Tash

Gibby, you missed my point entirely. Please read it again without all the filters. So many people have come to know Christ without scripture mostly because there was no scripture in their language.

The LAW is just another Tash. The LAW has been fulfilled. The LAW is dead. It has been replaced by the GOSPEL of the Christ, which is not a LAW. In fact, the GOSPEL is the hardest concept to accept and understand. It is harder to follow than the LAW, because the LAW lays out a lot of DOs and DON'Ts. But the GOSPEL entails that you and I have to be the Christ to the world. There is no black and white in the GOSPEL. Loving one another exclusively is so stressful that it will drive the sanest man absolutely crazy.
 
I appreciate that people will be praying for me, but please do not pray for me to somehow come back to a fundamentalistic core of a cosmology that does not exist. I have left that Tash behind.

The fact that Lewis believed in a devil is just one point of view when discussing his works. He may, in fact, have had that central in his mind when he wrote of the existence of Tash. Yet, that does not negate any discussion that Tash exists in many forms within the human mind and existence.

I will reiterate what I wrote before: I am Satan, and I am Tash. As long as I wear this Earthly flesh and possess a human nature, my very being and core is Anti-Christ. Therefore, living with and in the Christ, I struggle every nanosecond of the day to cast out the Satan/Tash that desires ascendancy and show the Love and Light of the Christ around me.

Prince, from your posts, I have to conclude that you are a Roman Catholic. Roman Catholics are required to believe in angels. Again, see my reference that details that dogma. Dogma, in and of itself, ends up being a Tash. Rather than dogma serving us, we end up serving the Dogma.

Now before anyone accuses me of Roman Catholic bashing, the same principle holds true for every Christian sect, right down into the individual congregation. There are so many Tashs set up with a single congregation, which become the all-important that needs servicing, and Christ is conveniently removed so that servitude to a particular Tash may be conducted.
 
One very conspicuous absence from Narnia is the existence of angels and demons, bar Tash, if one wants to refer it to a demon.

Instead, the Will of Aslan is conducted solely through very real and animate creatures, human and otherwise. You will also note the absence of any kind of deus ex machina in Lewis' Chronicles.

How many times do we hear of Lucy asking for Aslan to be present? Her thinking is that if Aslan makes his presence known that he will fix everything. The blessed news is that Aslan is with her and the others at all times. But it is not Aslan doing the work; it is those who love him and believe in him that do the work.

So, too, in this very real world. In essence, God does nothing. But He receives the glory. In our apparent inability to fathom God, we like to assign very human attributes to God: He is male; He has ears to hear; He has eyes to see; He has hands and feet. In actuality, God is not corporeal at all but exists in all things as all things exist in Him. People are His hands, feet, voices, mouths, etc. We people are charged with performing His will, and even when we screw up, "good" will triumph over the "evil," which is the best that we humans can do at the best of times.

-----

There is one more point I'd like to reiterate for people to just think about.

Draw a circle on a piece of paper. Label that circle God. God is the entire universe. He is All. Now, where are you going to put hell? If most people draw another circle and label it hell, then they have negated the most basic teaching of both the Jewish and Christian religions. They have just created another universe that is equal to that of God, and that cannot be accepted if we profess that Christ is God and that God is All.

We worship the Living God, the One and Only God. Everything belongs to this One God, including whatever hell a person wishes to conceive.
 
Tennis indeed! This is a very interesting thread; it really is. I suspect I come from a slightly different point of view than many here. As I gather the thread; we are discussing whether or not there is a literal devil or angels; as well as the authority of scripture. Oh, and Tash, of course. :D

For the record--I am firmly convinced of the reality of both. Yet, I also agree with Wallis to an extent--we do have the natural man who tempts us. Part of being here on earth is to overcome the natural man.
As for angels--I believe the term means Messenger--so under that defintion, there are angels--there have to be. Or do you think that if, say, John the Revelator showed up at your door he would not be an angel? Or Isaiah, or Ezekiel? They all would qualify as Angels, I believe. And if you say they cannot appear--why not? Are they gone, or dissolved, or what? If they are--then are you not arguing that the Resurrection is a falsity? And if so--then belief in Christ seems rather pointless, if there is no resurrection.

