sure, I'll see what I can do.
I don't think the story was lazy writing. But that could be a matter of taste here. I thought the writing was really good, and better than the prequel trilogy in realistic dialog that people might actually say. Also, Carrie Fisher helped script doctor The Last Jedi. She went through the script line-by-line with Rian Johnson.
They only hired and fired one director / writer after the initial attempt from another writer for The Force Awakens. There was a different writer that had worked on a treatment for episode 7, but if I recall correctly, Lucasfilm didn't like it, so they brought in Abrams. The only director they fired for the sequel trilogy was Colin Trevorrow, who was busy working on his Jurassic World trilogy anyway, and he was unfortunately in a situation where Carrie Fisher died and he couldn't figure out how to handle that, since movie three was going to be her film.
I don't disagree with this. I would have LOVED to see the three of them together at least somewhat. Here's an amazing stat for you: Out of the 377 minutes of the first three movies in George Lucas' Trilogy, only 22.5 of those minutes feature Han, Luke & Leia in scenes together. Mind-blowing, right? But yeah, I would have to learn what they were thinking by separating them all, but if I had to hazard a guess, it might have felt too fan-service to have them all together. That said, I wouldn't have minded in the slightest. I love fan-servicy stuff.
I thought that Finn's mystery was solved in the fact that he could feel what was happening to Rey during the final battle of Rise of Skywalker. Finn can feel the Force. My dream would be to see either an Episode X, or a series, where Rey starts teaching Finn the ways of the Force.
Rey Skywalker is one of my favorite characters in the Star Wars saga now. That there was so much speculation and theory around her origin speaks volumes to how much people actually care about Star Wars. (As does, sadly, the amount of hate the Fandom Menace has.) I really appreciated that it turned out that she came from no one. Yes, she is the daughter of a cloned son of Palpatine, but the's also the daughter of a woman, of whom we know nothing about. People are not the sole child of one parent, or another, nor does one grandparent out of 4 have a huge impact on who she is. She's no more a Palpatine than she is whatever the bloodline is that comes from her mother's side. I love that she came from nothing... these folks truly weren't important... even the clone son of Palpatine wasn't important... he didn't even have the Force, so he was kind of an outcast, and escaped from his father, and renounced his name. The Force, as we know, isn't REALLY a bloodline based thing, entirely. Yes, there are instances like Luke and Leia from Anakin... but who are Mace Windu's mother and father? Yoda's? Obi-Wan's? We don't know, and it has never mattered. Were they Force users? Probably not, considering attachment has been forbidden in the Jedi code for a long time, so children born with Force abilities can come from anywhere. My guess is that Rey didn't REALLY inherit the Force from her father... she couldn't have... he didn't have it. It either came from her mother... or it just chose her.
Kylo, not sure how to help there. He's one of my favorites. Very different from Vader and Anakin... hot headed... I believe his return to the light side is one that we could see starting in The Last Jedi, when he couldn't pull the trigger to bring down his own mother. He also was wrestling with what he'd done to his father. He thought that if he took down his father, that it would help him in his quest toward the dark side... but after he'd done so, he realized how little that actually did for him. So he couldn't bring down his mother... not only wouldn't it help him, but deep down, there was good in him. His conversation with Han in Rise was the clincher that allowed him to give up his path to the dark side of the force. And then was the marvelous, too short, moments where his action were almost exactly like Han Solo. When he shrugs, like Han in Return of the Jedi... when he runs and shoots backward without looking, there were so many things that were his Solo mannerisms that finally showed up. I'm not a "Reylo" fan, but I did want to see more of him as Ben Solo.
I LOVED the planet in Rise of Skywalker that they used as their base. LOVED it. And I love the Porgs. But yeah, I can see that. I honestly would have preferred if Jakku was the battle destroyed, half-flooded planet from the concept art, rather than another desert planet. Maybe they'll use that design in the future, for something, though. I know they wanted to shoot the movie similar to how the original trilogy was filmed, and getting a place like that for Jakku wasn't something they could do without digitally building it, or building a lot of wildly expensive and tall sets that also would require a lot of CG, so that was probably what stopped that from happening. That I can completely understand that. Remember, also, though, that the Prequels were at the height of the old republic, pre-war times, hence the hand-made Naboo starfighters vs the churned out X-Wings from just a generation later when war was on. But yeah, I agree.
