You know its easy to criticize movie Peter when watching the film but...

[inkspot]

You seem to ignore the fact that the plan would have worked if Caspian hadn't screwed up.

CASPIAN WAS NOT FAULTLESS!!! We have said so again and again. But REGARDLESS of ANYBODY ELSE'S actions, Peter is responsible for his own. Of course, Peter would be frustrated. But that does not give him the freedom to have a temper tantrum.

Thank you, Miss Reep!

Yes, an immature person who is not a fit leader would say, "My plan didn't work because you messed up! You are the reason for my failure."

A leader would evaluate the situation after Caspian's delay, decide whether there was any chance for success despite Caspian's mistake, and if not, choose to retreat and save as many lives as possible. If he still felt there was a possibility for success, he would go for it -- and if that failed, what he would not do is blame Caspian. He would say, "I weighed the odds and gambled we could still do it, but I was wrong. I made a mistake."

By shoving the blame on Caspian, Peter was sidestepping his ultimate responsibility as high king, and in this case, as general of the campaign. A true leader would not do that. And immature boy would. In the book, Peter was not an immature boy. He was a true leader. The film took that away from him.

 

[MissReepicheep]

You're welcome!

That is so right! Caspian did mess up the plan, but sometimes that's the way things go when you work together as a team. As high king, Peter had experienced many battles, and knew that things might go wrong. He doesn't have to take the blame for Caspian's actions, but he has to take responsibility for not pulling everyone back.

Had he ordered everyone out, and they had been trapped anyway, it would have been Caspian's fault. But Peter made a wrong choice. Even worse was the choice not to take responsibility for what he had done.

 

[Sir Tom the Dragon Knight]

You sound like we're talking about being a bad sport in a game or something. This is war, not baseball.

Thank you, Miss Reep!

Yes, an immature person who is not a fit leader would say, "My plan didn't work because you messed up! You are the reason for my failure."

A leader would evaluate the situation after Caspian's delay, decide whether there was any chance for success despite Caspian's mistake, and if not, choose to retreat and save as many lives as possible. If he still felt there was a possibility for success, he would go for it -- and if that failed, what he would not do is blame Caspian. He would say, "I weighed the odds and gambled we could still do it, but I was wrong. I made a mistake."

By shoving the blame on Caspian, Peter was sidestepping his ultimate responsibility as high king, and in this case, as general of the campaign. A true leader would not do that. And immature boy would. In the book, Peter was not an immature boy. He was a true leader. The film took that away from him.

You're welcome!

That is so right! Caspian did mess up the plan, but sometimes that's the way things go when you work together as a team. As high king, Peter had experienced many battles, and knew that things might go wrong. He doesn't have to take the blame for Caspian's actions, but he has to take responsibility for not pulling everyone back.

Had he ordered everyone out, and they had been trapped anyway, it would have been Caspian's fault. But Peter made a wrong choice. Even worse was the choice not to take responsibility for what he had done.

How many times do we have to say that Peter didn't throw a tantrum, he just yelled at Caspian. After the incident with the White Witch, he realised that it was partly his fault, but the main thing is that you're emphasizing too much on honest mistakes that even a seasoned warrior who had been in battle for years (like Peter) would make. After a battle where so many people died because of what started with Caspian's mistake, he's not gonna be "a good sport" and act like it was nobody else's fault. Naturally when anybody's overwhelmed with grief in that kind of situation, they'd be angry with the person who caused the change in circumstance which led to the tragedy at first.
You say Caspian was not faultless, but neither was Peter. Anybody who expects perfection from anybody is asking too much.

 

[MissReepicheep]

WELL DUH THIS ISN'T BASEBALL! I'm not saying that Peter should say, "Ah, well, half of our army is dead, but let's just but a good face on and congratulate everyone on doing their best." GOOD HEAVENS, NO!

Caspian should take his share of the blame. Peter should not take all of it- he doesn't deserve that. But he should be responsible for HIS actions, not simply taking everything out on Caspian and screaming in anger. It would be appropriate to "take the plank out of his own eye first". (Matthew 7:3) Then he could better deal with what Caspian had done.

Look, if I was Peter, I would have been super-mad at Caspian. The thing is... I'm NOT him. He is more mature (in the books) than I am now (he grew to be a man in Narnia before, and has retained all of his memories and maturity. I'm still a highschooler.) He has fought many battles, and has tasted defeat before.

I don't understand how you can think it is acceptable for a high king to display such behavior.

