Are the Emerald Witch and the White Witch the same person.

Dernhelm said:
I think it's mentioned in the book that those words were carved for a king of the overland—Rillian explains that to them, trying to convince them that the words were a coincidence, and not meant to guide them. If I'm remembering that correctly, those lines can't really be used as evidence. I still have an inclination to think that they're the same though. :p Mostly because—where else do you get a witch like that? Hags are one thing. Witches are not (to my way of thinking) a natural part of Narnia, and there is no evidence of contact with worlds other than ours after MN.
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I read the book recently and I don't remember that being talked about a King in Overland.
 
Read carefully the section where they're just brought into Rilian. Jill foolishly blurts out their mission, and Rilian professes no knowledge of any Rilian. They are crestfallen, and offer the Third Sign as evidence that they're on the right track, and he tells them what the Witch told him about it.
 
The poem can't be referring to LotGK.

"Though under earth and throneless now I be." That is the problem with considering it to be Green Witch. She has a throne. She is Queen of the Underworld--she had a throne.

For me, it can only refer to one of two people, either it was a random Giant king or to Father Time himself. If it was for Jadis, that would be more proof that she and the LotGK were two different people based on my above reasoning.

MrBob
 
I wondered that myself as I was reading the series growing up. Unfortunately, we know from Lewis' account of how Jadis arrived in Narnia that she had no family to bring - they'd all been wiped out in Charn. I also postulated that she might be an apprentice or rival (or both) - theories that have both been discussed in this thread. Unfortunately, there's no textual support for any of these suppositions.
 
I remember reading that the White Witch went into hiding in the north for a while before she took Narnia. Its possible she had trained the Green Witch, or they had met, etc. before she left.
 
MrBob said:
The poem can't be referring to LotGK.

"Though under earth and throneless now I be." That is the problem with considering it to be Green Witch. She has a throne. She is Queen of the Underworld--she had a throne.
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Yes, but she really isnt technically a Queen there. She wants the throne of Narnia...and the ability to rule the world.

In underland...she basically sits in the dark and orders around her little goblin minions.
 
However, there is another explanation given by Rillian. I think that that does eliminate that particular consideration for the identification of the Green Witch...
 
I tend to think that Rilian is right--the verse is simply a boast from a long-dead king (or queen). But of course there is no way to be sure, since there is no other canon explanation (that I recall?) and what we hear is Rilian telling the kids what the Green Lady may or may not have told him, which may or may not have been what she actually heard/knew, and which may or may not be true.

I suppose Lewis would say that he has given us enough and we should fill in that particular gap ourselves. :p
 
Josh said:
Yes, but she really isnt technically a Queen there. She wants the throne of Narnia...and the ability to rule the world.

In underland...she basically sits in the dark and orders around her little goblin minions.
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Well, she calls herself the Queen of Underland, and has those around her refer to her in the same manner. She may not be quite the queen she wants to be yet, but she definitely considers herself a queen.

The real question - and one tangential to the question here - is why Narnia? Anyone thirsting for real power in that world would logically choose something more robust - like Calormen. There they understood raw power, and had she succeeded in overthrowing the Tisroc she would have been served as (effectively) a goddess. Why settle for a penny ante little kingdom like Narnia?

I've been percolating a fanfic about this. I think I can pull it together without violating the canon, or the spirit of the books. I'll see what I can do.
 
Dernhelm said:
I think it's mentioned in the book that those words were carved for a king of the overland—Rillian explains that to them, trying to convince them that the words were a coincidence, and not meant to guide them. If I'm remembering that correctly, those lines can't really be used as evidence. I still have an inclination to think that they're the same though. :p Mostly because—where else do you get a witch like that? Hags are one thing. Witches are not (to my way of thinking) a natural part of Narnia, and there is no evidence of contact with worlds other than ours after MN.
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Have we converted you to the land of confusion, contradiction and craziness then??? :D

I don't think that poem refers to Jadis or Green Lady. The comment people have been refering to is:

'"We had been told to look for a message on the stones of the City Ruinous," said Scrubb. "And we saw the words UNDER ME."
The Knight laughed even more heartily than before. "You were the most deceived," he said. "Those words meant nothing to your purpose. Had you but asked my Lady, she could have given you better counsel. For those words are all that is left of a longer script, which in ancient times, as she well remembers, expressed this verse:

Though under Earth and throneless now I be,
Yet, while I lived all Earth was under me.