The things that tie this trilogy to the other two are the characters... Luke, Leia, Han, Chewbacca, C-3PO and R2-D2 (who are both grossly sidelined, I agree, but used where appropriate. Would have loved to see more R2. I feel like 3PO got his due story. Also, the Emperor having created Snoke, and stuff like that. The X-Wings, Tie Fighters, Stormtroopers, so much is direct from the other two trilogies. If what you're looking for is locations, that is the tricky part. I know that they only visited Tatooine once at the end, but imagine if they had gone back to Tatooine for, say, Rey's origin. People would have had a field day with that, moreso than they do now, just saying desert planet. But I digress. I think there are a few planets I would have liked to see again, but I also could see that the story wasn't calling for returns to those planets in a way that was very naturally lending to us returning to those planets.
As for Coruscant vs. Hosnian Prime, that was a fight within Lucasfilm. I recently read about it. The plan was originally to blow up Coruscant, but Lucasfilm made the decision that they could blow up a capitol planet, but it had to be a newly established capitol planet for the New Republic. There were also scenes shot on that planet that wound up cut from the film, which would have helped immensely with those scenes. But yeah, Lucasfilm stopped the destruction of Coruscant from happening.
I also feel like it would have been fun to see Lando doing more, even if it was broadcasting a message, like the lighting of the beacons in The Lord of the Rings. Could you imagine, a beacon lighting sequence in Star Wars, where planet after planet is getting a message from General Lando Calrissian?
I completely understand. To me, each trilogy has their pros and cons, also. My favorite lightsaber battles tend to range, but I felt like Rey and Kylo in the rain was raw and realistic... I feel the same about their battle on Starkiller Base. When she first catches the lightsaber, I got goosebumps, and I'm not kidding. I did not see that coming the first time I saw it. I thought it would be Luke, and when it was Rey, I kid you not, I got chills. It thrilled me to no end. I REALLY wish she had built her yellow bladed lightsaber between movies like Luke with his Green lightsaber. I love that. I have a replica of it. I think the lightsaber battles, like the Starfighters, are a product of their time, and training. There are things in the choreography that are very much intentionally done, with intentionally different styles. Including the fact that Kylo is still lacking in his training, which is why what would have been a killing blow to Finn didn't kill him. I read a study of that from someone who knows swordplay and he said the maneuver that Kylo used on Finn was called something specific, and that Kylo does the move wrong, so Finn lived. I was very interesting reading.
That said, I also love the choreography of the Darth Maul fight in Phantom Menace, quite a bit. Even though many of their attacks clearly would never have made contact with the other fighter, I chalk that up to using the Force while fighting.
I do agree that seeing Luke physically there, battling Kylo, would have been epic. But also, in my mind, would have been the opposite of what Luke was. A Jedi shouldn't be out there taking lives... so taking down all of those walkers would have been on the same plane as Darth Vader dispatching rebel soldiers in the hallway. And that would have been the temptation there. Instead, Luke uses a technique that allows Kylo to think he's got Luke right there, and allows Luke to talk to Kylo, without Kylo continuously shutting any conversation with Luke down.
Not sure if this helped at all.. I do agree with a lot of what you said.
Luke wasn't changed into a pathetic failure, he was a character who had lived a life, and we got to see him have a character arc that went from someone who had decided to bring what he believed to be the right thing to do (ending the Jedi order that he felt had failed the universe), and instead learning and growing, and realizing that burning down everything wasn't actually the right thing to do. And once again becoming the inspiration the galaxy needed to stand together against tyranny. That's quite the character arc, and a good one.
To be fair, we don't know how many times Luke and Leia trained the way they had done so in that scene. Perhaps we just saw a glimpse of one in which Leia bested Luke. I'm sure if they showed more, we would have seen Luke best Leia a few times as well. Luke was TRAINING Leia, not in combat with her. I wouldn't call that malicious. I would call that training.
Leia's marriage to Han having crashed and burned disappointed me, until I learned more of what had happened. And it looked like they were on the road to recovery, there, which would have been amazing to see.
I feel like I've said my piece about Prince Caspian a lot in the 14 years since it was released, but I understand why you are using it for comparison here.