As to devils and the existence of Tash--I agree that C.S. Lewis believed in a literal devil; the Screwtape letters seem to be ample proof of that. I also don't think that the Lord created the devil--the Devil fell, it says; presumably of his own choice. And how can man have freedom to choose, save he is enticed by both sides? I know that temptations come to me that are not from just my flesh; as they would not naturally come at that point. Satan is tempting me, then. Yes, just because we have a natural man which influences us does not mean that there is no devil, either.

I agree-there is a problem in scripture about the Devil--he is not mentioned much. But if he tempted Christ (who, I hope you would say, does not have the natural man as much as any of us) then why would he not exist? Every day, I must choose my master--God, or Satan. Sometimes, every hour or minute--both are striving for my allegience. It is, however, up to me to choose which one to follow.

In your last post, Wallis, you are painting a picture of God that is very, very different than the one I believe the scriptures demonstrate. From what I can tell--you are saying God doesn't exist, in any meaningful sense. He is nowhere, and everywhere. You say, draw a circle--it is the universe, and it is God. I'd like to know--where does that come from? I certainly never read about that in the New Testament... I read things like the Voice of God speaking on the mount of Transfiguration to Jesus and his apostles. I agree that people do God's work, but that doesn't mean that God cannot do His own work. Jesus commanded us to pray to our Father in Heaven--what did He mean? Where is Heaven, and what does "Father" mean? If Jesus was speaking to the great unlearned, and thus couldn't tell them the truth, should we then be praying to the great amorphous mass who is everywhere and nowhere? It sounds like God is unknowable, as you describe him. Yet, Paul seemed to think that he could teach people how to know God.

I'm not trying to attack you; nor am I a fundamentalist or Catholic. I'm just honestly confused as to what you believe in--it sounds like you believe in nothing. Or, rather, whatever you believe in is for all practical purposes nothing. I hope I'm wrong. For the record, I agree with lots of what you say--the Bible, in my view, has some errors; whether they be translation, copying, what have you. Clearly, we know much more about mental illnesses now, too. But just because it's not perfect do I think it's all wrong, either. I think I hew a middle road in this discussion....

As for Tash (to bring this semi-ontopic), I think Lewis meant him to represent evil. There are but two churches only, really--the Church of God, and the church of the devil. What I mean is that there are true followers of Christ in every religious sect, as well as hypocrites, liars, etc.--followers of evil. I think Tash is a representation of that idea. :)

Wow, this is a long post... I think I'm up for some tennis. :D
 
Parthian King said:
Tennis anyone?

HAHAHAHA!! Nice one!

Right, I'm a terror for these threads cos I have a short attention span and end up flickin thru the really long ones!! :eek: (A bit like in the duffers where you come on and theres 5 pages of new posts to read through) Anyway, I tend to skim read and pick up on things that come to my attention, so if I make any incorrect quotes or pickups please forgive me and correct me!

I disagree with Wallis statement that the LAW has gone. I believe this is totally incorrect. The LAW still stands now. The GOSPEL preaches that, although the LAW still stands, we cannot fulfil it through our own strength and we must rely wholly on God and the sacrifice of Jesus Christ for the LAW to be fulfilled. The LAW still stands though.
 
waterhogboy said:
HAHAHAHA!! Nice one!

Right, I'm a terror for these threads cos I have a short attention span and end up flickin thru the really long ones!! :eek: (A bit like in the duffers where you come on and theres 5 pages of new posts to read through) Anyway, I tend to skim read and pick up on things that come to my attention, so if I make any incorrect quotes or pickups please forgive me and correct me!

.

I'm with you WHB. As I get into some of the longer posts, my mind starts to wander and I have to wake up and go back to the last point on the post that I remember my noggin soaking up the info and then I have to pick it up from there. Maybe I have adult ADD or something...what was I talking about? Ah, yes...I like tennis too you guys; it's fun! That's the game where you hit the ball with a bat, right? (no wait, that's football, DOH!).
j.k.
 
Okay, then, I'll keep this post brief. The stance "God is the entire universe" is the very definition of a theology called Pantheism. That is explicitly not the Judeo-Christian faith. To put that out there as a model and then say it doesn't support hell is not only a logical fallacy, but a phenomenal ignorance of theology.
 
Nope. Pantheism: 1. A doctrine identifying the Deity with the universe and its phenomena. 2. Belief in and worship of all gods.



As a college professor, I am no longer appalled and disappointed with the lack of ability in my students. They are a product of the school system, after all. People cannot read and comprehend; they cannot listen and understand; and, above all, they lack the ability to think for themselves.

