I really didn't care for her as the WW—I don't think she'd do any better as the LotGK. :-/ Unless they did her very differently. I know make up and contumes can change the effect completely, as you can see in the BBC. Maybe with dark hair...?
Are the Emerald Witch and the White Witch the same person.
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Animus Wyrmis
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I think there are a couple different conversations going on--some people are approaching this in terms of what Lewis might have intended, and some people are approaching it in terms of what the canon (ie the books only) may or may not support. I tend to think that whatever Lewis intended to do is sort of moot--it's whatever he did, as shown on the page, that really matters.
It's also difficult, because then you have other questions: if Lewis didn't know, what does that mean? If Lewis, say, really intended them to be the same but didn't intend people to pick up on it, what does that mean? If Lewis intended it to be an open question, what do we do then? And for that matter, it's really difficult to try to decide why he wrote what he wrote, and what he meant by it--I mean, we've just had two theories about why Lewis only briefly connected them (he wanted it to remain a mystery vs he wanted to immediately tell us we were dealing with a villain), and they point to wildly different conclusions about intent!
Josh--Dernhelm is entirely right (thanks, Dernhelm!): I was indeed using Jadis vs the White Witch to differentiate between the two books. Sorry for confusing you!
Pianoplayer888: Oh, movie canon isn't canon. And I am still confused--why would having no humans in the north of Narnia matter? Are we told that you need humans to bring back a witch? (Are hags even human?)
I'm with the rest of you, though, on casting: I can't imagine they'd cast Tilda as the LotGK. I don't think she looks the part. (I also think that as there is nothing I consider conclusive evidence either way in the books, there should be nothing conclusive in the movies! But that's just me.)
The Chronicles of Narnia...well, I wouldn't call them kids' books because a great many adults are equally passionate about them. However they were written with kids in mind.
That being said, I would imagine that Lewis would want kids to think that when Aslan solves a problem, he really solves it. I can't imagine he'd like or even approve of today's horror movies that always end with some hint that the villain will come back yet again. There is horror in LWW, but the horror ends cleanly and completely.
While he as an adult may have entertained notions of this being some sort of persistant Sataness, I don't think he would have written it into the stories. He might have nudged a few hints in there for the few people that would have been disappointed NOT to think it was the same person. Like some of you folk.
That being said, I would imagine that Lewis would want kids to think that when Aslan solves a problem, he really solves it. I can't imagine he'd like or even approve of today's horror movies that always end with some hint that the villain will come back yet again. There is horror in LWW, but the horror ends cleanly and completely.
While he as an adult may have entertained notions of this being some sort of persistant Sataness, I don't think he would have written it into the stories. He might have nudged a few hints in there for the few people that would have been disappointed NOT to think it was the same person. Like some of you folk.
wow this has been an amazing discussion. i never even thought of the emerald witch being jadis and now i love the idea.. makes the later half of the chronicles just as scary when i think that the emerald witch is as big a threat to narnia as the white witch was in lww.
i love the whole transformation learning curve..
as far as if they should cast tilda in the silver chair... i think they should use another actress. but when she is defeated.. and turns into a snake... while transforming from emerald witch to snake.. what if right in between she transforms into jadis? so we can see that she IS jadis,, but has gone to such lengths to disguise herself..... OR what if she turns into jadis AFTER the snake's head is cut off...(or during) or however it is killed? then we see that it was her after all... and she had been masquerading as a snake and then on top of that, as a person...
i love the whole transformation learning curve..
as far as if they should cast tilda in the silver chair... i think they should use another actress. but when she is defeated.. and turns into a snake... while transforming from emerald witch to snake.. what if right in between she transforms into jadis? so we can see that she IS jadis,, but has gone to such lengths to disguise herself..... OR what if she turns into jadis AFTER the snake's head is cut off...(or during) or however it is killed? then we see that it was her after all... and she had been masquerading as a snake and then on top of that, as a person...
cor, I think you're stretching things. As in reeeeeally stretching things. There's no way you can cast the Emerald Witch as some kind of massive mega-threat overhanging the last half of the Chronicles. She's a minor player, a bit part, in one of the books. There aren't even many details provided about her. Give it up.
Josh
New member
No, specifically stating she is Jadis is going mabye a bit too far. IF the director believes they are the same they should only hint at it.
Here is an example of what they could do.
Jill: There's Aslan!
Emerald Witch: Aslan? What a pretty name? What does it mean?
Eustace: He is the Great Lion who called us out of our own world.
Emerald Witch: I've never heard of such a thing.
Rillian: ITS TRUE!! He established the Kings and Queens of old and killed the White Witch.
Emerald Witch: Killed the White Witch? Thats interesting...(she looks towards a mirror and gives a little smile)....very interesting. And what did you say this Aslan was?
Eustace: A lion
Emerald Witch: What is a lion?
Here is an example of what they could do.
Jill: There's Aslan!
Emerald Witch: Aslan? What a pretty name? What does it mean?
Eustace: He is the Great Lion who called us out of our own world.