I feel like Rey Skywalker is not afforded the same grace that we seem to give Luke Skywalker. Luke barely trained in The Empire Strikes Back. Maybe for a few days, if that, while Han and Leia were headed to Cloud City. And then he FINALLY returned to Yoda to complete his training in Return of the Jedi, still not as a Jedi... he had to confront Vader first to complete his training, and become a Jedi.
Rey Skywalker, for the record, is allowed to choose her name, and she's done so, to honor Luke and Leia. She's lived on her own on Jakku since she was a child, carrying a staff, knows how to pilot ships and speeders (clearly she knew the history of what had happened to the Falcon after it had been taken from Han, so she could tell him what she'd done to fix something that she knew had happened). Plus, she was a scavenger, taking parts from old Star Destroyers and other Empire era vehicles like the Walker she lived within on Jakku. She had to do so for food, so that she could live, while she waited for her family. But she wasn't the best ever. She was flawed. How many times did she crash the Falcon into things while taking off? Tons. She was only seen piloting a few things in the trilogy, and each time, she wasn't all that great at it. Nor was she all that great at fighting with a lightsaber, but all of the practice she had defending herself with a staff, she clearly could take from that experience to grow into a good fighter with a blade. She knows how to react appropriately when in a fight for her life. She's done so for well over a decade. And she trains constantly when on the island, both without Luke, by herself, and with Luke. And she trains with Leia. Both of them were more of a parental figure for her than her own parents had been.
I consider Mike Zeroh to be a part of the Fandom Menace... and most of the stuff he releases turns out to be false narratives meant to rile up the natives and keep his viewers "happy." I don't quite understand what you're getting at here, with regard to Superman. I've read a lot of comics, and know a LOT about Superman. I just don't know what you're getting at, and I refuse to watch something Mike Zeroh crafted and contextualized. I would like to know what Kennedy said, exactly, who she said it to and why, and what she was responding to when she said it, and when it was spoken. I can't exactly comment more on that until I know.
I think Finn needed more of a resolution than just feeling the force. And from what I hear, there is a possibility that there could be a series in the future that takes on Finn's story, post-Rise of Skywalker. I would LOVE that. I would want him training with Rey, as I mentioned above somewhere, in the ways of the Force. That would be my dream. And perhaps he and Rey get together and start a little Jedi family.
Yeah, I wish they had more depth to the pull to the dark side. Something more than finding a way to live eternally, which ironically, the Jedi do, and the Sith do not, as far as I know. (At least as far as we know, storywise.)
Rogue One is set just a bit before A New Hope (Episode 4). I really like that one.
Copperfox
Well-known member
"Luke barely trained"-- but he did have to DEVELOP, and it still took three whole movies for him to reach real Jedi status. By huge contrast, as desired by Kathleen Force-Is-Female Kennedy, Rey already was better than everybody as soon as she popped up. There's no comparison at all. Where Luke had to earn all his progress, Rey simply WAS the best-est evvah from the get-go, because girl power girl power girl power.
By way of contrasting, though, Luke grew up on a moisture farm. He new how to pilot a T-16 Skyhopper, and drive a Speeder. He could bullseye womprats with his Skyhopper as well. He was somehow also able to fly an X-Wing and did better in the Death Star battle than most of the trained X-Wing pilots, and was the one to take down the Death Star using the Force. Something he'd had very little training in, at that point.
Somehow, Luke seems to get a pass.
I don't care how Kennedy feels about things. I believe they weren't saying that the Force was only Female. I believe it was more of a statement that women can have a place in Star Wars, too.
Remember, also, that Luke, in the original script, THE STAR WARS, was going to be female.
Anyway, going back to Rey. Rather than growing up on a moisture farm, she had to fend for herself for something like 12 years. She eventually made a staff for herself to defend herself. She also learned how to pilot things like speeders and ships, but never had plans to leave until her family came back. Also, because of her need to learn how to survive on Jakku, alone, she had other skills, like being able to sneak around unseen, and how to fight off anyone looking for trouble, as we saw in her attack on Finn when they first met.
I sometimes wonder if Rey had been male, would they character have been so disputed? Or would the argument be more about who is more powerful, Luke or male Rey?