 

[MrBob]

"Many Narnians died in the movie because of Caspian. Caspian failed, not Peter. In Peter's situation (I know, projecting myself into the character again), I would have been a bit harsher on Caspian than Peter was. I would have beat the snot out of him for senselessly causing the massacre of so many good soldiers simply out of his own selfish ambition."

Sir Tom, You are right that Caspian royally screwed up by abandoning his post in the middle of a battle. Of course, Peter, Susan, and Caspian all messed up when they let Miraz get away from his bedroom.

That said, Peter should know that berating a soldier, expecially someone whom youa re trying to get into power, in front of everyone else is absolutely wrong. Peter basically told Caspian, in front of the Narnians, that he was not fit to lead them. That was petulant and beyond the pale.

Both Peter and Caspian were responsible for the failed raid and the dead soldiers. They also both acted like brats afterward by arguing in the open to the point of drawing swords on each other.

MrBob

 

[QueenLucyTheValient]

Alright, first and foremost, remember y'all, WE ARE NOT IN A WAR OVER THIS TOPIC!!!!!! It seems like ,Miss Reep and Inkspot, you two are getting so into this and upset that we have different opinions about this. It is not a war, you two, or rather, you three (because you, Sir Tom, are getting a little overdefensive yourself)
Mr. Bob, thank you for being so calm about this..
Now, to the topic at hand.. I never said that I liked that the writers changed the characters, in fact, I despise that fact, but I am making the best of it. It is not in our power to change what happened in this movie, and remember, it is a movie y'all, not real life. In reality, everything that happened in that movie that you guys hate us for liking is the writers fault, the actors were just following the script, and they pulled off their script fantastically. Now I know that this discussion is not about the actors or the screenwriters but I thought I would bring in that point..
But movie-wise, the Castle Raid was partly both of their faults. Peter could have done his best to call everyone off after Caspian messed up. Note the AFTER Caspian messed up. In my mind, it was his mistake that messed everything up in the first place. In my mind, Peter was not complaining at all. Complaining is what little 3 year olds do when they can not get their way. Even a frustrated teenage king would be mature enough to avoid complaning, and Peter was mature enough to avoid that. Remember that Caspian was the one who was pulled his sword at Peter first, Peter was just responding to a possible threat! Yes, Peter insulted Caspian, but HE WAS RIGHT IN EVERYTHING HE SAID!!!! He could have said it nicer, but the Telmarines have no right to invade Narnia, or to rule it at all. It was given to Caspian LATER by Aslan. But Peter couldn't see the future. Peter was doing his best, and losing his cool, while handling the situation. Yes, he was as mature as a 30 year old, but he was still a teenager. I am sure that he would have had the teenage emotions and so forth, because that was what he was, no matter how mature he was.. Peter DID change in the end, and that was the best part, when he realizes that Caspian is going to take his place and accepts it of his own free will. I am sorry that you do not see his change...
But remember that this is not a war zone, it is a discussion of our opinions on this matter. We do not have to change the other persons mind, just get them to see where you are coming from. I see where you guys are coming from, I think it's time that you see where we are coming from now.
PLEASE DO NOT TAKE OFFENSE AT OR GET DEFENSIVE BECAUSE OF WHAT I SAID!!!

 

[Sir Tom the Dragon Knight]

Alright, first and foremost, remember y'all, WE ARE NOT IN A WAR OVER THIS TOPIC!!!!!! It seems like ,Miss Reep and Inkspot, you two are getting so into this and upset that we have different opinions about this. It is not a war, you two, or rather, you three (because you, Sir Tom, are getting a little overdefensive yourself)
Mr. Bob, thank you for being so calm about this..
Now, to the topic at hand.. I never said that I liked that the writers changed the characters, in fact, I despise that fact, but I am making the best of it. It is not in our power to change what happened in this movie, and remember, it is a movie y'all, not real life. In reality, everything that happened in that movie that you guys hate us for liking is the writers fault, the actors were just following the script, and they pulled off their script fantastically. Now I know that this discussion is not about the actors or the screenwriters but I thought I would bring in that point..
But movie-wise, the Castle Raid was partly both of their faults. Peter could have done his best to call everyone off after Caspian messed up. Note the AFTER Caspian messed up. In my mind, it was his mistake that messed everything up in the first place. In my mind, Peter was not complaining at all. Complaining is what little 3 year olds do when they can not get their way. Even a frustrated teenage king would be mature enough to avoid complaning, and Peter was mature enough to avoid that. Remember that Caspian was the one who was pulled his sword at Peter first, Peter was just responding to a possible threat! Yes, Peter insulted Caspian, but HE WAS RIGHT IN EVERYTHING HE SAID!!!! He could have said it nicer, but the Telmarines have no right to invade Narnia, or to rule it at all. It was given to Caspian LATER by Aslan. But Peter couldn't see the future. Peter was doing his best, and losing his cool, while handling the situation. Yes, he was as mature as a 30 year old, but he was still a teenager. I am sure that he would have had the teenage emotions and so forth, because that was what he was, no matter how mature he was.. Peter DID change in the end, and that was the best part, when he realizes that Caspian is going to take his place and accepts it of his own free will. I am sorry that you do not see his change...
But remember that this is not a war zone, it is a discussion of our opinions on this matter. We do not have to change the other persons mind, just get them to see where you are coming from. I see where you guys are coming from, I think it's time that you see where we are coming from now.
PLEASE DO NOT TAKE OFFENSE AT OR GET DEFENSIVE BECAUSE OF WHAT I SAID!!!