I am disappointed that in this forum and others that posters refuse--repeat--refuse to do any research before writing their posts. So many people engage their fingers before they engage their brains. And what they do impart again is just another Tash they are serving.

Before I start posting, showing my ignorance, I do practice research. Since the WWW is so handy, it takes but a few key strokes and a click or two to view what is out there. And then, it takes open cognizance to evaluate what might hold true for me.

"We conclude from the Bible that God is sovereign over all things, eternal and infinite, all powerful, all knowing, and present everywhere at once." God, Everything

What the Prince seems to imply is that God is separate from the universe. God just created it but is only reactive. Reactive: 1. Tending to be responsive or to react to a stimulus. 2. Characterized by reaction. No credence is given to the possibility that God can be proactive as well. Whatever his implications are, he is practicing a characteristic denial of any information or thought that disturbs his individualistic, fabricated understanding of the cosmology of Christiandom. In addition, to deny that God is in everything and is the source of everything is to embody the idea that God is reduced to a player, vying for souls against an opponent almost as powerful as Himself.

Anyone who has studied any psychology classes will understand that a person is a product of his/her environment. And, as a person matures, filters are created within the brain that discriminate and even block forms of communication. One word alone is enough to trigger these filters. When I speak the word "dog," disparate images and thoughts emerge involuntarily within the minds of the listeners. So, too, here, when certain words are typed, such as "theologian," "angel," "Satan,": images pop up in the minds of the readers that prevent understanding.

Understanding that each of us are biased is understanding that we have created a Tash within us that we serve. We view the world through an internal colored lens that most of us do not wish to remove. Otherwise, we might see something challenging to our inner convictions, something unstabizing to that comfortable little world that each of us has constructed. Again, we have created a Tash, and we are subservient to that idealized world that we just created.

Goes back to when you believe something, it becomes real. As a child, I believe all of us played with dolls and teddy bears and whatnot. We spoke to our toys, and they talked back. Maybe some of us had invisible friends or playmates. They were as real as real can be. That most of us have put away the "childish" things and concepts, what was real is no longer real and no longer exists. Instead, we have created new ideas and concepts that are real to us. And most of us cannot let go of these "real" things.

But when we understand that Christ is real, that Salvation by Grace is real, that Christ is with us and in us every nanosecond of the day is real, then all else really isn't real. All the rest does not matter. All the Tashs of the world fall apart, and the real Aslan stands alone as the center of our lives. All of the missions we feel that we must do in this life, bar one, are meaningless and become only Tashs that seek out to control us. That one mission in life is to love one another unconditionally. Unconditionally, without reservation, without prejudice or discrimination, without judgment or condemnation.
 
God's Acceptance

Smallcald Articles

THE THIRD PART OF THE ARTICLES
Article XIII: How One is Justified before God,
and of Good Works
__________
What I have hitherto and constantly taught concerning this I know not how to change in the least, namely, that by faith, as St. Peter says, we acquire a new and clean heart, and God will and does account us entirely righteous and holy for the sake of Christ, our Mediator. And although sin in the flesh has not yet been altogether removed or become dead, yet He will not punish or remember it.
And such faith, renewal, and forgiveness of sins is followed by good works. And what there is still sinful or imperfect also in them shall not be accounted as sin or defect, even [and that, too] for Christ's sake; but the entire man, both as to his person and his works, is to be called and to be righteous and holy from pure grace and mercy, shed upon us [unfolded] and spread over us in Christ. Therefore we cannot boast of many merits and works, if they are viewed apart from grace and mercy, but as it is written, 1 Cor. 1, 31: He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord, namely, that he has a gracious God. For thus all is well. We say, besides, that if good works do not follow, faith is false and not true.
Smallcald Article

-----

God's Reconciliation

-----

God's acceptance is extended to all. The plan of God was to work with a chosen people to effect his plan of salvation for all the nations (Gen.12:3). Now, in the "fullness of time" (Gal. 4:4), those who have been outside of God's revelation have the light shown to them. In the "Great Commission," the Gentiles would receive the good news of God's grace to all people, Jew or Gentile. Survey of the NT

-----

Biblical support: God's Acceptance, Bible
 
You're confusing terms. The latter half of your definition ("Belief in and worship of all gods") is that of polytheism. Pantheism is the identification of god with everything that exists. A pantheist believes himself to be "part" of god in the same way that a skin or nerve cell is part of our body. A strict pantheist would also believe the same thing about his neighbor, his dog, and his toaster.