I frankly don't see the problem with female heroes rising in Star Wars. It's never been a problem in Star Wars before. When Leia suddenly takes a gun and starts blasting Stormtroopers on the Death Star. When Leia stands up to Darth Vader and lies to his face. When Leia fights in the battle of Endor. The most problematic part, when Leia kills Jabba, because she became objectified before that point, such that, until Rey, every convention I went to had tons of Slave Leia costumed women walking around... now I see mostly Rey, at least before the pandemic. That's a big win.
Since Return of the Jedi, when they decided to rewrite Leia into Luke's twin, Leia has been at least as powerful as Luke in the ways of the Force. We just never got to see that portrayed. That was always a shame, to me. After all, it was Luke who said "in time, you'll learn to use it as I have."
Copperfox
Well-known member
It doesn't require much examination to see the glaring difference between HAVING female heroes and spitefully destroying MALE heroes. If we dislike virtual omnipotence being arbitrarily conferred on female characters and only female characters for the express purpose of humiliating men, Kathleen Kennedy's coven pretends to believe (knowing this to be false) that we are against having ANY strong females ever. Neither I, nor any other male fan I know, hates Ahsoka Tano or Cara Dune. But much of Disney's use of super-goddess characters has long since gone far beyond merely making space for women.
Yes, Rey knows machinery, good for her. But this does not justify saying that she could know HAN'S own ship BETTER than Han knows it. That was not any kind of story logic, it was blatant female triumphalism.
If the character of Luke Skywalker had been female from the very start, I would still have gone to see the movie. I'm a huge fan of Alita the Battle Angel, and of Sarah Connor. But if Star Wars had begun with a girl on Tattooine instead of a boy, the Disney crowd would never even have considered making her turn into a pathetic failure later in life.
Then there's the ridiculous Rose Tico. She was put in there simply, and crudely, to assert Disney's across-the-board "Women are better than men, period" narrative. As I have observed before now, the bit with her stopping Finn from attacking the First Order landing force was contrived purely and only to let her lecture him: "This is how we'll win: not by fighting what we hate, but by saving what we love." All the writers cared about here was creating the FEELING that Rose Tico was ever so much wiser than Finn; but what she said was in fact idiotic. Saving what we love? Hello! Finn had JUST BEEN trying to save those he loved. And Rose never scolded Admiral Holdo for fighting the enemy-- because the point never was to avoid fighting, it was always to portray men as inferior and clueless.
Yes, Rey knows machinery, good for her. But this does not justify saying that she could know HAN'S own ship BETTER than Han knows it. That was not any kind of story logic, it was blatant female triumphalism.
If the character of Luke Skywalker had been female from the very start, I would still have gone to see the movie. I'm a huge fan of Alita the Battle Angel, and of Sarah Connor. But if Star Wars had begun with a girl on Tattooine instead of a boy, the Disney crowd would never even have considered making her turn into a pathetic failure later in life.
Then there's the ridiculous Rose Tico. She was put in there simply, and crudely, to assert Disney's across-the-board "Women are better than men, period" narrative. As I have observed before now, the bit with her stopping Finn from attacking the First Order landing force was contrived purely and only to let her lecture him: "This is how we'll win: not by fighting what we hate, but by saving what we love." All the writers cared about here was creating the FEELING that Rose Tico was ever so much wiser than Finn; but what she said was in fact idiotic. Saving what we love? Hello! Finn had JUST BEEN trying to save those he loved. And Rose never scolded Admiral Holdo for fighting the enemy-- because the point never was to avoid fighting, it was always to portray men as inferior and clueless.
What Male heroes were spitefully destroyed? I still don't know of one who was. Luke triumphantly became the legendary Luke Skywalker, Jedi Master, bringing hope to the universe once again by the end. Han reclaimed his ship, and helped to bring his son back from the dark side. Poe finally wisened up to become a leader. Finn finally decided to join with the only family he ever knew, and stop running, and also became a leader, and also could feel the Force. Ben Solo finally gives up his search for power, and selflessly gives of himself after being selfish for so long.
I don't see humiliation apart from where it was needed for Poe, so he would actually grow from being a smart-mouthed flyboy into a man who can lead an army, and in that case it came from Leia directly, which is appropriate, because it's Leia, of whom Poe has great admiration.
