Tash

inkspot said:
• I think we cannot convince Wallis that his God/circle analogy is not believeable to us based on Scripture, because he doesn't regard Scripture with the authority that we see in it.
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I was going to stay out of this thread but I can't help it. Inkspot, you may be right, but I have been quoting scripture "until the cows come home" and I am leaving it up to God now because He said:

Isaiah 55:10-11
10 As the rain and the snow
come down from heaven,
and do not return to it
without watering the earth
and making it bud and flourish,
so that it yields seed for the sower and bread for the eater,
11 so is my word that goes out from my mouth:
It will not return to me empty,
but will accomplish what I desire
and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.

Amen! God's Holy Word is a solid foundation, not a filter to the views of the world!
 
Ditto! Would that we would all quote (as well as read, preach, meditate upon, etc.) Scripture not only until the cows come home, but until Jesus comes and we enter eternity crying "farther up and further in!" What else is there?
 
Parthian King said:
Ditto! Would that we would all quote (as well as read, preach, meditate upon, etc.) Scripture not only until the cows come home, but until Jesus comes and we enter eternity crying "farther up and further in!" What else is there?
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That's what I think, too, but I was wondering where Wallis was getting his idea of that whole God/circle thing ... C'mon Wallis, don't go away mad ... :)
 
Our God is a consuming fire, or as Lewis would say, Aslan is not a tame lion. That means God is awesome, terrible, wonderful, precious, merciful, holy, wrathful, powerful, and gentle, (and a bunch of other things) all at the same time. His word is not to be toyed with, and by its own description it cuts and divides by sifting motives and attitudes. It is not simply a point of departure for what we would say. We should handle it with fear and trembling for the Author that begot us, for how we handle it speaks volumes about where we are. Aslan sees through us. Who can stand before Him in the day of His coming? And what good are our ideas anyway? The issue never really is "what we think." The issue is a striving to responsibly submit to His word. His words about the enemy of our souls are critical for our well-being, so naturally that enemy wants to muddle the issue. It would be more surprising if there were no controversy at all. Remember Shift and all the confusion he brought to the issue...
 
inkspot said:
That's what I think, too, but I was wondering where Wallis was getting his idea of that whole God/circle thing ... C'mon Wallis, don't go away mad ... :)
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This sounds rather interesting. I'd definately want to know more about it so I can understand people better. I've considered similar theories, but I have always come back to what I believe now.
 
Parthian King said:
His word is not to be toyed with, and by its own description it cuts and divides by sifting motives and attitudes. It is not simply a point of departure for what we would say. We should handle it with fear and trembling for the Author that begot us, for how we handle it speaks volumes about where we are.
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This is also how I feel, that everything we need for godly living can be found in the Word, and that the answers to all life's questions are there ... but if you are a believer who sees the Bible merely as a guideline, with lots that is simply untrue, then quoting a Scripture at you that says the Word will never pass away or something means nothing to you, because you don't think the Bible is that big a deal. I am trying to understand how a person like that has any foundation for his Christianity at all? But I guess Wallis has gone away and won't explain it ... :(
 
Although he does not say so, he certainly seems to indicate that he is a Christ follower, though his beliefs don't seem to follow Christian orthodoxy on a number of points. I say this as pure observation piecing together what has been said in this forum. Unless some qualifying explanation came forward, I would fear holding his views myself. The stakes are too high...
 
He definitely is a Christ follower. He is just one of those who doesn't take the Bible as the literal truth in all circumstances. But as far as salvation through Christ, I am certain this is what he believes in.
 
This discussion has been quite fascinating; and I'm sorry I was unable to come back to it until now. I see Wallis has not returned, nor do I expect him to. I'm glad to read such good answers to him as well. I would dispute them differently than everyone here did, but that's to be expected.

To get back somewhat on the topic of this thread; and also to stay in line somewhat with the discussion we've had--Wallis argued that we all have a bit of Tash in us. He denied the existence of a devil outside of that. I disagree--I believe there is a real devil, plus legions of his angels.

However, I do agree that the devil, or Tash as Lewis puts it, can tempt us, and lurks within each of us. Do others think the same--that we all have our tendancies to follow Tash, as it were? And if so... how can we over come those tendancies? For, I think that we must--we must strive for as much perfection and cleansing in this life as we can, and where we fail, Christ will pick up the slack. But we cannot expect Him to do everything--we must do our part.
 
Is everything in the Chronicles, as in all 7 books, theologically correct? Are we supposed to see them all as having a Biblical interepretation?

I am asking this because, if the first book LWW was about the liberation of Narnia like our own salvation (when we accepted Christ), is Tash is to be interepreted as the things that tempt us when we are already saved ...the day to day things that find us struggling as we continue the walk, what Paul talked about in Romans 7, and what John wrote as the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes and the pride of life?

Please fogive me if this is confusing. I thought the stories had a bit of Christian symbolism in them, but I just want to know if Lewis intended all of it as a theological presentation.
 