This is the standard definition of pantheism used by theologians and philosophers, including Schaeffer, Von Balthasar, Lewis, and the pantheists themselves. I'm sorry you're not clear on it, as your definition indicates, but if you make statements like "Draw a circle on a piece of paper. Label that circle God. God is the entire universe. He is All.", then you can expect that to be interpreted as pantheism.

The Judeo-Christian teaching is that God is transcendant. This means He is separate from His creation. He created all things, but remains distinct from them, wholly other (the literal meaning of "Holy"). No created thing, from the greatest seraph to the smallest dust mote, is a "little bit" of God.

Yet His is also immanent. He is "right here" throughout all creation, and there is nowhere He is not. I once read a phrase that put it beautifully: "He is closer than your next breath." Though He is separate from His creation, He loves it and is intimately involved with it - it just remains separate from Him.

Keeping these two concepts in balance is difficult. It is simpler for our minds to focus on one or the other. To focus primarily on God's transcendence will lead you to Deism - the "Watchmaker God" who sets up a universe and then steps back and dispassionately watches it run, not caring to intervene. Focus too much on immanence and you risk confusing creature and Creator, and end up with Pantheism.

Fortunately, Jesus Christ made it simpler for us. God Himself took on flesh and walked among us, a touchable expression of immanence. He suffered death at our hands and then walked out of the tomb, vindicated in His innocence. He ascended back to His Father's throne, taking our human nature with Him. To keep immanence in balance with transcendence, look to Jesus.

Now: I don't know about others reading this forum, but this whole "nobody knows nuthin' but Wallis" schtick is getting a little thin. Wallis, you seem to be under the impression that any time someone says something you don't like, the problem lies with them. They don't know how to "read and think", or don't do research, or have psychological filters, or are narrow minded, or simply don't know enough to even discuss matters with you. You don't seem to be considering another alternative: people are understanding you just fine - they just don't agree with you. Your arguments and support aren't consistent, or are simply not orthodox Christianity.

I say this realizing that you'll probably once again trot out your college professorship and 35 years as a credentialed theologian, and they won't impress me any more than they did the last time. They don't seem to impress you, either, at least when they're not yours - I notice that when Parthian King (who didn't seem to lack theological credentials) answered you in close detail, you swiftly moved on to easier targets. Some of the most bigoted and narrow-minded people I've known have been university theology professors. On the other hand, one of the wisest, most insightful theologians I've known was a plumber by trade.

I've read back over the postings by people other than me, and I see insightful questions by people who seemed to have a clear understanding of Christian orthodoxy (what else did you expect on a Lewis forum?) and Scripture. They seemed to grasp your arguments quite clearly and understand their implications better than you do. They have treated you with courtesy and charity, and you have answered with condescension ("Is mine the only hand raised?", "you missed my point entirely") and contempt ("people believe what they want to believe","People will quote the Bible until the cows come home, and yet they have no idea what they are quoting"). These are your brothers and sisters, and they probably know a lot more Scripture and theology than you give them credit for.

You seem to take greatest offense at people whom you perceive set themselves up as arbitrary experts, issue dogmatic statements, and have filters through which they put everything they read. Yet the great Thomas á Kempis observed in Imitation of Christ that usually the things that bother us most about others are our own faults. Perhaps you and I both need to go off and prayerfully ponder á Kempis' point.
 
This discussion is only loosely connected to the character of Tash itself, and has produced a number of tangents that have more to do with biblical theology and (even more removed from the original theme) systematic theology. This is practically inevitable given the nature of Lewis’ writings, but the observation itself should help to clarify things.

As with any discussion/debate, it is helpful to lay some terms of engagement down, or perhaps a better way to put it is to speak of academic protocol. Recognizing and observing these will keep us on task.

Wallis said:
As a college professor, I am no longer appalled and disappointed with the lack of ability in my students. They are a product of the school system, after all. People cannot read and comprehend; they cannot listen and understand; and, above all, they lack the ability to think for themselves.

I am disappointed that in this forum and others that posters refuse--repeat--refuse to do any research before writing their posts. So many people engage their fingers before they engage their brains.

Respectfully, the above represents an egregious breach of such protocol. First, its tone is chokingly condescending. Second, it is sweepingly general. Finally, and perhaps worst of all, it appeals to strength of pedigree rather than the merits of its own statements (which follow).