The one thing other reference that I have to make here, to Cara Dune and Ahsoka Tano... neither of them were the lead character of a trilogy of films. Ahsoka is finally going to lead her own series on Disney+, and that's cool, but neither of them has yet lead anything. I don't know much about Cara Dune beyond the few episodes she was in, in The Mandalorian. Ahsoka is a character that we saw grow up from calling Anakin "sky guy" into a full blown Jedi, and beyond. But we got to see that over many many years of content. What if we get a series about Young Rey of Jakku? What if she's afforded the same expanded storytelling? The Star Wars prequels benefited greatly from The Clone Wars animated series, with even side characters getting airtime, and all of that content helped to color the experience of watching the prequels. I feel like series with the characters of the sequel trilogy would help to flesh things out such that all of this stuff becomes more clear.
She was never shown to know Han's ship better than Han. Only that, at one time, she knew of a modification that had happened to it, since Han had last possessed it. Han wouldn't have known about that. He had just gotten the ship back. That is, if you're talking about the "I bypassed the compressor" scene.
Once again... Luke was not turned into a pathetic failure. If he was, I didn't see it. Luke was turned into a triumphant hero. The film was called "The Last Jedi," based on the opening crawl of The Force Awakens, where it describes Luke Skywalker as the last Jedi. The title might as well have been "Star Wars: Luke Skywalker," because that's who the title referenced directly. It was all about his decisions that he made, that he was fallible, and capable of making mistakes, but also capable of making good decisions. He got a final lesson from Yoda as well. Had he simply been the same character that he was in Return of the Jedi, it would have been a character that didn't grow, or learn, or change, in 30 years, and no human being I have ever met is like that. Having Luke be in a situation where his character has an arc allowing for growth is important. Otherwise the character is too static.
Rose knew that what Finn was doing was not going to help, though. Finn was flying an old ski-ship into a battering ram cannon. It may not have even made a dent... In fact, all they had to do was fire it at him, and it might have just destroyed him and continued to fire at the door anyway. She saved him from making a mistake that might have cost him his life, and saved no one. And Rose never scolded Admiral Holdo because Rose is not in any position to scold Admiral Holdo. I don't believe they ever even spoke, let alone shared the screen together.
I don't believe the point was ever to portray men as inferior and clueless. It was simply that a character was making a poor decision, and another character stopped that poor decision from happening. It might have been helped if Finn wasn't the only one to try and take down the cannon, and instead of her taking Finn down without knowing that it wouldn't work, if some other ship with another character went first, and it didn't work, in some way, and then Finn was also going to try but she stopped him. Or, another option that would have changed things directly. What if her speech came over his headset, as he was flying toward it, and instead of her knocking him out of the sky, she slammed into the cannon, pulling a small Holdo Maneuver of her own, and destroying the cannon before Finn even got there.
Copperfox
Well-known member
Forum boss gets the last word. But I already said I would have gone to a version of "New Hope" which had a female main character; Alita and Sarah Connor ARE the main characters in their movies, ditto Ripley in "Alien;" Han Solo becoming a total failure in his personal life SURE IS destroying a hero; it's no accident that Leia was shown as having her act together far better than Han did; Finn's action being ineffective only proves that the writers didn't want a man to BE effective at this point, since they could just as easily have made it so he DID have a way to slow the enemy onslaught; Rose's speech still is dumb; and you know that Luke could have "grown" just fine WITHOUT having to sink so far as to consider murdering his sleeping nephew.
Oh, and I almost forgot. In "Force Awakens," Han told Finn that women ALWAYS know if a man is lying. This was a categorical statement of female superiority. We all know that if a movie character claimed that MEN as a group held any superiority over all women in wisdom, THAT character would be loudly condemned for misogyny. But Han says women are superior-- crickets chirp.
Oh, and I almost forgot. In "Force Awakens," Han told Finn that women ALWAYS know if a man is lying. This was a categorical statement of female superiority. We all know that if a movie character claimed that MEN as a group held any superiority over all women in wisdom, THAT character would be loudly condemned for misogyny. But Han says women are superior-- crickets chirp.
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I just love Star Wars.
I wouldn't call what happened to Han making him a total failure in his personal life. I know way too many people in similar situations, and I would never call them total failures. Han's heroic status returned the moment Ben Solo returned to the light, if he had lost it at all.
Yep... Leia had been royalty, Han had been a smuggler. It does make sense.