Vanceone said:
But we cannot expect Him to do everything--we must do our part
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I think we must let Him do everything -- when we try to do our part is when we mess up. In Galatians 3:2-10, Paul says:

Let me put this question to you: How did your new life begin? Was it by working your heads off to please God? Or was it by responding to God's Message to you? Are you going to continue this craziness? For only crazy people would think they could complete by their own efforts what was begun by God. If you weren't smart enough or strong enough to begin it, how do you suppose you could perfect it? Did you go through this whole painful learning process for nothing? It is not yet a total loss, but it certainly will be if you keep this up!

Answer this question: Does the God who lavishly provides you with his own presence, his Holy Spirit, working things in your lives you could never do for yourselves, does he do these things because of your strenuous moral striving or because you trust him to do them in you? Don't these things happen among you just as they happened with Abraham? He believed God, and that act of belief was turned into a life that was right with God.

Is it not obvious to you that persons who put their trust in Christ (not persons who put their trust in the law!) are like Abraham: children of faith? It was all laid out beforehand in Scripture that God would set things right with non-Jews by faith. Scripture anticipated this in the promise to Abraham: "All nations will be blessed in you."

So those now who live by faith are blessed along with Abraham, who lived by faith--this is no new doctrine! And that means that anyone who tries to live by his own effort, independent of God, is doomed to failure.
(The Message Bible)

Our human striving is doomed to failure -- only Christ's Spirit in us can bring us to perfection.

Nenya said:
I thought the stories had a bit of Christian symbolism in them, but I just want to know if Lewis intended all of it as a theological presentation.
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I think your first assumption is right, these are stories with Scriptural themes, not to be taken as a theology lesson for children. I don't think CSL ever intended them as such.
 
I'd agree with that given your starting premises, Inkspot, but be aware that you're touching on the border of something that is literally a Mystery (to use the precise theological term): the resolution of Free Will and God's Sovereignty. It's true to say that only God working through us can do true Good - but we have to cooperate, do we not? Otherwise, why the repeated encouragements by the Apostles for us to strive to do good? It is a mystical intertwining, as expressed in Ephesians:

"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God -- not because of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."
2:8-10

We were created to do good works, which God prepared beforehand - but even then it is Him working through us - yet the very desire is a gift from God - yet even our feeble efforts are pleasing to Him - yet never enough to earn justification...

It all gets very intricate.
​
 
I agree. Lewis weaves Scriptural truths into his works, but to push things to far is, well, to push things too far.

On that note, and watching the paramenters well, I would like to answer a comment made by Vanceone, and about which he asked for reply:

Vanceone said:
However, I do agree that the devil, or Tash as Lewis puts it, can tempt us, and lurks within each of us.
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First, continuing this thread along the lines it held before, I would strongly agree that Tash is the Devil according to Lewis' allegory, or the closest he wishes to get to it. There is no doubt that Lewis believes in the Devil as an independent, intelligent and willful being, once good, but fallen and rebellious. Perhaps his best description of him is not (as most would think) in the Screwtape Letters, but rather in the possessed Weston of Perelandra.

That said, I cannot subscribe to the idea that we all have this being "lurking within us" (to quote you precisely, Vanceone, not to make light of your words). I truly understand this perspective, given human behavior. But it is on this point that I may be inclined to agree with Wallis, if such was his intention: Some (not to say you) may take this to adopt a "Devil made me do it" attitude, and thus exculpate themselves from responsibility for their actions. We are not granted that luxury. We are fallen, willful creatures, and fully capable of sin on our own. That the Devil constantly works to facilitate this activity by drawing us into more sin (as you note correctly) does not negate this simple truth. It is our sinful nature (or "flesh," as Paul and others put it) that "lurks within" (see Romans 6 and Galatians 5 especially for this). The other problem with adopting this view of the Devil is that some may feel that their situation is hopeless. If I have the Devil within me, even as a Christian, what hope have I versus sin? Again, Romans 6 addresses this reality as well: Christ's crucifixion put to death the sinful nature in us, and though it is a lifelong struggle to mortify the flesh, the work is done and the reality will be fully consummated at the Second Coming.

Of course, the real kicker is that nowhere in the Scriptures is there anything that indicates the Devil himself lives within any human being continually. Yes, Satan "entered into" Judas the night of Jesus' betrayal, and there are multiple instances of demonization in the Scriptures. But the term "possession" is not even Scriptural (oddly, the terminology is usually reversed: The person "has" the spirit, not the other way around), though we often use it (as I did in referring to Weston). Judas' remorse was certainly not inspired by the Enemy, who had used him for his purposes, and moved on. We have to conclude that the Devil is not an equal and opposite of the Holy Spirit: he cannot be in all places at once, he is limited. That which we see in ourselves and others is the sinful nature. Of course, when it comes to our actions, one may very well argue that we might as well have the Devil with us, given how we act sometimes, but the distinction is important for the reasons I have named.
 
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Thanks for the comments. First off, let me say I agree with Parthian King here: You should not say "the devil made me do it." No, God has granted us free will. We are enticed by both sides, as it were--both Satan and God influence us--but neither will force us. God will not let Satan tempt us beyond what we can withstand. Neither will God force us to heaven.

