The witch as Satan

lilith as snake, serpent, demon

Lewis clearly identifies the witch with Lilith and knew the tradition and follkore.

Below is a link to the Jewish conception of Lilith.

http://www.geocities.com/Wellesley/Garden/4240/zohar.html
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The Christian Tradition 1):
from
http://witcombe.sbc.edu/eve-women/7evelilith.html

Despite the fact that she is not officially recognized in the Christian tradition, in the Late Middle Ages she is occasionally identified with the serpent in Genesis 3 and shown accordingly with a woman's head and torso. For example, the bare-breasted woman with a snake's lower parts posed seductively in the branches of the tree between Adam and Eve in the scene of the temptation carved into the base of the trumeau in the left doorway of the West façade of the Cathedral of Notre Dame in Paris has been identified as Lilith
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The Chirstian Lilith 2)
from
http://www.lilitu.com/lilith/khephprint.html#folk

Perhaps the most famous version of this Christian Lilith is the Sistine Chapel paintings by Michealangelo. In this She is shown as a half-woman half-snake and is credited with being the very Serpent who instigated the Fall from Eden itself. Apparently, Lilith was not satisfied with her vows of revenge as they were, and decided to attack Adam where he least expected it— through his new wife, Eve. Perhaps even an amount of jealousy is involved here.

Of course, it was Satan who was said to have been the serpent in the Christian viewpoint. And, indeed, Lilith is said to be the wife of Satan (or, from the Hebrew angle, the wife of Samael). The Serpent was a joint effort between these two to take revenge upon Adam and cause them to Fall from grace. Lilith provided the body of the serpent, while Samael was the voice. As the wife of Samael (rather than Asmodeus), she is known as the Elder Lilith.

I have all ideas that this Serpent-Lilith was a result of the Rabbinical view of Lilith—She who seduces men from the True Path of God, thus causing them to fall from grace as Adam did.
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The above is just a sampling of the tradition Lewis was familar with. Lewis didn't need a hammer to hit the nail. It wouldn't be art otherwise. He made the reference he needed to make declaring Jadis the daughter (incarnation) of Lilith. Anything more literal from Lewis would be overkill. Many artists wouldn't have felt even that reference was necessary to those familar with the tradition.

The reason the Lion, With, and Wardrobe is among the most popular in the series is that the allegory is the cleanest. Looking for a pefect consistency through all the books will lead you were others have been. Lewis loses some focus over the course of the entire tale.
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More
http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/~humm/Topics/Lilith/aNePics.html
 
Welcome

Welcome, Theodicy! I never saw you post before. I don't have time to chase the links right now, but I plan to!

Thanks for the great information ... response later. :D
 
Welcome to the site Theodicy! Remember to introduce yourself in the Introduction thread, under Tea with Tumnus, if you like! :)
 
Great stuff, Theodicy! Thanks. I agree that for many in Lewis' day the explicitness of the reference to Lilith may have been unnecessary if they were well read. For those of us who grew up in America the reference would have been necessary as explicit as it is, for the bulk of us had no such literary exposure. Your links are great information. :cool:
 
inked said:
Great stuff, Theodicy! Thanks. I agree that for many in Lewis' day the explicitness of the reference to Lilith may have been unnecessary if they were well read. For those of us who grew up in America the reference would have been necessary as explicit as it is, for the bulk of us had no such literary exposure. Your links are great information. :cool:
Yeah, what Inked said! :D
 
As far as I have always known,although it may be incorrect, before the "tribulation" begins, doesn't every man and woman with the capability to understand things, of course, get to hear about God? I have always been told this. I feel that everyone has a chance to hear God and choose. That is why it is so different in the CoN...they don't necessarily have missions and Aslan cannot easily be shared amongts a world that doesn't have much means of transportation. In Narnia, it seems that not everyone gets a chance to hear of Aslan, so Aslan takes a firm, steady dedication in your beliefs and is understanding. Maybe I'm just messed up though...
 
Reepicheep1707 said:
As far as I have always known,although it may be incorrect, before the "tribulation" begins, doesn't every man and woman with the capability to understand things, of course, get to hear about God? I have always been told this. I feel that everyone has a chance to hear God and choose. That is why it is so different in the CoN...they don't necessarily have missions and Aslan cannot easily be shared amongts a world that doesn't have much means of transportation. In Narnia, it seems that not everyone gets a chance to hear of Aslan, so Aslan takes a firm, steady dedication in your beliefs and is understanding. Maybe I'm just messed up though...

That's a reply to the pages way far back...I was just thinking about it and I'm new so I thought maybe I had better specify
 
If a person believes the the Tribulation refers to a particular time in world history, then I suppose that one can make the argument that everyone alive in the world will "know" of Christ.

However, if the Tribulation is used to mean the experiences of life, then the opposite argument could be made.

Tribulation means different things to different people. To the Jews it meant exile in Babylon. Jews talked about the Tribulation being the period before the establishment of Israel. The Holocaust could have been considered a Tribulation.