I will begin with the last. Granting you, Wallis, the full benefit of the doubt as to your credentials, they have absolutely nothing to do with the discussion. Nothing at all. For starters, great theologians with very impressive credentials have disagreed with each other for years. How have they debated (either in person or through their publications)? By quoting their diplomas and resumes to each other? No, by sustained critical discussion. That leads me to the second point: I have never heard any professor I have ever had at any level of higher education ever counter anything anyone has ever said with the statement “I have been an academic in my field for (say) 35 years,” or “I am a college professor.” They defend their position on the basis of the merits of their argument, or they are not worth their salt. Just an observation.

Next issue: I have seen some pretty frustrated professors. But I have never heard the demeaning description of students that you have laid down, even from the hardest unbelievers I have ever sat under. Wow. Nothing further need be said.

Lastly, I would like to address the implication that somehow you are the professor here, and we are all errant students, still chewing on our erasers or throwing spitballs while you tap your feet in frustration. I will say directly what I stated indirectly earlier: You cannot both an arbiter and a player be. You stand on the turf with the rest of us, and operating blind (i.e., without the benefit of hearing our credentials), a bit of humility towards the supposed lack of research that you accuse your peers of in this forum would be a handy show wisdom as well as Christian virtue. I find no need to elaborate further on what Prince has already stated.

Now, for some things that cannot ignore comment:

Wallis said:
There is no black and white in the GOSPEL

I do wish you would qualify this, although I cannot know that even under the most elaborate qualification it could still stand as a statement. I am all for the discontinuity position in the Law and Gospel debate (which you seem to take), and I have no desire to put my neck under the yoke that Peter refers to in Acts 15. But to say there is "no black and white in the gospel"? Paul, the champion of grace for all, fought long and hard against the apparently antinomian position that your statement could at very least be construed as being.

Wallis said:
The fact that Lewis believed in a devil is just one point of view when discussing his works. He may, in fact, have had that central in his mind when he wrote of the existence of Tash. Yet, that does not negate any discussion that Tash exists in many forms within the human mind and existence.

The fact that Lewis believed in the devil is hardly “just one point of view when discussing his works.” Here is the slippery slope of the reader-response approach: Everything is "open to interpretation." Yet think well: If one can even cast the slightest shadow of doubt (= "may..have had that..in his mind") on the fact that Lewis believed in the devil (when in his introduction to the Screwtape Letters he says point blank that he does, and expresses fear for those who don’t), then one can cast doubt upon interpreting anything at all. That is, I can read the Declaration of Independence and interpret it as a recipe for minestrone.

If I might digress for a moment, I would like to observe that Lewis, graduating first in his class with a degree in philosophy from Oxford, and a professor for his entire life in the finest universities in the world, believed unabashedly in angels, demons, Satan, heaven, and hell—all quite literally. These realities are the essence of this discussion, and I believe we can all have a pretty good idea of where he would stand. Would he, Oxford don and scholar, also be accused of not doing any research before he "engaged his fingers"?

Beyond this, you do something that appears repeatedly in your recent posts: You allegorize Lewis’ allegory. I believe Lewis would roundly reject this tactic. His work is already an allegory of spiritual truths he draws from his orthodox Christian tradition and directly from Scripture. To turn Tash into anything negative that we want him to be is to greatly distort Lewis’ intent. I am hardly stripping you of your right (though I do dislike how we swing that word around these days) to believe and express what you will, I am simply saying it is out of line to take Tash, a figure to which is ascribed quite specific significance within Lewis’ schema, and make it you own. Just say it if you want to, but don’t twist Lewis. In fact, it would be more acceptable to use the term “devil” for what you are doing (given its broad popular use) than “Tash.”

Wallis said:
I will reiterate what I wrote before: I am Satan, and I am Tash. As long as I wear this Earthly flesh and possess a human nature, my very being and core is Anti-Christ. Therefore, living with and in the Christ, I struggle every nanosecond of the day to cast out the Satan/Tash that desires ascendancy and show the Love and Light of the Christ around me.