*Clapping* Well said, your majesty!

 

[~Lava~]

Well, I finally got a chance to look back in on this thread and immediately the boxing gloves are coming off. You'll have to bear with me because I am rolling a months worth of comments into one post.

I never thought about it that way!! That Peter is upset at what the Telmarines are doing and have been doing for centuries to Narnia. Caspian is the only Telmarine around to vent his anger on. He should not have vented it out on Caspian but he did.

See the problem with this is that the same could be said about the Pevensies. But for Aslan's will, the Pevensies had just as little claim on the Narnian throne as Caspian the Conqueror. They both won it by conquest. The main difference is that the Pevensies were taking the throne at the will of Aslan. They ALL were Adam's Children and Aslan made a point to say this in the book.

It was rude and unnecessary, i agree. But, Peter had just been humiliated, if you think about it... He was losing in that duel between him and Caspian, and in front of the Narnians and his sister, Lucy, and later the rest of them, as well. That may have injured his pride a little, and while he should not have said that, he did...

Broken pride to a King of 15+ years is of very little consequence. And showing Caspian winning is actually way off beam. Peter was a smart swordsman. He knew tricks that would have baffled Caspian. He had been at sword fighting longer than Caspian had been alive. Peter would have won just like Ed beat Trumpkin.

It is yet another proof that the filmmakers thought him incapable of being civil in his speech towards a perceived rival. Just because he was humiliated doesn't mean he can insult somebody.

Agreed

It IS hard to `walk away` if you`re in a crowded tunnel located about sixty feet below street level!

The crowd makes it all the more easy to walk away. He could have just disappeared into it and be gone.

I just want to say one thing: The siege on Miraz's castle actually was in the book. However, the Pevensies weren't there to experience it. In the book, the siege was Caspian's idea, and the only reason it failed was because Wimbleweather was a little too slow to follow an order.
Still, I think the siege turned out great in the movie.

No, Reep wanted to lay seige to the Castle during the big discussion, but that plan never made it past the mention when Dr. Cornelius showed up.

Like I said before, the night raid was as good of a strategy as the griffin "bombing runs" in the first movie. However, Peter as the person with experience in Battle should have been the first to pull out when things started going south. He should not have had to been told that it was going south. Susan should not have had to plead with him to get him to turn back.

Additionally, the fact that Susan asked "what was it this time" means that she knew it wasn't the first fight Peter jumped into And the fact that Ed went to Peter's school would have given the other knowledge of Peter's dealings with his schoolmates.

Yes, Caspian bears blame in the failure of the night raid but Peter had no excuse to goad him and yell at him about it. I agree with PotW about projecting our feelings upon Peter.

If you want my full feelings about the whole Peter situation my posts are in the 6-11 pages of this thread. Yes, I still think they both behaved like Rabadash.

 

[MissReepicheep]

^^I agree with every single thing you just said!

QLTV, you're right, I was getting mad. I wasn't mad at you, I was mad at Sir Tom. I felt like his kinda sarcastic comment about baseball was an insult, but regardless I should approach this debate with a lot less fire.

And I often get insulted over things that nobody intended as an insult. Sir Tom may have been trying to make me mad, but more likely he just said something that I would have thought clever had I been the one saying it.

Does this make sense?