Sure, I believe that Satan can possess us--if we let him in. Sometimes he wants to come in, and we have to be vigilant, but we can always resist him. It's our choice. And I believe we can evict Satan as well. We may have to do it repeatedly, but we can always do it. Ultimately, however, we must rely on Christ to completely master Satan and our own flesh. For it is only through Christ that we can serve him completly. Thus, we do have Satan within us... but Christ is also influencing us, too. WE must decide whose influence is greater--and that is each humans own choice.

I also agree that our own fallen natures cause us to sin, as well--no one can blame the devil for everything. Indeed, no one can blame the devil at all--for while he may persuade, it is us who decides to follow.

Now, to the other discussion--faith versus works. That is a historically charged discussion within Christianity. I think that the answer is that both are required for salvation. You cannot get to heaven by doing works alone--no matter how many times I'm baptized, it means nothing if I have no faith. I'm just getting wet. You must believe. On the other side, as James says--faith without works is dead, being alone. The devil believes and trembles, too.

You must have faith--and works. Fortunately, if you really have faith, I think the works come. If you are converted to Christ, being charitible is more natural. You are meeker, humbler, etc. Faith and works go hand in hand, and you must have both. They reinforce one another, and strengthen each other. I would say that you cannot have faith without works--because otherwise it's just an opinion. Works show your faith.

I do hope that I'm not crossing some line here, but I just wanted to set forth my beliefs. :)
 
The best analogy I've heard here is the smoke-and-fire one. If we consider faith to be the fire, and good works to be the smoke - well, as St. Paul makes clear, you can pump all the smoke into a room you'd like, but nothing is going to get "cooked". Our good works cannot save us. Yet, as St. James points out, fires always produce smoke. If there's no smoke, there's no fire. We may have something, perhaps even the same knowledge the demons do, but if there's no "smoke" of good work, there's no "fire" of faith.
 
Vanceone said:
Fortunately, if you really have faith, I think the works come. If you are converted to Christ, being charitible is more natural. You are meeker, humbler, etc. Faith and works go hand in hand
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PoTW said:
If we consider faith to be the fire, and good works to be the smoke - well, as St. Paul makes clear, you can pump all the smoke into a room you'd like, but nothing is going to get "cooked". Our good works cannot save us. Yet, as St. James points out, fires always produce smoke.
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These are both valid points and exactly what I believe. When Christ enters you as Savior, then you will begin to flow with His Spirit, and good works are the natural by-product. I especially like the smoke/fire analogy because the fire doesn't have to strive to smoke -- no one says to it, "C'mon, get ahold of yourself and start smoking, if you're a real fire, let's see some smoke!" That would be silly. The fire will smoke because it is a fire. Likewise its crazy (Galatians 3) for us to condemn ourselves or others for a lack of works -- because now there is no condemnation, Romans 8:1 -- and because the good works flow out of us as Christ enables us, not from our own human effort.

Don't put yourself on a trip about what a poor Christian you are, or how you're not a Christian, if you haven't done a bunch of good works today. God is bulding up that fire in you little bit by little bit, and as you follow him, it will blaze hotter and hotter. In the meantime, relax. It's all HIS doing. They that wait upon the Lord will renew their strength, Isaiah 40:31.
 
The Prince and Inkspot have addressed the issue of faith v. works, and I'll leave that alone.

As for the issue of Satan "within" us, I feel that in describing the dynamics of temptation and responsibility, we are on the same page. Perhaps the use of prepositions is an issue of semantics, but I have been burned too many times departing from precise biblical language on these matters. I think to say "Satan is within us"--even to some extent--is a very strong statement. Satan is not the same as "sin" (in fact, sin is stronger, since it binds even him). That's what I was attempting to get at: I cannot find a biblical basis for accepting that Satan (even a "little bit" of him, whatever that might mean) is "within us." That we still have within us a root of the sinful nature that will take a lifetime to work out, and that this nature within us has a penchant for yielding to the designs of the Enemy, well, yes, that I buy. But to say that this particular being, a fallen angel that actually exists in a particular place (since he is not omnipresent like the Holy Spirit), or even one or several of his lesser minions live within us--that I cannot accept because I don't see it sustained by Scripture.

On the other hand, I agree that the door can be opened that some of these named lesser minions may "live" within and thereby oppress humans. I have dealt with some who have "had" such a spirit (and sometimes "spirits"), and seen them set free by the love and power of Christ. Almost without exception, some event and/or pattern of behavior is what allowed the Enemy to come in. But those cases are special ones, and mentioned in Scripture, and not common to all people.
 
There is an interesting book called "I Give You Authority" by Charles Kraft on this subject. He is a professor at Fuller Theological Seminary, but has a background in sociology, and he lived and worked in South America where he became convinced (he was already a believer but did not "believe" in demons) that demons can oppress humans, and that even Christians attract demonic attack. (Not physical attack like a scary movie, but spiritual attacks that can derail your plans and attempt to spoil your walk with God, relationships with others, etc.)

It is not wacky at all when you read the book, because he has a real solid (I think) scriptural foundation for what he says. And he doesn't say that demons possess anyone, but rather that demons only get their way on earth when humans cooperate with them. It is very interesting. And, helpful, I thought.
 
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