Prince of the West addressed the issue of pantheism quite adequately, so I’ll deal with this one: There is no Scripture that sustains the drastic ontological equivalency you are posting here. John in his first epistle warns his spiritual children to test and reject the spirit of anti-Christ as something foreign. Nowhere does he (or anyone else) say that it lives within us continually, much less consist of our inner being and our inner being of it. Yes, Paul reflects on the struggle he has with his flesh (sinful nature) in Romans 7, but in Galatians 2 he declares that he is “crucified with Christ”—yet alive, but it is not he, but rather Christ that lives within him. Similarly, Jesus declares that we are not of this world any more than He is of it (John 17:16). Remember, Jesus had a human nature, too, and died on a cross to impart that new nature to us. We are in process, but through him we are "born from above" (John 3:3), and are no longer under the dominion of the old nature (Romans 6). Usually people try and go soft on human nature and deny our sinfulness and lostness without Christ—a great error. But yours is an equally great error, Wallis, and cannot be sustained except by the most liberal reader-response method of interpretation.
 
Last edited:
That some people here take my tone as condescending, the problem lies with them. If they hear me speak and see my face, they would quickly understand that I am not being condescending in any way, shape, or form.

I repeatedly stated that what people wish to believe is certainly okay with me. I present other views that people may accept, reject, or what have you.

You see, when I mentioned that I am a college professor, it was completely taken out of context. It was meant that I have personal experience with students inability to read. Obviously, the lesson is emphasized in this thread.

And Parthian King, your "accusation" that I have not addressed all the issues raised by fellow posters must fall along the lines of falling asleep while reading the longer posts.

I am not here to impress anyone. I rarely rise to the occassion to impress myself. That is one Tash I am not going to serve.
 
While the Prince will adamantly stick to his particular definition of pantheism, I will stick to the dictionary.

Now the question of God in the circle.

To say that God is outside His creation is true if one views that there are many universes and many creations. Yet, each creation is a part of God and God is definitely within His creation. This concept does not nullify God in the least. That God acts through us and within us does not necessarily make him nebulous. The complete surrender to God allows God to completely use us for His Will.

Many people are comfortable with a concept that Marty Marty expounds on in his book Your God Is Too Small. We tend to create an image of what God is, and we are comfortable with that image. If God is merely an actor, for example, in a far away place who has to be coerced through prayer to act, that may be a very comfortable way of viewing God. It is not a view I share, by the way. I tend to see God acting around me and through me. I do not necessarily feel God acting through me, unless I turn around and view my past, where I can see God working His Will. At the same time, I fail most of the time seeing God acting around me. But again, if I turn around and look at my past, I can see how God is acting around me through all the people I interacted with.

We also read what other people wrote about their own experiences. We are left to believe them 100% literally or, most often, understand them in the same context as we might express things. My dog didn't talk English to me, for example, but she did express her feelings, which I, in the vernacular, describe as speaking to me.

When we examine scripture, we do have to get into the heads of the people who wrote these words down. We have to understand what they were thinking before we can apply a lesson to our own times. Just look at the Pauline letters: if we did not dissect them to understand why they were written, when they were written, and in which chronological order they were written, we might be led to believe that none of us should have sex, get married, and have children, for those who are virgin will be blessed higher in heaven than those who have experienced carnal knowledge. When it became obvious that the Christ was not returning withing Paul's lifetime, he had to reverse himself about marriage. Otherwise, the new church was going to be very short-lived.
 
There is no "black and white" in the GOSPEL.

In the LAW, there is definitely a "black and white." You are either perfect or a sinner. There is no in-between. Since the LAW shows that we are all sinners, we all fall on the "black" side of the LAW.

But in the GOSPEL, it is not just a matter of Loving Christ and emulating Christ versus loving oneself and emulating all things associated with sin and human nature.

The GOSPEL, which demands unconditional love for both God and our fellow man, we are going to err. We cannot help but err. This does not mean that we are not trying to follow the GOSPEL.

We have to love unconditionally the murderer, the rapist, the dregs of society. We have to unconditionally love them even as we perform capital punishment under society's law. We have to unconditionally forgive them even as we incarcerate such sociopaths. We have to unconditionally love our enemies, even as we must kill them before they kill us in battle.

In the GOSPEL, there are no distinctions made between people who are righteous and who are not. Only God knows what is in a person's heart, and we must leave the final judgment up to God while we unconditionally love all people.

I unconditionally love all of you, even though I have been painted with many brushes, most of which are false.

Sorry, folks, but I also unconditionally forgive all of you who would think ill of me. For you see, that is what the GOSPEL really is. The "Old Adam" in me would want to lash out, rip and tear, burn and trash. The "New Adam" that I try to live up to merely shrugs his shoulders and says: "Believe what you will."

So, I'm out of here. I will not lead others to anger and ill feelings.
 