 

[inkspot]

I certainly wasn't mad, and I am sorry if I gave the impression that I was. I think I am feeling like the Professor -- "What do they teach in the schools these days?" -- he wasn't mad, but he did find it incomprehensible that the Pevensies seemed incapable of using logic. He was a great friend of theirs as the books show, and a guide and mentor for them ... so I think his bewilderment at their seeming lack of logic was acceptable/forgivable.

Maybe it takes an old fogey to realize what true leadership is, and that's why I'm not able to make my point clearly to younger folks. It's something you maybe have to experience for yourself. A true leader does not have the luxury to indulge his own feelings and blame the lower man for the problem. A true leader controls his emotions and accepts the responsibility that is rightly his. Peter in the book did this, and was able to do it because of the skills he had developed as a king in Narnia. Peter in the film did not do this, and by behaving like an angry child instead of a true leader, he showed himself not to be a leader.

There's no way to excuse what he did unless you say: "Considering he was just a 15-year-old kid and had been through a bloody battle..." This only makes my point: the only way you can justify his poor leadership skills is to make excuses that apply to a 21st Century teen, and do not apply to the High King of Narnia.

 

[inkspot]

I certainly wasn't mad, and I am sorry if I gave the impression that I was. I think I am feeling like the Professor -- "What do they teach in the schools these days?" -- he wasn't mad, but he did find it incomprehensible that the Pevensies seemed incapable of using logic. He was a great friend of theirs as the books show, and a guide and mentor for them ... so I think his bewilderment at their seeming lack of logic was acceptable/forgivable.

Maybe it takes an old fogey to realize what true leadership is, and that's why I'm not able to make my point clearly to younger folks. It's something you maybe have to experience for yourself. A true leader does not have the luxury to indulge his own feelings and blame the lower man for the problem. A true leader controls his emotions and accepts the responsibility that is rightly his. Peter in the book did this, and was able to do it because of the skills he had developed as a king in Narnia. Peter in the film did not do this, and by behaving like an angry child instead of a true leader, he showed himself not to be a leader.

There's no way to excuse what he did unless you say: "Considering he was just a 15-year-old kid and had been through a bloody battle..." This only makes my point: the only way you can justify his poor leadership skills is to make excuses that apply to a 21st Century teen, and do not apply to the High King of Narnia.

 

[MissReepicheep]

Yes, you certainly do know more about this than the rest of us. Well-said!

 

[Sir Tom the Dragon Knight]

QLTV, you're right, I was getting mad. I wasn't mad at you, I was mad at Sir Tom. I felt like his kinda sarcastic comment about baseball was an insult, but regardless I should approach this debate with a lot less fire.

And I often get insulted over things that nobody intended as an insult. Sir Tom may have been trying to make me mad, but more likely he just said something that I would have thought clever had I been the one saying it.

Does this make sense?

I wasn't trying to make anyone mad. I guess I just tend to have that effect some times. I appologize, and I shall sheath my metaphorical sword for now.

I think it would have been harder on him than the rest of you are expecting because he had been back in our world for a year before he was braught back to Narnia. When in our world, he obviously had trouble adjusting back to living as a kid, and he really didn't like the lack of respect he was getting from people. Honestly, wouldn't it feel like quite a shock after being a king for decades, and suddenly everybody acts like you're just another random person?

 

[MissReepicheep]

Yeah, I do that too, so I can't blame you. I'm sorry that I got upset.

 

[inkspot]

Yes, you certainly do know more about this than the rest of us. Well-said!

I dunno about that ... ... but I do have a different perspective.

I think it would have been harder on him than the rest of you are expecting because he had been back in our world for a year before he was braught back to Narnia. When in our world, he obviously had trouble adjusting back to living as a kid, and he really didn't like the lack of respect he was getting from people. Honestly, wouldn't it feel like quite a shock after being a king for decades, and suddenly everybody acts like you're just another random person?

This is what happened in the film, yes, but there is no evidence in the book that Peter had any trouble adjusting to England or returning to Narnia. He remained in both places what he was in Narnia in the Golden Age: a noble king, whether he had a kingdom or not. This is what I am saying: the filmmakers got it horribly wrong. They turned Peter into a 21st Century teenager who had forgotten his lessons from growing up as a good king in Narnia and behaved like a spoiled child.

In this, I think we agree: if Peter were immature and poorly adjusted, then he would have behaved just as he did in the film, and he would have been entitled to no one's respect.

If he had retained his spirit and nobility from reigning as a king in Narnia (as he did in the book), he would not have behaved as he did in the film, and he would have been entitled to respect as High King, as he was in the book.