That would have made what looked and felt like an unwinnable situation less impactful when Luke showed up. It had to be a no-win game.
I just don't agree. Saving what we love is why we go to war against tyranny. Luke has always been a bit brash, and he nearly always made bad decisions when he acted out... leaving Dagobah to help Han and Leia... what happened? He wound up being the one needing rescue, lost his lightsaber and his hand. He learned who his father might be, which was only really confirmed by Return of the Jedi. Many people at the time thought Vader was a liar. And when Vader figured out Leia was Luke's twin sister, he was able to draw Luke out from hiding. However, as that sequence unraveled, we learned that Luke only BRIEFLY considered and then changed his mind, too late. His hot-headed temper got him into a mess that he should not have put himself in. He made a mistake. It's pretty relatable to me.
Since the start of the pandemic, I've been rewatching old sitcoms, from The Cosby Show, to Family Matters, Perfect Strangers, Full House, Step by Step, and Growing Pains. I'm pretty sure I've heard that statement in practically all of these shows. It's an old joke. I didn't think anything deeper than that I had heard it dozens of times, in dozens of shows and movies over the years. I'm rewatching the TV show Chuck at the moment, and I'm pretty sure some version of that has been said a few times in the first season, already. I don't think that has anything to do with superiority. I think it has to do with a joke that men can't get away with lying to women. This episode of Full House I just watched this week had the guys explaining to Steve how he shouldn't fall into the trap of answering when his girlfriend asks how her dress makes her look, or if he noticed this other woman they walked past. Steve said he would say "no," but they explained "no, you would say 'what other woman?'" And at the same time, the women were talking to DJ about how men are. None of those statements are really new to me.
I do understand the double standard there, though, and how it made you feel. I get it. If it was Leia and Rey talking about Finn, and the same dialog was used, I think it would have been very interesting to see the response. What would be funny is if they both had the same conversation at the same time.
OMG I totally forgot about Rose and her "saving what we love" speech when, in fact, it was one of the highlights of the film for me! I did NOT see that as girl power or feminine superiority at all but as deep, spiritual truth! She is a stand-out character, not cuz she's female, but because she is smart, has soul, and has sacrificial courage and love. A wonderful character and I wanted MORE of her!
Copperfox
Well-known member
I repeat: fighting what we hate, when that enemy IS what threatens what we love, IS saving what we love. The rebuke was empty, and was written in for NO OTHER REASON than to make a female seem better than a male. This is clear if you just reverse genders-- exactly as it is clear that a MAN claiming any categorical superiority over women like always catching lies would be vilified.
If Rose had been the one making a useless attack, and a MAN had stopped her and then lectured her, the girl-power-above-all crowd would NEVER have called the intervening man deep and spiritual. They would have SHRIEKED, "Patriarchy! Sexism!" An advocate of the girl-power position has previously argued here that it was all right for Admiral Holdo to fight the enemy, because her action could be effective. But Rose herself didn't even address effectiveness. She simply told Finn he shouldn't be fighting, without telling him what he WAS allowed to do to save those he loved.
And all the times Rey cleaned the clocks of male opponents, neither Rose nor any other "spiritual" character ever told HER she shouldn't be fighting.
Here's a content creator who shows how a female character can be impressive WITHOUT undercutting males and maleness.
If Rose had been the one making a useless attack, and a MAN had stopped her and then lectured her, the girl-power-above-all crowd would NEVER have called the intervening man deep and spiritual. They would have SHRIEKED, "Patriarchy! Sexism!" An advocate of the girl-power position has previously argued here that it was all right for Admiral Holdo to fight the enemy, because her action could be effective. But Rose herself didn't even address effectiveness. She simply told Finn he shouldn't be fighting, without telling him what he WAS allowed to do to save those he loved.
And all the times Rey cleaned the clocks of male opponents, neither Rose nor any other "spiritual" character ever told HER she shouldn't be fighting.
Here's a content creator who shows how a female character can be impressive WITHOUT undercutting males and maleness.
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Let's dissect this for a moment. First, as I have said before, the cannon was ready to go and nothing he would have done could have stopped it from firing. Not with that little ship. It was just about to fire and then it did right after he got knocked off-course, and that blast would have likely just disintegrated him and the ship, right there.