I am relieved that after hearing that I am too irresponsible to do research, don't connect my brain before I write, and fall asleep while reading other posts (indeed, I am hardly able to read at all), that no ill-will is intended. Apparently the reader-response method that Wallis uses is expected of everyone else when his words are read, with a predetermined outcome of entirely positive vibes prescribed no matter what he says. If we read otherwise, the problem lies with us. I will leave it up to the others who are reading this post to read his most recent (first) reply to determine whether any tone of condescension is present.

A few closing comments:

I am not sure what "accusation" of mine you are referring to; perhaps you were thinking of Prince of the West's response to you. The closest I come to such a statement is to point out that one cannot use credentials to browbeat one's (supposedly) less well-endowed listeners--a tactic that can be used with or without a response. And the point of my bringing the matter up had nothing to do with context, but the fact that you did it at all in an anonymous forum where people go by whimsical names so as to create some sense of parity.

The issue of allegorizing the allegory was ignored, and the error repeated.

For the sake of some who might read this, I might note that a review of what I stated earlier about the historical critical method would be wisely applied to Wallis' final statement. What he says is (generally) true: We need to do research and place ourselves as much as possible within the "setting in life" (German Sitz im Leben) of Paul and other biblical writers to better understand them. Yet there are two implicit errors here in his statement, and they should be pointed out: 1) The idea that everyone needs a Ph.D. in biblical criticism to understand the Bible is simply not true. You will miss some things, but the Scriptures will still make you "wise unto salvation" (2 Timothy 3:15). 2) Regarding the example Wallis used, the issue of "progressive development" within Paul's theology in general, and in relation to his eschatology in particular, is hotly debated, and not just a few Pauline scholars (even those who lean heavily on the very method and means Wallis constantly chides us all that we use before cracking the Book) roundly reject on purely exegetical grounds his conclusion that Paul "reversed himself." In other words, a careful reading of the text in its original tongue brought them to the conclusion that such a position is untenable. To be sure, others take the position that Wallis does, but it is hardly the only position to be had; very learned men and women in the Academy on both sides of the Atlantic firmly oppose it, and sustain what they say with cogent argument. The point of this observation (responding to concrete example with concrete example) is to illustrate that this method should not be used as if the conclusion drawn by its user is forgone (indeed, it cannot be so used in the scholarly community unless one desires to end up as academic swiss cheese).

There are other issues that could be addressed. Many have been raised that only tangentially have anything to do with Tash, the original theme of this thread. I, personally, have felt it necessary at some points to address these tangents (and it seems others have, too) because they have a direct bearing on how we come to our conclusions about the devil. I will leave those other issues alone, but I will reiterate (and this certanly has been of value): C.S. Lewis, a brilliant scholar and one-time materialist (i.e., not that he was greedy for material things, but he philosophically held that all reality was fundamentally material and not spiritual) and atheist, came to the conclusion that the devil and his minions were real, independent entities. This belief was merely a corollary of his faith in Christ, that is, it was hardly his central focus (see his warning in Screwtape about taking excessive interest in devils) but it was significant insofar as he perceived it in Scripture. It appears that while his representation of the devil takes a personal and almost idiosyncratic form in Screwtape, Lewis addresses broader, ultimate questions with the figure of Tash, issues having to do with the finality of every person and indeed of the creation itself.
 
Last edited:
Wallis said:
There is no "black and white" in the GOSPEL.

There is absolutely and unequivocally black and white with the Gospels. I realize you have stated the difference between the Law and the Gospels, and that, with the Law, a man is either a sinner or he is "perfect." Clearly we know that no man is perfect or can ever hope to achieve perfection at any degree. I will continue on this particular subject in a moment. As for the "black and white" in the Gospels, one particular statement that Jesus made comes directly into my mind, and that is, You are either for Me or against Me. Such statements as this are key to defining a structuring of black and white in the Gospels, as well as within the entire context of the New Testament. With God there is no grey area, but certainty on every level, and with making decisions one cannot stand on a middle ground.

Wallis said:
In the LAW, there is definitely a "black and white." You are either perfect or a sinner. There is no in-between. Since the LAW shows that we are all sinners, we all fall on the "black" side of the LAW.

But in the GOSPEL, it is not just a matter of Loving Christ and emulating Christ versus loving oneself and emulating all things associated with sin and human nature.

The GOSPEL, which demands unconditional love for both God and our fellow man, we are going to err. We cannot help but err. This does not mean that we are not trying to follow the GOSPEL.