Tribulation could easily be made to our daily lives as we suffer through this life until our final reward. IN the meantime, we are surrounded by Jadis-like figures who tempt us to turn our feet from the right path.
 
I think Reep wastalking about the "Great Tribulation" that many evangelicals believe to be a literal 7-year period after Christ returns to take believers to heaven and before He returns to touch His feet on the Mount of Olives, win the battle of Armageddon and begin a 1000-year reign on earth, the end-times theory popularized by the "Left Behind" books.

Most people who preach this theory do say that everyone still alive on earth at that time will be aware of Jesus and in fact forced to choose between Christ and anti-Christ.

Although TLB reflected many of these end-times themes, it clearly is not an event-by-event allegory for this theory, if that's what you meant, Reep.
 
inkspot said:
I think Reep wastalking about the "Great Tribulation" that many evangelicals believe to be a literal 7-year period after Christ returns to take believers to heaven and before He returns to touch His feet on the Mount of Olives, win the battle of Armageddon and begin a 1000-year reign on earth, the end-times theory popularized by the "Left Behind" books.

Most people who preach this theory do say that everyone still alive on earth at that time will be aware of Jesus and in fact forced to choose between Christ and anti-Christ.

Although TLB reflected many of these end-times themes, it clearly is not an event-by-event allegory for this theory, if that's what you meant, Reep.

Yes, I was speaking of the "Great Tribulation" you hear everyone speak of, and warn you to be prepared for...And After re-reading TLB, I agree that it is not an event-by-event allegory as none of the books are completely.
 
The Great Tribulation.

I agree.

I mean, when Christ comes back to Earth, anyone who does not recognize the fact that God has come back in physical form has to be dead! :D

I think that there will still be a problem with most people, however: a stumbling block. Even as strong as my faith is, I will still probably doubt that anyone calling himself the Christ will be the true Christ.

As in the Last Battle, there were many who doubted that the Donkey dressed as Aslan was really Aslan, but when those who saw and met the real Aslan had no doubts.

How does this fit in with Jadis=Satan? I think that Lewis wove in and through his books that the anti-Christ (anti-Aslan in the books) was extremely prevalent and took on many forms. After all, "the world, the flesh, and the devil" take on a poetic meaning to describe all the things of this world to tempt us away from the Grace of God.

What looks beautiful is not always true; joy is fraught with disappointment; and our desires end up rather empty.

You all have made me think a bit here, and I like it. The Tribulation that the Narnians had to suffer before the end could be likened to what many believe will be a Tribulation for we humans. If it indeed comes, then it will be a real test of fire of our faith. It might even make us stronger for it.
 
crjr9833 said:
Well then, explain the Lady of the Green Kirtle? How do you know thats not her? Aslan supposedly killed her( maybe he sent or "damned" her to the Underworld?) In Prince Caspian that hag says that she is still living.

Evidence that it is not her is in SC, Ch 4, near the end, where one of the owls says "We think this (Lady of the Green Kirtle) may be some of the same crew."

There's nothing to say they are the same, but this reference implies that they are not.
 
There is not reason from the text to take that owlish wisdom to mean that "one of the same crew" is not the Headmistress of the crew, is there? ;)

The owl's statement does not deny possible identity as you suggest it must.
 
Edmund = Judas?

Was Edmund really supposed to represent Judas?? When Jadis comes to get Edmund from Aslan, she says something about "there is a traitor/betrayer among you". Isn't that line in the bible in reference to Jesus and Judas??
 
TolkienGoddess said:
Was Edmund really supposed to represent Judas?? When Jadis comes to get Edmund from Aslan, she says something about "there is a traitor/betrayer among you". Isn't that line in the bible in reference to Jesus and Judas??
First of all, welcome to the site, TolkienGoddess and good question.

Well, it is really important to remember C.S. Lewis wasn't creating characters to create a one-to-one correspondence with Biblical figures or Christian themes. So while there is much that Edmund did to symbolize both Judas (and mankind) he is not supposed to represent Judas. I would actually argue that he is more similar to the apostle Paul, who vehemently persecuted Christians before his encounter with Christ/Aslan and then later converted to become one of the greatest figures in the church/Narnia.

Uh, as far as the quote in the Bible, the only thing I can think of is at the Last Supper, when Jesus says to his disciples, "I tell you the truth, one of you will betray me" (Matt. 26:21, NIV). But this still doesn't mean that C.S. Lewis intended Edmund to represent Judas.
 
Charn Tim is quite correct that Edmund doesn't directly correlate to Judas, because that's not what Lewis was trying to do. I think that King Edmund comes a little closer when he states that a closer analog to Edmund is the entire race of man. There is some indication from Scripture that when Adam and Eve fell, they surrendered to the Enemy some aspect of the sovereignty which had been given them. The Enemy had a claim on them which was exercised through death. I think Lewis was using the literary device of the Deep Magic to illustrate that, and Aslan's knowledge of the Deeper Magic was able to save both Edmund and himself from death.
 
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