 

[QueenLucyTheValient]

honestly, I like bookpeter LOADS better than moviepeter. The only reason I am arguing his case is because he does change and I can understand how the change the writers made would make the movie more relatable for 21st century teens... But I also think that if they kept Peter the way he was in the book, people would have a role model, not someone they can relate to. Someone like bookpeter would be a good person to be.
But I am mad at the writers for changing Peter. Anyone could have handled that kind of dramatic change loads better than Peter did, at least, if they were who he had been.
I noticed that even in the BBC Narnia movies, Peter was upset about not being in Narnia. When they all started to talk about Narnia, he said that he did not want to talk about it. Honestly, bookpeter made mistakes, but he handled himself better than MoviePeter. MoviePeter did act better than a lot of 21st century teens would have, though. A 21st century teen (one that was like a lot of teens today, not one who believed in God and did not have the problems of a 'normal teen') would have complained, whined, fussed, demanded their way, and so on and so forth. MoviePeter did none of that, except for maybe demanding that he was to be respected.

 

[MissReepicheep]

I understand that bookPeter had his faults. Of course he longed to go back to Narnia; who wouldn't? The problem is that he decided to act like a jerk because of it.

Maybe I'm just weird, but I absolutely cannot relate to the changed characters of Peter and Susan.

I have a dreadful temper, but I could control myself better than Peter did.

Guess what- not every single girl in the world's greatest troubles revolve around crushes. GUESS WHAT MOVIEMAKERS, THE STUPED WAY YOU CLICHED SUSAN'S CHARACTER IS ABSOLUTELY NOT ACCEPTABLE. I THOUGHT THAT I WOULD BE SAFE IN NARNIA FROM HAVING TO GAG OVER STUPED CRUSHES AND PETTY TEENAGE DRAMA.

Sorry, but I needed that.

Note: I misspelled 'stupid' on purpose. Long story.

 

[QueenLucyTheValient]

I agree with you, MissR, about Susan. That was sort of strange and while it did add some humor at times, it was just out of place. And with MoviePeter, I really can relate to him with certain aspects, such as his feeling responsible for Narnia, his siblings, and so forth. But I hope I would not be able to relate to him as far as his temper is concerned. His temper and pride were the major problems..
Though with Susan, I feel that that sort of showed how she was going to turn out, and that in the end, she will not return to Narnia, or go to Aslan's country if she keeps up with the attitude she had. I still do not like it though.
But back to BookPetervsMoviePeter. BookPeter was human as well. He made his mistakes, but apologized about them in the end. MoviePEter made a lot more mistakes and did a lot more stupid things than was necessary. Just I did not let that ruin the movie, and I saw that he Changed in the end. I am sorry that you guys do not see that at all, because it is there, and clearly displayed too.

 

[~Lava~]

Unfortunately, the cliched part is the more in line with bookSusan then the other changes. Unfortunately, they also made Peter and Caspian into exactly the type of people Susan pal-ed around with when she became silly.

Inky, if a person my age can relate to you and agree 100% then you can rest assured that us younger people are not going to somewhere in a hand basket.

I also can agree with MissR. I found myself struggling to relate with the changed characters. They were not my idea of heroes. I was bullied as child and Peter and Caspian behaved in very much the same way as my bully classmates. They did not even behave like modern teens. They had the same demeanor as the 3, 4, and 5th grade kids who treated me like dirt because they could.

 

[MrBob]

"I think it would have been harder on him than the rest of you are expecting because he had been back in our world for a year before he was braught back to Narnia. When in our world, he obviously had trouble adjusting back to living as a kid, and he really didn't like the lack of respect he was getting from people. Honestly, wouldn't it feel like quite a shock after being a king for decades, and suddenly everybody acts like you're just another random person?"

Sir Tom, so why was Peter the only one affected? What about Lucy? She went from Queen, occasional leader in battles, front line nurse, and the person whom many princes admired to be their queen to a preteen girl who can't even stay up as late as she wants.

Edmund went through a similar transformation, from King and leader in battles to a preteen (or early teen) boy who didn't have much of a say in his own life. Susan went through the same things so why should Peter be the one who is affected? Because he was the High King? That isn't as impressive as what his siblings dealth with, which were vitrually the same things.

"Mr. Bob, thank you for being so calm about this"

QueenLucy, as you said, this is just a topic about a fictional story. It isn't that important, though I don't want to deny others their own passionate opinions. By the way, was the meant to be sarcastic or happy?

MrBob