Correct. We will err, being fallible men, but we at the very least ought to strive for excellence, seeking to be in the center of God's will, doing our Father's business as we ought. Furthermore, we pray to Him and lay ourselves out upon Him (much in the way Peter wrote - casting our cares upon Him, for He cares for us; literally, roll your way out upon Him, I Pet 5:7). Yes, the Law was black and white, but, just as Paul said in writing to the church in Galatia, Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. The law served its purpose: to be a schoolmaster, to bring us to Christ. Christ is the Bridge, filling the gap between God and man through His immaculate fulfilment of the Law. To say that the Gospels and (perhaps if this is what you imply) the New Testament are not black and white is to err without appropriately observing the contents of the New Testament and the statements of the God of Heaven and Earth, Jesus Christ. (E.g.) Let your yes be yes and your no be no (Jas 5:12).

Wallis said:
In the GOSPEL, there are no distinctions made between people who are righteous and who are not. Only God knows what is in a person's heart, and we must leave the final judgment up to God while we unconditionally love all people.

While it is true God knows what is in a person's heart, the fruits that emanate from a person are quite obvious to the eye of the beholder. And the Gospels are a plenary example of defining those who are righteous and those who are not. Did not Jesus say to His disciples that unless their righteousness exceed the righteousness of the scribes and pharisees, that they would not enter into the Kingdom of Heaven (cf. Mt 5:20)? Clearly we understand (as I have already mentioned) that none is perfect, and none can ever achieve perfection. But here Christ defines those who are righteous and those are not. And He is the Bridge, the One who makes us righteous in the sight of the Father. It is by, in, through, and upon Him alone, in every aspect.

Wallis said:
I unconditionally love all of you, even though I have been painted with many brushes, most of which are false.

Sorry, folks, but I also unconditionally forgive all of you who would think ill of me. For you see, that is what the GOSPEL really is. The "Old Adam" in me would want to lash out, rip and tear, burn and trash. The "New Adam" that I try to live up to merely shrugs his shoulders and says: "Believe what you will."

I am grateful for your unconditional love. Such is an example of black and white in the Gospel, my friend. And in mentioning "psychobabble" in a previous post, it was not my intent to place a personal affront on you, but merely to state my opinion that, in your attempts at dismissing my argument concerning the differences between those who suffer from mental ailments and those who are truly possessed, you fall in the line of worldly psychologists and theorists. I state again that I did not intend to derail you personally.

As far as an "Old" and "New" Adam, I think none of us falls into that category. We are new creations in Christ, who is described as the "New Adam" - the God-Man who, acting as a Man, did not commit any sin or err as such, and thus fulfilled the Law. He is our Absolute Guarantee. There are no other alternatives to Christ.

Yes, others have clearly pointed out that this thread is entirely about Tash as an allegory, a subject, a discussion. My apologies for deviating so from the topic, but there were some issues raised that I was desirous to address. And now that I have addressed them, I bow out graciously from this thread. Blessings to you all.
 
Well said in many ways, Curumo. And there's no need to apologize for replying to matters you did not raise, but your faith constrains you to address. Lewis would be proud.
 
Nobody has to apologize for tangents in these threads, that's what makes the discussion fun. If we all just stated what we thought about Tash, then the Thread would end when each of us had a go, and that would be that. I enjoy hearing what everyone thinks on the different subjects, with Lewis' writing as a starting point. I enjoy hearing what Wallis says, even if I don't really agree with all of it.

What I don't like is anybody being mean to somebody else for what they believe, or implying that they don't have the brain power to understand what's been presented. I think most everyone who posted on here has a lot of brain cells directed toward the discussion, so to say, "Oh well you can't understand my point cuz you can't read and won't think" is condescending, no matter what good humor was intended.

Now:

• I think we cannot convince Wallis that his God/circle analogy is not believeable to us based on Scripture, because he doesn't regard Scripture with the authority that we see in it. But Wallis, if you cannot take Scripture as your basis for the God/circle analogy, what is your basis? Where did you get this idea, which is not in Scripture. Scripture says God is the source, and that He is always present, but it does not say that He is everything -- it says He created everything.

• As for the Gospel having no black and white, surely there is a point where someone is following Christ or not following Christ, a pretty clear dividing line? I agree that we cannot judge another's state of heart, but God can: and for Him I think there is a clear distinction between who is seeking after Him and who is living for Tash ...
 
Back
Top