From which it is plain that some great king of the ancient giants, who lies buried there, caused this boast to be cut in the stone above his sepulchre; though the breaking up of some stones, and the carrying away of others for new buildings, and the filling of the cuts with rubble, has left only two words that can still be read."'
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We know then that it was a king, who lies buried underneath that it refers to. I would argue then that it is Father Time himself because as we see, not long after the travellers go underground and meet the men of Bism they see Father time and the Earthman explains:

"This is old Father Time, who once was a King in Overland," said the Warden.
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I would like to draw attention to one other point in the first quote:

Had you but asked my Lady, she could have given you better counsel. For those words are all that is left of a longer script, which in ancient times, as she well remembers,
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This to me suggests that the Green Lady is ancient - if she remembers something from ancient times.

...maybe when she was zipping around under her pseudonym??? :D
 
That was that connection! I knew there was a reason to think the King was Father Time! :D (No, you've not converted me--I'm undecided, as always. ;))
 
Or mabye the Emerald Witch lied about who the words were referring to. Either way it suggests she's been around awhile...mabye long enough to be...THE WHITE WITCH!!!!!
 
Mwahahahahahaha!

(You guys just don't give up, do you? Kind of like those moles that keep popping up, and you have to keep bopping them on the head!)
 
Lol. They don't.:D

I know people said that the White Witch still survived when they relate it to how the devil is still alive. But this is different. Aslan literally ripped her throat out. Although some may beg to differ(*cough cough 'everyone who thinks they're the same' cough cough*) I don't think that she could come back to life from that.

(no one say that a hag could've brought her back like almost happened in PC)...wait...there weren't any humans around, so that couldn't've happened.

The guy who was the descendant of the doctor who fixed John Wilkes Booth's leg was just on American Idol.
 
I am all for textual evidence, but let's be clear. LWW says:

Then with a roar that shook all Narnia from the western lamp-post to the shores of the eastern sea the great beast flung himself upon the White Witch. Lucy saw her face lifted towards him for one second with an expression of terror and amazement. Then Lion and Witch had rolled over together but with the Witch underneath...
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That supports a lot of interpretations, but nowhere does it say Aslan ripped her throat out, or bit her head off, or anything else.

And to be a bit of canon stickler, all we know for sure is that Rilian tells us the story of the verse, which he says he learned from the Green Lady. We don't know that he's telling the truth; we don't know that she told all/any of what she knew; we don't know that what she told was right to begin with. (That is, he could be lying, she could be lying, or someone could be mistaken.)

(no one say that a hag could've brought her back like almost happened in PC)...wait...there weren't any humans around, so that couldn't've happened.
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Wait, what? Sorry, I'm just really confused by this statement. Are you saying there weren't humans in Narnia? Or that hags are human? Or...what, exactly?
 
My two cents' worth

I never even thought about the Emerald Witch and the White Witch being the same person until I read a newer edition of the Chronicles of Narnia--the one with all the character descriptions in the front. When they said Jadis and the Emerald Witch were one and the same, that threw me for a complete loop.

I searched for connections after that, and the only one I found was that when Jill and Eustace and Rilian break through into Narnia it's winter, the same season the White Witch preferred. My theory on why winter was so essential to the White Witch is because the silver apple tree doesn't bear fruit in the winter, which fruit is "a horror to her." If this is the case with the Emerald Witch as well, then it is either because 1. she is the White Witch or 2. she also ate an apple from the garden. Of course, it could also have been a coincidence that the tunnel was almost done in the middle of winter and she doesn't mind the fruit at all.:rolleyes:

The one thing that bugs me about the whole "The White and Emerald witches are the same person" theory is that Aslan--all powerful--defeated the White Witch, while Rilian--a prince but also just a human--was able to defeat the Emerald Witch. Thus I think the witches are different people, with the Emerald Witch being a lesser but still great source of evil.
 
It's that "character description" that has confused so many people. It wasn't written by Lewis, it was written by some editor's hack who hadn't read the books, so don't be deceived by that.

And don't think that it's necessary to eat an apple from the Garden in order to be immortal. Many creatures are immortal by nature.
 
PrinceOfTheWest said:
Mwahahahahahaha!

(You guys just don't give up, do you? Kind of like those moles that keep popping up, and you have to keep bopping them on the head!)
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Haha!!! :D I truly am the greatest of the 'Whack-a-moles'!!!

But seriously - I'm not messing with anyone. I do think there is sufficient evidence in the books to suggest Jadis was both the White Witch and the Green Lady. I concede there's nothing conclusive - but i think that's the same the other way.
 
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