Emerald Witch: I've never heard of such a thing.
Rillian: ITS TRUE!! He established the Kings and Queens of old and killed the White Witch.
Emerald Witch: Killed the White Witch? Thats interesting...(she looks towards a mirror and gives a little smile)....very interesting. And what did you say this Aslan was?
Eustace: A lion
Emerald Witch: What is a lion?
Oh, I like that, Josh! If they are going to play it that she's the same person, that would be a cool way to do it.
but they defintiely can't get Tilda for the film; she's just not the vivacious thing we meet on the road to Harfang ... I always see the Emerald Witch as a red-head for some reason: younger Nicole Kidman. But that's a different thread.
but they defintiely can't get Tilda for the film; she's just not the vivacious thing we meet on the road to Harfang ... I always see the Emerald Witch as a red-head for some reason: younger Nicole Kidman. But that's a different thread.
Pianoplayer888
New member
With the needing humans, I'm again going off of the movies, in which Nikabrick(sp?) tries to bring back the White Witch. The witch said that she needed one droop of Adam's blood. I can't remember if it's in the book or not.
It's not in the book. In the book, the summoning never even begins - Caspian and his loyalists put a stop to it first, with the aid of Peter and Edmund. It was a good idea, though (one of the few that got done properly in Caspian).
Animus Wyrmis
New member
PotW is right. In the book, we essentially get Nikabrik, the hag, and the werewolf talking about calling on the Witch (since Aslan has failed them), with some arguing about how bad the Witch was (ie, Miraz is bad but the Witch is worse). Then Cornelius complains that this is all silly, because the Witch is dead, and we get this:
That grey and terrible voice which had spoken only once before said, "Oh, is she?" And then the shrill, whining voice began, "Oh, bless his heart, his dear little Majesty needn't mind about the White Lady - that's what we call her - being dead. The Worshipful Master Doctor is only making game of a poor old woman like me when he says that. Sweet Mastery Doctor, learned Master Doctor, who ever heard of a witch that really died? You can always get them back." "Call her up," said the grey voice. "We are all ready. Draw the circle. Prepare the blue fire."
And that's it--Peter and Edmund come in and stop it. The movie's version was brilliant and exciting (and actually makes sense in context, because you don't get the sense that Nikabrik is really going to wait around for Caspian's approval if he can possibly help it), but it's not in the books. All we know is that you need a circle and some blue fire, but it's not even clear if that's hag/werewolf-magic in general or specific to this spell or certain spells.
S
sqjj
Guest
Thats the problem with the PC book too much talk not enough action. Nikabrik wouldnt have waited for about 30 minutes of arguing to start his plan. If they really needed Caspian they would have forced him(which they sorta did in the movie).
However, did anyone else kinda notice the Sorcery and Sudden Vengance scene feels rather random in the movie? Cause in the film there was no lead up to it, and it really wasnt mentioned after. They have the night raid. The hag tries to bring back the witch, but she is stopped. They then go back to worrying about Miraz. In the book the scene was vital since it is when Peter first meets Caspian. But thats okay though, cause it was a great scene in the movie.
I think that the Emerald Witch could be the White Witch. Cause Jadis is like Satan, and Satan doesnt die untill long after the End Times.
However, did anyone else kinda notice the Sorcery and Sudden Vengance scene feels rather random in the movie? Cause in the film there was no lead up to it, and it really wasnt mentioned after. They have the night raid. The hag tries to bring back the witch, but she is stopped. They then go back to worrying about Miraz. In the book the scene was vital since it is when Peter first meets Caspian. But thats okay though, cause it was a great scene in the movie.
I think that the Emerald Witch could be the White Witch. Cause Jadis is like Satan, and Satan doesnt die untill long after the End Times.
Pianoplayer888
New member
I still think that having Aslan literally kill her, and not just defeat her, like Christ did the devil, means something. In the books of the Bible, it doesn't talk about Christ literally killing the devil when He went down to hell, but it talks about Aslan literally killing the Witch when he jumped on her in LWW.
in terms of my suggestion of jadis being white witch i know its not canon, but i think it will make a better cinematic choice (but to have her disguised by someone else playing her as i said). dont get me wrong i LOVE the books.. always have,, but i also LOVE the movies,, and having worked for over 20 years in the entertainment industry, i dont believe in keeping to the book exactly. books are a different form to a film. therefore i liked prince caspian alot.. except the line from peter saying we've waited long enough for aslan.. other than that i loved his character, its development and arc. i think the movie would have been VERY BORING if he was just a nice person all through it. back to jadis.. having established her as such an evil threat (and now being voted best literature villain) i cant see how the emerald witch will really be much of an antagonist in the movie version. i dont think they should come out and say its jadis in the trailer.. but to reveal it as a twist when she transforms AFTER HER DEATH. as long as they keep to the spirit of the books i am happy. (which i believe they have) the spirit of the books = aslan good. villain bad. kids on journey from bad to good. pretty basic stuff really.
kilendil
New member
Cor,
Still, that's a lot of transformation in a time span of just a few seconds to maybe a couple of minutes. Green witch to serpent to dead serpent to White Witch. I know that fast visual effects to me just gives me a headache.