Let's reverse the genders, how about, and for this experiment, let's also replace the characters with different actors just for the fun of it. Let's say we have Rachel McAdams, and she's piloting the ski-speeder to the cannon, trying to be a hero. As she approaches the cannon, another speeder knocks her off course. She gets out of her speeder and runs over to his, and removes his helmet. It's Ryan Gosling. He looks up at her, and he whispers "That's how we're gonna win. Not by fighting what we hate. But saving what we love." He finishes the lines while staring directly into Rachel McAdams' tear-filled eyes. Hearts melt, women everywhere are reminded of The Notebook, and the men groan because once again, here's a man saying the exact right thing that a woman wants to hear.
It's easy to think that women would hate a man stopping a woman from trying to be a hero, but in action? I don't think it's that black-and-white. I think it's more nuanced than that. There are things that I feel, if reversed, would come across very poorly, but this isn't one of them. Reversed, I think it comes across the same. Also, point to note: Luke's confrontation of Vader in Return of the Jedi. Rather than fighting what he hated, he sought to save what he loved. He constantly wanted to save his father through the third act, all the way through dragging his dying father through the death star to get to a ship.
Interestingly, I don't think Holdo's plan was ever to take the ship into hyperspace right at the Star Destroyers. The latest time I watched the movie, probably about a week ago, or so, I noticed that the plan was the escape, and my guess based on what was happening, is that the escaping ships would make it to the planet, unseen by the First Order, and establish a base on the planet below, to call for help, and once they were clear, Holdo was going to take the ship to Hyperspace one more time, to lead the First Order Fleet away from the Resistance. I think it was possible that she would then be captured, once she came out of hyperspace, and the First Order would be confused to have found an empty ship, all except for one admiral, lest there be an escape pod of some sort for her to use, to escape whenever she exited hyperspace. When the Resistance was betrayed by DJ, and the First Order was told exactly what their plan was, Holdo saw their plan falling apart and changed the direction of her final hyperspace jump.
I saw the username of the creator... and I gotta say... already was turned off by that. I am not a fan of folks that take on the name of the ultimate evil, even ironically. I thought I would give him the benefit of the doubt, though, since I shared a youtube video about why Rey isn't a mary sue, it's the fair thing to do. But then I saw he has a video about why "Rey is a Mary Sue and Luke Skywalker is not." If you don't mind, what was the "One thing" he would do to "Fix" Rey? I'm curious.
In all honesty, no two people ever see the same movie, show, art, anything in the same way, not even if we were sitting together watching, say, The Empire Strikes Back. This is evident by how we both hear the dialog in these films, and interpret it differently.
Specter's analysis is so good, changing the actors/genders and seeing how it comes across just as lovely in the "saving what we love" scene, so I won't add to that.
What I will do, out of old habits of relating everything to Jesus (hey, Apostle Paul did it, so I am following in his footsteps, right?) is say: Jesus's victory for us on the cross was the ultimate case of not fighting what you hate but saving what you love! He didn't fight anyone (of course, I believe he didn't hate anyone, either, but for my purposes, we'll not explore that right now). Rather he saved us -- and everyone else -- through the seeming act of defeat that we now celebrate on Good Friday. Saving what you love is the only victory you can claim, ultimately. Fighting what you hate just knits you more closely to what you hate in violence and body count, but saving what you love, though more difficult, has a higher chance of leaving you and what you love victorious ...IMHO. I could be wrong.
What I will do, out of old habits of relating everything to Jesus (hey, Apostle Paul did it, so I am following in his footsteps, right?) is say: Jesus's victory for us on the cross was the ultimate case of not fighting what you hate but saving what you love! He didn't fight anyone (of course, I believe he didn't hate anyone, either, but for my purposes, we'll not explore that right now). Rather he saved us -- and everyone else -- through the seeming act of defeat that we now celebrate on Good Friday. Saving what you love is the only victory you can claim, ultimately. Fighting what you hate just knits you more closely to what you hate in violence and body count, but saving what you love, though more difficult, has a higher chance of leaving you and what you love victorious ...IMHO. I could be wrong.