Aside from that, I think that the memory of the White Witch is enough. Let them talk about the White Witch in the parliament of owls (don't they do that in the book?). Each book in the Chronicles of Narnia has a different villain, aside from The Magician's Nephew. I feel that's what C.S. Lewis was driving at, that evil must be defeated, whatever its form. And evil takes on many forms and influences many people.
Still, that's a lot of transformation in a time span of just a few seconds to maybe a couple of minutes. Green witch to serpent to dead serpent to White Witch. I know that fast visual effects to me just gives me a headache.
Aside from that, I think that the memory of the White Witch is enough. Let them talk about the White Witch in the parliament of owls (don't they do that in the book?). Each book in the Chronicles of Narnia has a different villain, aside from The Magician's Nephew. I feel that's what C.S. Lewis was driving at, that evil must be defeated, whatever its form. And evil takes on many forms and influences many people.
Animus Wyrmis
New member
That assumes Nikabrik has the same motives in both movie and book. In the movie I got the feeling he wanted the White Witch instead of Caspian and (more to the point) hadn't particularly wanted Caspian to begin with--he just needed a man/boy to bring her back, and Caspian was their best bet.
In the book he's more ambivalent about Caspian, but I still sort of got the impression he wanted the approval of (at least some) of Caspian's council before unleashing the White Witch--and we're not told whether he intends the White Witch to rule (alone? With Caspian?) or to help them kill Miraz or what. Had he simply wanted to bring back the White Witch (and not cared about the rest of the council, or even hoped for their approval and help), I think he probably would have done it alone, while Caspian and the others were occupied. The fact that he does try it with them first and does try to talk them around (and doesn't try to get Caspian on his own or whatever), combined with the fact that it's the werewolf/hag who stop conversation and start the magic, makes me think that he wants them involved [although I don't know whether he wants them involved in the decision-making process, for approval or so he feels better or for company, or wants them there when the Witch shows up].
/off-topic
theorangejello
New member
I always assumed they were different.
Hmmmm.... I think I may have my head stamped on for suggesting this, but one thing I've always thought is that the bird 'roosting' in the tree in the garden in MN is actually Jadis.
I don't know what it is that makes me think this but, why else is it there in the story?? It seems to have no purpose. Digory notices it watching him, he turns round and then turns back to see Jadis. If this is the case that they're the same it shows that Jadis could transform.
I know this is verging on facile conjecture but I've always wondered about that bird - why is it there, if it's not Jadis?
I don't know what it is that makes me think this but, why else is it there in the story?? It seems to have no purpose. Digory notices it watching him, he turns round and then turns back to see Jadis. If this is the case that they're the same it shows that Jadis could transform.
I know this is verging on facile conjecture but I've always wondered about that bird - why is it there, if it's not Jadis?
MRW
New member
I've never thought that the Phoenix was Jadis. It was there to guard the orchard, if I remember correctly, thus I've always assumed it was in Aslan's employ, particularly since it's mentioned as one of the creatures that got into Aslan's country in the very next book -- and it made its home in the garden there. Lewis stuck pretty close to traditional mythology, and traditionally there's only one Phoenix.
MrBob
Well-known member
"And that's it--Peter and Edmund come in and stop it."
They don't just come to the rescue, Animus. The enter in the middle of the fight, after Trumpkin kills the hag and the werewolf attacks Caspian. I'm not sure how much Perter and Edmund acually do other than Edmund sitting on Trumpkin thinking he was Nikibrik.
"Thats the problem with the PC book too much talk not enough action."
sqjj, TSC is not much action either. There is a lot of walking and a long, dark trek by foot and boat. The best filmmakers can make that interesting.
"Hmmmm.... I think I may have my head stamped on for suggesting this, but one thing I've always thought is that the bird 'roosting' in the tree in the garden in MN is actually Jadis."
whb, the phoenix was merely a lookout to see who actually does violate the rules. Digory sees the phoenix, turns around and within seconds sees Jadis with the core of an apple she just finishd eating. I doubt she could have eaten it that quickly.
MrBob
They don't just come to the rescue, Animus. The enter in the middle of the fight, after Trumpkin kills the hag and the werewolf attacks Caspian. I'm not sure how much Perter and Edmund acually do other than Edmund sitting on Trumpkin thinking he was Nikibrik.
"Thats the problem with the PC book too much talk not enough action."
sqjj, TSC is not much action either. There is a lot of walking and a long, dark trek by foot and boat. The best filmmakers can make that interesting.
"Hmmmm.... I think I may have my head stamped on for suggesting this, but one thing I've always thought is that the bird 'roosting' in the tree in the garden in MN is actually Jadis."
whb, the phoenix was merely a lookout to see who actually does violate the rules. Digory sees the phoenix, turns around and within seconds sees Jadis with the core of an apple she just finishd eating. I doubt she could have eaten it that quickly.
MrBob