Princess Frances
Active member
Nope. Kenobi and Vader did not face off between RotS & ANH. There's an interview with George during one of the Celebrations, I think 3, where he said "they haven't seen each other in almost twenty years..." but now I can't seem to find it even though it was available a couple weeks ago. Strange. Regardless, since GL isn't the most reliable source anyway, the line in ep 4 "when last we met I was but the learner, now I am the master" is now meaningless. Can anyone honestly say that Vader was acting as a 'learner' during this? They even go to the trouble of mentioning a fan favorite, Quinlan Vos; why couldn't he be the one to meet Vader? Speaking of Vader, why did he kill those two civilians? Sure, he's the villain, but he doesn't go around randomly killing people for no reason.
It seemed odd to me that Reva needed permission from the other inquisitors to launch more probe droids. Why not just order the officer tasked with that function?
The part where Ben was reminiscing about his life before going to the Jedi Academy, he mentions maybe having a brother. While this was declared apocryphal long ago, the RotJ established that Owen Lars is actually his brother... just an interesting aside.
During the end scene, Vader is torturing Ben in fire when it suddenly goes out; presumably by the Force. Seconds later, a blaster shot starts the the flames again, in order to rescue Obi-Wan, yet Vader seems powerless to do anything about it this time. No use of the Force to pull Kenobi toward him, or even stop the droid he can clearly see?
It seemed odd to me that Reva needed permission from the other inquisitors to launch more probe droids. Why not just order the officer tasked with that function?
The part where Ben was reminiscing about his life before going to the Jedi Academy, he mentions maybe having a brother. While this was declared apocryphal long ago, the RotJ established that Owen Lars is actually his brother... just an interesting aside.
During the end scene, Vader is torturing Ben in fire when it suddenly goes out; presumably by the Force. Seconds later, a blaster shot starts the the flames again, in order to rescue Obi-Wan, yet Vader seems powerless to do anything about it this time. No use of the Force to pull Kenobi toward him, or even stop the droid he can clearly see?
When Vader left Obi-Wan he was a learner. He hasn't rejoined Obi-Wan since then. Being in the same place is not the same as being joined together in the same order.
Anakin Skywalker did leave Obi-Wan behind as a learner. He continued to train, even beyond this, and became a master before meeting Obi-Wan again in A New Hope.
George Lucas did say it had been a while, at the time, but that doesn't mean there isn't room to change that a bit. Afterall, George himself changed many things that were pretty major.
Luke and Leia weren't originally brother and sister, Vader and Anakin weren't originally the same character, and probably the biggest problem I had with Revenge of the Sith:
Luke: do you remember your mother Leia? I mean, your real mother?
Leia should not remember her real mother based on what happens to her shortly after she is born. Leia isn't talking about her adoptive mother, she's talking about Padme Amidala. And she remembers her..somehow.
I believe that fire scene with Vader was also emotionally charged for the both of them, and Vader in particular was pretty drained at that point.
Going back to the civilians, I will watch for that when I watch the episode again later. I am thinking he only takes down those who pose an immediate threat to himself, which is also why he may have held back against Kenobi in the end there. The conflict within him upon confronting his old master must have been stirring within him. And Obi-Wan was out of practice for 10 years. Vader wanted more than that if he was going to win definitively.
Anakin Skywalker did leave Obi-Wan behind as a learner. He continued to train, even beyond this, and became a master before meeting Obi-Wan again in A New Hope.
George Lucas did say it had been a while, at the time, but that doesn't mean there isn't room to change that a bit. Afterall, George himself changed many things that were pretty major.
Luke and Leia weren't originally brother and sister, Vader and Anakin weren't originally the same character, and probably the biggest problem I had with Revenge of the Sith:
Luke: do you remember your mother Leia? I mean, your real mother?
Leia should not remember her real mother based on what happens to her shortly after she is born. Leia isn't talking about her adoptive mother, she's talking about Padme Amidala. And she remembers her..somehow.
I believe that fire scene with Vader was also emotionally charged for the both of them, and Vader in particular was pretty drained at that point.
Going back to the civilians, I will watch for that when I watch the episode again later. I am thinking he only takes down those who pose an immediate threat to himself, which is also why he may have held back against Kenobi in the end there. The conflict within him upon confronting his old master must have been stirring within him. And Obi-Wan was out of practice for 10 years. Vader wanted more than that if he was going to win definitively.
Peepiceek
Well-known member
Yeah, the 3rd episode of Obi-Wan Kenobi released on Disney+, which puts us halfway through the story.